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The World Runs with Friction

09/10/2017 1:51 AM

What happens if we have zero friction between the piston and engine cylinder? Will that affect the engine in any way? It may sound weird but take it as an ideal case.

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#1

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 2:13 AM

It will improve the overall engine efficiency a bit but not as much as many seem to think it would.

If there was lot of friction to begin with the aluminum pistons would wear out pretty fast but in a typical engine they can easily see several Billion strokes and still have life left in them.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 3:43 AM

The majority or the wewr would not be to the piston, but instead the piston ring....and piston rings are not typically aluminum.

Some blocks are aluminum. Most of those have cylinder sleeves or liners made of another material...typically iron based. The aluminum blocks that run sleeveless typically run hypereutectic aluminum alloys with a excess of silicon. The piston rings are mostly sliding on silicon.

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#2

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 2:25 AM

Just look up the coefficient of friction for lubricated metals of the types used in the piston rings and cylinder walls.

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#3

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 3:21 AM

Well you would improve the efficiency if it was possible, but the friction is a consequence of the seal, and the seal is necessary for containing the expansion during the power stroke....as the heat generated causes the metal parts to expand the seal must be flexible which makes the rings necessary...

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#6
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Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 9:46 AM

You imply my concern. With zero ring friction the seal on the combustion gasses can easily be compromised. If the gasses can now escape around this orifice then less force will be present on the top of the piston wall. The question now is will the net force on the piston pin be more or less with blow by around the rings. I suspect it will be less because when ring failures now happen there is less power available and a repair bill in sight. Now if some clever mechanical engineer can find a way to maintain a seal through the very large pressure range that happens in an ICE combustion chamber and do this with zero friction then more force might exist at the piston pin. I suspect it will be a small difference though.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 11:16 AM

There are ways around sliding seals.

Bellows would be one way. The bellows wouldn't even need to offer low resistance to the motion, so long as the q factor was high, i.e. acting more like a metal spring than a hydraulic shock absorber. With bellows designs could be free to largely trade sliding friction for rolling friction. Decent longevity would probably be difficult to attain without excessive tradeoffs in other important areas.

Using a liquid piston would be another way to maintain a seal on a changing volume avoiding sliding friction.

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#37
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Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 1:58 PM

True, if there were no friction, there would be no liquid or gas viscosity either. Oil would run out of the locations formerly needing lubrication, but it would not matter, since "there is no friction in this imaginary world".

Pumps would perform much better, as there would be no such thing as dynamic head pressure, only static pressure.

Piston rings would no longer seal in the gases of combustion, since there is no resistance to gas flow. Valve blow-by would be a giant issue, since sealing surfaces would no longer function as designed. There is a big difference between a positive surface seal, and a dynamic seal (valves and rings).

There would be no transportation on roadways, since the roadways would offer no friction to tires in contact with them, no control, and no means of braking.

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#31
In reply to #3

Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 11:02 AM

Actually, there is an error in this representation.

Oil is pumped up through the connecting rod, then through a gallery on the piston pin, then through a gallery through the piston and then returns to the oil pan, after the pressurized oil has been scrapped off of the cylinder wall by the oil control ring.

The representation appears to show the oil entering the piston oil orifices after being scrapped off the cylinder wall by the oil control ring.

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#32
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Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 11:16 AM

Generally there are 4 types of piston lubricating systems :

A. Premix, as found in two stroke engines where oil and gas is mixed.

B. Splash, where a paddle is attached to the crank shaft and oil is flung towards the cylinder. This is commonly found in a lawnmower engine.

C. Mist, where a lubricating pipe mounted below the cylinder skirt sprays a mist of oil on to the cylinder wall.

D. Piston pressurized, where pressurized oil is expelled from the piston oil control orifices.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 11:35 AM

scrapped ≠ scraped

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#34
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Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 11:39 AM

Depending on the amount of friction, one can lead to another.

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#36
In reply to #33

Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 1:25 PM

Thank you Mr tornado, my spell check must be just scrapping by.

