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Cars with Automatic Braking

10/06/2017 6:00 PM

The new cars that have the automatic braking feature will cause a car to brake if another car or a person crosses in front of the car. What happens if someone driving with this braking feature "tailgates"? Does the car brake?

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#1

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/06/2017 6:08 PM
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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/06/2017 6:30 PM

I'm with you. Warnings are fine, especially when there are blind spots around the car. But if I'm responsible as the driver, I intend to be in full control. I don't need the car to brake itself or steer where it "thinks" the lane is.

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#18
In reply to #4

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 12:37 PM

I'm in complete agreement with you. I want complete control. Sensors can fail or malfunction. The best and only way to reduce accidents is driver education. An annual or bi-annual driving test might be a good solution. I would definitely support one even if most would object.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 1:39 PM

"Sensors can fail or malfunction." Yes, and that includes the ones in your body. It is absolutely impossible to keep your full attention on the road ahead all of the time. Since the sensors for braking (and other) systems have no distractions, they can Pay attention 100% of the time.

"The best and only way to reduce accidents is driver education." I fully support driver education, and believe it should be required of all drivers (including those coming from other countries), but it is quite clear that it is NOT the ONLY way to reduce accidents, and I don't think it is the best way, either.

Autonomous vehicles are coming, whether you like it or not, and the best way to reduce the number and damage of accidents is to get all vehicles 'autonomized' as quickly as possible, and thereby eliminate driver error/misjudgement/inattention/distraction, which by far constitute the most prevalent cause of accidents. Once this happens, there won't be any drivers, so driver education will no longer be needed, except for off-road vehicles.

I, for one, am hoping they arrive before I get too old to drive safely.

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 2:30 PM

Jpool, Ronseto, Sister, how do you guys feel about HAS? Do you currently turn off antilock brake system and opt to manually pump your own brakes to be in full control?

What about other stability system, that briefly modulate brakes when wheel slippage is sensed? Are these switched off in your vehicles?

...and airbags? Are these switched off so that ultimately how you move is affected actively only by your conscious decisions/implementations?

.

Automatic braking should provide advantages when additional braking would help by reaction times for your foot take to0 long.

The control and responsibility are still yours if for no other reason than not driving is an option.

This is simply another tech advance providing an additional tool that you can utilize to enhance your safety. A responsible driver will become sufficiently familiar with the conditions that trigger.such a system as well as the behavior after triggering.

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#26
In reply to #20

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:25 PM

Very good point! GA to you!

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#33
In reply to #20

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 6:16 PM

I have been in situations where, had I made an emergency braking, a vehicle behind me would have rear ended me. In such a situation, a steering manoeuver allowed me to avoid hitting the vehicle in front of me and not getting hit in the rear. If I had automatic braking, I would relinquish control of my vehicle and there would be an accident. I guess what I did would be considered a racing manoeuver. One must not forget, the condition of the vehicles tires enter into the equation. I am a very defensive driver and I want the full control of my vehicle at all times. I don't trust technology or other drivers. When I drive, I'm always on the lookout for "escape" routes in case of an emergency. I have been driving for 65 years and still feel confident of my driving skills. I have had accidents during my early years of driving due to youthful folly, but all that changed with maturity. I actually think my driving skills get better with age. As long as I'm not "dribbling" or half blind, I will remain a safe driver. I speak only for myself and no one else. How they drive is their problem.

These days, I recognize the possibility of danger as I drive and take precautions, which means driving slower and keeping a safe distance between me and the vehicle ahead of me.

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#39
In reply to #33

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/09/2017 12:09 PM

The same as you, I've headed for the shoulder more than once to avoid an accident due to some fool coming the other way in my lane, a problem which seems to be more common since the advent of cell phones.

I'm not sure how well that would have worked had the car put on the brakes at the same time. It's easy to lose control if braking at the same time as a steering maneuver.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/09/2017 12:27 PM

If your car doesn't have collision avoidance now, it soon will have....this system not only brakes in an emergency, it also can steer the car to avoid an obstacle...or both at once, and do it faster than you can....

..."Once the detection is done, these systems either provide a warning to the driver when there is an imminent collision or take action autonomously without any driver input (by braking or steering or both). Collision avoidance by braking is appropriate at low vehicle speeds (e.g. below 50 km/h), while collision avoidance by steering is appropriate at higher vehicle speeds.[4] Cars with collision avoidance may also be equipped with adaptive cruise control, and use the same forward-looking sensors.

In March 2016, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety announced the manufacturers of 99% of U.S. automobiles had agreed to include automatic emergency braking systems as a standard feature on virtually all new cars sold in the U.S. by 2022.[5] In Europe there was a related agreement about advanced emergency braking system(AEBS) or autonomous emergency braking (AEB) in 2012.[6] United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) has announced that this kind of system will become mandatory for new heavy vehicles starting in 2015.[7] NHTSA projected that the ensuing acceleration of the rollout of automatic emergency braking would prevent an estimated 28,000 collisions and 12,000 injuries.[5]"...

