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Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 12:15 AM

I have 3 to 5 HP Laser machines for diamond cutting at my work place which needs a start up time of 1 hour to start work on it after turning it ON. Due to small power cut offs of about 15 sec, the machines gets off and it requires 1 hour to resume. Hence can anyone suggest any intermediate device so that power towards machine continues in case power cuts off some short time. Battery is not preferred as it is not economical to place a battery bank.

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#1

Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 12:21 AM

What is the total watts draw when operating? A small UPS system might be the best way to go .....Does this machine require pure sine wave or will it operate on modified sine wave?

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#2
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Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 12:30 AM

Dear SolarEagle,

We have machines with different operating ratings. Maximum watts is 3700Watts. Pure Sine Wave is desirable.

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#3
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Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 1:54 AM

Well you have to do a cost comparison analysis, what does your average downtime cost per year? This will be how much you have to spend times payback period plus maintenance costs...In other words if your downtime is costing $5k per year, and you assume a 3 year payback as part of a 10 year lifecycle, plus maintenance costs of $200 per year, then you have an idea how much you can spend, $15,600 would be your breakeven over 3 years, and your savings would lie in the remaining 7 years of life cycle minus maintenance costs...There are also production goals to consider, if your downtime is interfering with on time delivery of products, this is another factor to consider....Putting a price on reliable delivery times can be either crippling or not an issue...

https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_enDocType=White+Paper&p_File_Id=1165516095&p_File_Name=APC_DBOY-78KRZE_EN.pdf&p_Reference=APC_DBOY-78KRZE_EN

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#5
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Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 6:06 AM

It is the best solution this problem.

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#15
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Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/05/2017 12:33 AM

Dear Mr. BT,

Pl. inform the following.

  1. Does all unit has to simultaneously start with in few milli seconds or partly some equipments can start a few seconds later. This will decide the capacity of the UPS/DG. Capacity.
  2. You have indicated the max. load as 3700 watts. Is it for the total requirement or is it for one equipment. This will be the basis to work out stand by power.
  3. Alternatively we can think of Solar Power with battery back-up. Now a days high efficiency solar power panels are available.
  4. Ultimately cost effectivenes is the deciding criterion as Mr. solar Eagle has pointed out. Dhayanandhan.S
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#4

Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 4:47 AM

As Solar Eagle has suggested, a suitable UPS would seem to be the solution. Contact the equipment (laser and controller) supplier for their recommendations, as the controller electronics would almost certainly be DC operation. They might surprise you at the level of "sine wave" that can be tolerated.

The 1 hour cycle is common for many machine types where they perform complete diagnostics on each start-up cycle, not only for the processor but also for the other electromechanical components.

Please do not be tempted to just support the controller.

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#6

Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 6:46 AM

I know of a manufacturer in the area, to get a consistent power supplies put in a diesel generator.

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#8
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Re: Device to continue power to critical equipment under short power loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 9:07 AM

diesel gen with less 1 second start up? Still too slow.... use UPS, with diesel generator to extend the length of time covered, I still give you GA.

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#7

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 9:05 AM

I think they call them UPS - uninterruptible power supply.

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#9

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 9:35 AM

If it really is 15 seconds, then a UPS is the only viable choice. But understand that it relies on batteries, which must be maintained, monitored and periodically replaced. If someone forgets about it, then the batteries fail and the UPS is useless when needed.

A low/no maintenance option is something called a Dynamic System Compensator (DySC) that is more for sags rather than outages, but in a lot of cases, you are more likely experiencing sags that dip low enough to trigger the power supply in your laser to turn off. That's what the DySC is for. It can hold up for about 5 seconds, no batteries involved. If you truly have full outages, these allow you to buy and use a less expensive "stand-by" UPS rather than a full on-line double conversion UPS. Stand-by versions take about 1 second to turn on, the DySC allows it to take that long.

DySC

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#10

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 1:36 PM

You may talk to OEM. This may work-

Separate power module of machine from controller unit. keep controller unit on UPS, And leave power module on normal supply.