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#5

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 5:22 AM

Not all engine friction happens at the ring/cylinder wall interface.

One-third of car fuel consumption is due to friction loss -- ScienceDaily

Another site says, " Parasitic friction losses in engines and transmissions consume up to 10-15% of fuel used in transportation."

Engine Friction and Lubrication Engine friction

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 10:30 AM

Well a lot of efficiency is lost through the power transmission, the flywheel, clutch mechanism, gears, drive shaft, differential drive assembly...

\

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#11
In reply to #7

Re: The World runs with friction

09/10/2017 11:21 PM

What about the Turbo Encabulator?

It is explained eloquently here: Turbo Encabulator - YouTube

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#38
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Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 3:54 PM

How much of that 1/3rd is tire rolling resistance? That is a definite two way street - we need the friction to move/corner, but it definitely hinders forward motion. Something we seldom think of when looking at motorized vehicles, unless we are trying to set mpg records. Most tires are concerned with safety, which requires a high rolling resistance.

It is a very real friction to overcome. I ride bike a lot, and my little 1/4HP engine (my legs) can sure notice rolling resistance difference between tire sets. I've thrown several sets of tires out after one ride because they were way too hard to keep rolling. Of course, they were advertised as safer tires, not surprisingly.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 4:29 PM

Zero tire friction makes it difficult to move in any direction.

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#40
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Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 4:34 PM

That's what the sand dome is for - hit the sand please.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: The World runs with friction

09/11/2017 4:51 PM

In a frictionless world, even the sand is frictionless, and no one can hear you scream, I scream, we all scream for ice cream.

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#54
In reply to #39

Re: The World runs with friction

09/13/2017 4:58 PM

Ummm... Using magnetic levitation was the first attempt to reduce friction for rail and if things move forward as they look in the world of railways... trains could run with no friction... Hyperloop...

https://hyperloop-one.com/

https://youtu.be/LAWEOwDDt_Y

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Hyperloop_in_Dubai

BRgs.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: The World runs with friction

09/13/2017 10:29 PM

Ummm....frictional forces remain, even on trains using maglev, and even on trains running in a partial vacuum.

Yes, Virginia Elizabeth, there really is friction.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: The World runs with friction

09/14/2017 12:11 AM

Sure.. a level of friction will always be in any of the systems but proportions are highly different.

I do not see any of the new technologies as full replacement of traditional ones but definitely they are here and moving faster than expected.

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#63
In reply to #56

Re: The World runs with friction

09/14/2017 7:11 PM

"...but proportions are highly different..."

'Proportions' to what?

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#60
In reply to #54

Re: The World runs with friction

09/14/2017 1:44 PM

...well, er, uh...at least that portion of friction related to wheels and bearings.

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#9

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/10/2017 11:54 AM

JDominic, after looking back on your prior posts, I have begun to think that you are just a dreamer. And I don't mean the kind in the spotlight here in the USA.

You say, "I am really struggling with fabrication of my projects. Even though I feel that my ideas are good, i fail to bring that into a usable product.Can anyone suggest any sort of basic tool usage or any random advice "?

Maybe your projects just defy realization.

A frictionless piston ring seems, to me, to be one of those unfulfillable dreams.

As pointed out by many, piston ring friction is minuscule compared to all the friction in a typical automotive engine/drive train.

Is your question rhetorical or do you have a specific goal in mind?

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#10

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/10/2017 10:48 PM

Whilst friction is a reality and attempts are made in all of the drive train including the tyres to minimise it, a large amount of energy is lost through inertia as the piston stops at the ends of it's stroke and reverses direction, hence the appeal of rotary engines.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 12:36 AM

Whilst the discussion is friction, ignoring the Elephant in the room, rather restricts the discussion and gems like Lyns won't get an airing. The subject is fantasy after all.

So Mr or Ms "Off Topic" inertia contributes to friction.

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#13
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 12:49 AM

Inertia in a reciprocating engine certainly reduces efficiency and does induce forces that increase friction in wrist pins and crank and main bearings and camshaft bearings. Your response cannot be considered OT, in my opinion.

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#14
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 1:35 AM

It isn't primarily inertia that does that; however, the off-axis (sideways) force of piston rods does increase (relatively slightly) the force of piston rings against cylinder walls. Rotary motion per se does not introduce inefficiency, as witness the revolution of planets.

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#15
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 2:08 AM

Not entirely correct, Tony.

The energy absorbed in accelerating the piston/conrod at the top and the bottom of the stroke is recovered as it decelerates in the last half of the stroke.

There will be increased friction at the crank / conrod bearing and the conrod / piston pin due to the forces necessary to accelerate and decelerate the conrod and piston, however most of the energy used overcoming the inertia is recovered.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 2:13 AM

P.S. Planning to announce the lightest, cheapest, lowest friction auto driveline - as soon as we have a 'patent system' that does not DESTROY intellectual property.

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#17
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 3:01 AM

Whilst the energy may be stored/recovered by the rotating parts such as the crankshaft and flywheel, the same can't be said for the pistons and conrods. You can't decelerate/accelerate a mass without using energy.

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#20
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 4:20 AM

'Energy can neither be created nor destroyed'

Accelerating a mass requires energy.

Decelerating a mass absorbs energy.

This could be illustrated by 'driving' a single cylinder engine loosely, e.g. via a torque converter, & with no compression - plug out or head off - and reading the crank angular velocity. Crank will be seen to increase velocity in the last half of piston travel, slow down on first half.

Hence, multi cylinder engines.

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#21
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 5:00 AM

All of the observations you make are correct, but don't contradict what I've said. I agree the forces on the crankshaft are almost balanced by the firing order, but the fact remains energy is required to accelerate or decelerate a mass. This is why pistons are made as light as possible.

A piston and conrod if not connected to the crankshaft would keep going. They are decelerated due to the connection with the crankshaft and the energy is converted to heat.

Tony

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#22
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 5:09 AM

Centripetal acceleration requires no energy, or else the universe would long since have stopped running.

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#23
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 5:15 AM

We are running our engines on earth and pistons generally move in a straight line.

If you can accelerate or decelerate (on earth) with using energy, you could be very rich.

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#43
In reply to #22

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 10:49 PM

Centripetal acceleration is the rate of change of tangential velocity to achieve this change you need energy which translates to a force...

=.......(looses a bit inthe copy paste bit)

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#44
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 11:09 PM

So?

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 3:10 AM

Centripetal acceleration requires no energy, or else the universe would long since have stopped running.
Um...yes it does

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#49
In reply to #46

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 9:57 AM

You'll have to explain it a lot better than that.

No distance traveled in the direction of the force = no work = no energy.

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#58
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/14/2017 5:08 AM

Ok simple terms..

something going in a straight-line...aka velocity will continue to do so unless acted on by another force... (apologies to Mr.N)
A circle is a constantly changing vector therefore there must be a force. In the case for example of satellites/planets/stars gravitational attraction (bad choice of words but hey..)
Plus to get sommething moving in the first place required a force....

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#59
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/14/2017 12:29 PM

So? Force by itself does not equal energy.

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#61
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/14/2017 2:15 PM

Of course not, they have completely different units for a reason. Kinetic energy is KE=1/2*m*v2

The net force on an object results in a change in kinetic energy F=m*dv/dt

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#62
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/14/2017 2:19 PM

At least you mentioned net force being the effective accelerator.

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#24
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 5:47 AM

"A piston and conrod if not connected to the crankshaft would keep going"

Yes.

"They are decelerated due to the connection with the crankshaft and the energy is converted to heat"

No. The kinetic energy of the piston and conrod (velocity zero at TDC and BDC, tho the conrod has some lateral velocity) is transferred to the crank.

The experiment I described would show that, using a high res angle encoder.

Apart from the (hopefully) minimal bearing friction, there is no means for the K.E. to be converted to heat.

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#25
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 6:58 AM

Sorry it's not all converted to heat, I agree, only if the crankshaft is locked.