Goodluck

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#11
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 1:42 PM

That idea has it merits.

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#17
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/05/2017 6:54 AM

Not knowing the machine, this can possibly lead to very expensive failures.

The 1 hour start diagnostics on many machines is exactly to enable a safe start regardless of machine shutdown situation. It allows the controller and hardware to re-calibrate/synchronise before resuming production. These delays are typical for injection moulding machines, CMM's, SMT lines and so on. If you maintain the controller and not the drives in the mechanical side, then the controller could lose sync with the actual drives leading to hardware crashes in the machine heads when power is restored.

That is the reason for my caution in earlier post.

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#20
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/05/2017 1:08 PM

Thats why suggested talk to OEM.

This is not unusual practice by the way.Certainly may not work for everything.

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#12

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 2:39 PM

I have got to ask the obvious (since no one else has), have you contacted your local power authority regarding these power cuts? Perhaps under local regulations they are required to ensure power continuity and hence they should be fixing the problem?

Or perhaps you have a problem with your site power supply connection, have you checked this also, perhaps a simple loose connection is what is giving you intermittent power?

Where are you exactly?

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#13

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 4:00 PM

You need to tell us more.

Do the outages happen during any particular time of day?

Do the outages have a distinct signature voltage profile before, during, and after the event.

You could help yourself out a lot with a laptop, a connector (USB), a $29 data-logger (4 channels), and some test wires and resistors (to divide the voltage into the range of +10 to -10 V.) The data logger can be set up to log quite frequently, and can accurately reproduce 60 Hz line transients that have frequency components was up in the kHz range.

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#14
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/04/2017 11:26 PM

Please tell me more about that $29 USB data logger! ...especially if it has software to run on a Mac.

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#18
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/05/2017 11:25 AM

Dratted inflation: It is $59 now

di-110 kit

There are links on the web site that may (or not) reveal compatibility with Mac.

Mine uses Windaq on Windows.

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#19
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/05/2017 12:44 PM

Thanks. The only reference I found to Mac was a fellow offering to write his own Mac driver back in 2006, with no reply that I saw.

I have in the past acquired data directly from a Mitutoyo caliper via USB into Excel on the Mac, but as I recall, I had to manually press a button on the caliper to tell it when to send a value. That was several years ago. I'll have to go review that.

Even farther back, I wrote my own BASIC Mac driver to acquire data from a USB Multiple-choice test scanner...

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#27
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/09/2017 8:24 AM

"Thanks. The only reference I found to Mac was a fellow offering to write his own Mac driver back in 2006, with no reply that I saw."

I hate to break it to you, but if you're working around industrial equipment, you should have at least one computer in the plant that runs Windows.

It just makes the software side of things easier, since that's the O/S 99% of the industrial drivers, compilers, PLC programmers, etc. are written for.

It doesn't have to be your primary computer, but it's a good thing to have around, like having both metric and imperial Allen wrench sets in a toolbox. You may use one set predominately, but you know you'll run into situations where the other set is the better fit.

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#29
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/09/2017 10:36 AM

Most of the computers at our plant, as at most plants, are PCs, so you are not "breaking" any news to me. In fact I do personally have one that was given to me, but although it has a Vista sticker and ID number, it is currently running XP, and I don't know how to upgrade it, if Vista (or other newer OS) is worth upgrading to...

But I've been a Mac user since year 1 (1984), and have been doing my CAD on the Mac since around '86. I know Mac hardware and software, and have a strong preference for it. I'm in my 4th quarter century, and not anxious to learn the details of PCs or a whole new set of software.

Since USB has made many devices interchangeable, I'm always on the lookout for new ones, especially sensors. In fact, I did once modify a USB driver to use the data from a USB card scanner on the Mac, but that was like a decade ago...

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#32
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/10/2017 11:57 AM

Any XP machine that is still alive and functioning, please keep it warm and happy. I left mine out in my cold shop, and she died.