Please answer this question:

Do you agree that accelerating or decelerating a mass whether it is in motion or at rest requires energy?

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#27
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 7:10 AM

Accelerating a mass requires energy.

Decelerating a mass produces energy.

In the case of a car braking, the KE is converted to heat. In the case of an electric car regen braking, the KE is converted to electricity, then stored as chemical energy in the battery.

In the case of the piston / conrod / crank; lets assume frictionless bearings. The deceleration of the piston / conrod in last part of stroke will accelerate the crank - such that the total K.E. is constant. Where is the energy going to get converted to heat?

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 7:45 AM

Only sort of. Acceleration and deceleration of a mass are achieved by applying a force. Energy is transferred to the mass during acceleration, and from the mass during deceleration. The energy may be transformed, as in kinetic energy to heat, but is not "produced" in either process.

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#35
In reply to #27

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 12:00 PM

Yes, you may have a point, I will discuss it with my engineering friends.

I need convincing that bringing a moving mass to a halt and changing direction doesn't waste energy, it's counter-initiative.

Tony

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#50
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 9:59 AM

Now we have drifted to discussing the conversion of one motion (linear) to a second motion (rotary). The energy is not lost, or we would not only have nowhere to go, we would have no means of getting there.

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#29
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 9:30 AM

Energy transfer is required for acceleration in any direction. Energy is not lost.

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#57
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Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/14/2017 3:38 AM

whomsoever; explain 2 'off topics'

or P.O.

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#18

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 3:27 AM

A frictionless universe is impossible to contemplate.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 3:34 AM

Maybe with strong enough drugs....

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#30
In reply to #19

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 10:01 AM

Each to his/her own...

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#26

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 7:08 AM

Some years ago there were various OEM's running IC engines with Ceramic bores and Carbon pistons which lowered friction considerably but the Lean Burn effect which increased cylinder temperatures also increases NoX.

Over the years, alternative materials, better machining tolerances and thinner oils have reduced friction between parts considerably. Some companies are even trying plastic based bearings on the crankshaft.

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#42

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/11/2017 5:37 PM

... without friction dispersing work energy, the cylinder will just seize-up when the rocker arm finally fails, due to shaft metal fatigue, or the cylinder wall explosively fails, due to ever-increasing internal pressure... ...poof!!!, one way, or the other, ultimately due to some form of cyclic loading eventually exceeding fatigue life...

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#47
In reply to #42

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 9:53 AM

I think there are problems on several levels with the answer you just gave:

friction disperses work? You mean the entire thermodynamics theory is wrong?

seize up with no friction? If there is no friction, there is no means (apparently) of machining any machine parts, or of having a machine to make a machine.

Anyone living on a friction-less plane would slide off the edge of the world, and be consumed by the sea monsters.

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#53
In reply to #47

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 4:13 PM

Friction disperses Work energy...

Bend anything metal back a forth enough, and it will eventually strain-harden, succumb to reversing shear stresses, and ultimately, then fail, even if operating at a gravity-neutral point in space, without sliding anywhere, first...

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#45

The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 12:53 AM

You can not grip anything, which means you can not eat or drink. You also can not walk or stop your sliding motion without hitting on something.

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 9:56 AM

Were are back to a plane of zero friction, and in such a world, how does one have an inelastic collision (i.e. run into) with an object? I think we all slide off the plane into the sea at the edge of the world, and be devoured by the sea-monsters.

There be beasties out there I tell ye.

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#51
In reply to #48

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 10:40 AM

Just for you James :

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/12/2017 11:59 AM

Right when you blew across me bow, we were careenin' her for barnacles and weeds, shiver me timbers, Jack Sparrow, but we did take the broadside and showed a leg for more. Now we'll be full sail, and abeam of your Jackskipper in two shakes. Your keel be hoggin' the breakers, sippin' the sides.

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#64

Re: The World Runs with Friction

09/16/2017 1:44 PM

I would place "zero friction" in the same category as perpetual motion.

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