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#16

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/05/2017 6:31 AM

<...Battery is not preferred as it is not economical to place a battery bank....>

Please list the options that are <...preferred...>, then?

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#21
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/05/2017 1:27 PM

Alternator mounted on bicycle is OK.

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#23
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/06/2017 12:32 PM

For supporting a 2-5 horsepower machine? No way!

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#24
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/06/2017 12:50 PM

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#25
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/06/2017 1:26 PM

From Wikipedia:

Normal human metabolism produces heat at a basal metabolic rate of around 80 watts.[1]

During a bicycle race, a well trained cyclist can produce / sustain close to 400 watts of mechanical power over an hour and in very short bursts over double that: 1000 to 1100 watts (modern racing cycles have greater than 95% mechanical efficiency). An adult of good fitness is more likely to average between 50 and 150 watts for an hour of vigorous exercise. Over an 8-hour work shift, an average, healthy, well-fed and motivated manual laborer may sustain an output of around 75 watts[2] of work. However potential yield of human electric power is decreased by the inefficiency of any generator device, since all real generators incur considerable losses during the energy conversion process.

While attempts have been made to fit electric generators to exercise equipment, the energy collected is of low value compared to the cost of the conversion equipment.[3]

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#26
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/09/2017 5:46 AM

GA

Just add for those like me that had to look it up that

1 horsepower = ~746 Watts

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#31
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/10/2017 11:54 AM

That must be why my wife hates, and refuses to use the "exercise bike with alternator and battery" I made for her from her old English racer, a stand, alternator and car battery. It even has a switch to the battery, light, and volt meter.

She "that thing is ugly and worthless, and takes up our patio".

Me "it is at least a conversation piece if we ever had a block party (which we won't)."

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#22

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/06/2017 10:05 AM

For that short a time, you might find that an oversized rotary/flywheel UPS might be a suitable solution. PSC Power systems has hybrid and pure rotary units that should be able to work for short interruptions without batteries. It may not be economical to size one for the full 15 seconds, but between load shedding and selective restarting, a large unit for the whole plant could be economical. It is normally sized to bridge the gap between power loss and generator engine start time.

See this:http://www.pscpower.com/what-we-do/products/uninterruptible-power-supply/batteryless-ups/ or search on flywheel UPS.

Make sure you get the best option for voltage control with the unit, that is the component you need to work at highest performance to keep your machines running.

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#28

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/09/2017 9:20 AM

Get the proper size of UPS, then just add sets of batteries in parallel connection to the existing if the UPS does not last 15 minutes. Simple computation of A-hr rating is there and how much current is needed by your laser. You can compute that simply.

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#30
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Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/10/2017 11:44 AM

"Get the proper size of UPS, then just add sets of batteries in parallel connection to the existing if the UPS does not last 15 minutes."

A UPS is rated in Amp-Hours (or milliamp-hours, for smaller units), so your statement confuses me, as "Get the proper size of UPS" means "get one that will provide enough amps for the required time." Also, depending on the type of batteries used, you cannot "just add sets of batteries in parallel connection," you typically need to add circuitry to handle "load balancing" between the batteries, as they may not all charge/discharge equally, and a "weaker" cell in parallel with a "stronger" cell will end up draining power from the stronger cell and potentially damage one or both batteries.

Backup power is seldom as simple as it first seems, mainly because the UPS systems are designed to handle the battery configuration they ship with, and they do most of the 'heavy lifting' in a way that hides the work from the end user.

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#33
In reply to #30

Re: Device to Continue Power to Critical Equipment Under Short Power Loss <=15 sec

10/10/2017 12:19 PM

I can easily tweak that with confidence if that's my personal project, you know. Just need to put up additional A-hr to sustain a 15 min operation. But, what can I say? I bet the guy must have had his butt kicked if something goes wrong with the tweak and its not ISO or UL or some RoHS approved thus no certainty and safety in the other side of it. To be safe, well, just follow local regulations.

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