..."In the 2016 Berlin terror attack a truck was driven into the Berlin Christmas market and was brought to a stop by its automatic braking system.[15] Collision avoidance features are rapidly making their way into the new vehicle fleet. In a study of police-reported crashes, automatic emergency braking was found to reduce the incidence of rear-end crashes by 39 percent.[16] A 2012 study suggests that if all cars feature the system, it will reduce accidents by up to 27 percent and save up to 8,000 lives per year on European roads.[17][18]"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_avoidance_system

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#52
In reply to #40

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/11/2017 2:46 AM

Good information!

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#48
In reply to #39

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/11/2017 2:35 AM

The current systems will not intervene until the last fraction of a second. If you're going to pull to the shoulder to escape and accident, you'll have enough time to do so.

In regard to lane keep assist, your example is a perfect reason for having it. Imagine all the times someone has accidentally drifted into your lane. If they had lane keep assist, the system would've moved them back into their own lane.

For good drivers, these systems will keep the road safer, by keeping the other cars in their own lane or braking at the last second to avoid an accident.

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#35
In reply to #18

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/09/2017 3:41 AM

D'uh... that's what they said about seat belts...
If people want to kill themselves that's fine by me... but I don't want them killing me by driving up my arse!
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#38
In reply to #35

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/09/2017 11:17 AM

I was talking to a highway patrol officer one day and he told me that he'd never had to unbuckle a corpse from a car wreck.

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#49
In reply to #38

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/11/2017 2:43 AM

Being a new driver in the early 80's, my friends and I didn't use seat belts. In fact, our parents, teachers, etc didn't use them either. All through college, I didn't use seatbelts. When I moved to CA, I started to use seat belts. Mostly, because it's the law and they enforce it here - and I worked for the gov't and it would look bad if I got a ticket for no seat belt.

After a few close calls, I felt the difference. The seat belt keeps you in a better driving position when doing a defensive maneuver. Or if you're going fast and you hit a small hill too fast. Going around corners fast - a seat belt holds you in place. And in the event of an accident - the seat belt keeps you from flying into the windshield or out the side window.

I'm sold on wearing a seat belt and I'm glad that they enforce it.

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#22
In reply to #4

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:17 PM

The first one of these cars I drove was a few years ago. It was a Subaru Outback with Eyesight. I was initially against it and when my clients ordered the car with the Eyesight, I thought it was a waste of money. I drove the car for a little over an hour and I was impressed. Here's why.

1. The radar cruise control is a very nice feature. When in cruise mode and the gap between you and the car shrinks to an uncomfortable level, in a regular car, you hit the brakes, then when the gap is okay and traffic is moving fast enough, you hit "resume" on the cruise. The radar system does it for you, all the way to 0 mph if need be. It's actually a nice feature.

2. Lane change assist and lane departure alert. This system does work and it's amazing how often we drift out of our lane. The system works at speed > 32mph. I think I'm a pretty good driver, but when I turned the system on, I couldn't believe how often I would drift out of my lane. Also, it brings me back into my own lane. It could help avoid an accident, so it's a valuable system.

3. The lane departure system has a sensor which helps detect if you're falling asleep behind the wheel. If you start drifting off, the system senses it and a warning comes on with a picture of a cup of coffee, telling you to pull over and take a break. I've done a lot of driving in my life and there have been times when I've nodded off for a second or so. It's a scary thing, so if I have a car that can tell me I'm falling asleep, that's a good thing.

4. There will be a time when you look away from traffic. I try not to, but it'll happen. I like having a system that will keep me from getting in an accident.

Here's one bid downfall with these systems. The average driver doesn't pay attention now. If they know there are systems to prevent accidents, they will become even more careless with their driving.

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:22 PM

I think that they are a great driver ASSIST.

@#23 Yes, it may have indicated that, I don't remember. I do remember that it aggravated me until I figured out what it was and then I loved the help.

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#2

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/06/2017 6:15 PM

If it's engaged it will....probably a visual warning first...

https://demanddetroit.com/our-company/community/blog/tailgate-warning-on-detroit-assurance-40

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#3

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/06/2017 6:19 PM

It depends on the vehicle.

The last car I rented had it. I think it only worked when in cruise control. After I figured out what it was, I really liked it.

I do know that different car's systems work differently.

It can be overridden.

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#23
In reply to #3

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:21 PM

You had a car with radar cruise control. Definitely a nice feature. There are also systems that work all the time. Both systems can be turned off or the sensitivity reduced (or increased) as deemed necessary by the driver.

I bet most people who own a car with the system don't know that they can turn it off or adjust sensitivity. For these people, it's probably better to leave the system in the factory setting mode.

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#31
In reply to #3

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:50 PM

All 2017 Toyota Corolla's come with the TSS-P system. This system includes accident avoidance, pedestrian detection, lane keep assist, lane departure warning, radar cruise control and automatic high beams.

Even the lowest model, the Corolla L has these features. With a set of floor mats, at full sticker price, you're looking at $19,695 and there's a $2,500 rebate, so a net price of $17,195 + tax and license. That's a lot of technology for a low price.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:59 PM

Yes, that's it. It was a pleasure to drive and had enough room for the two boys and me.

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#47
In reply to #32

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/11/2017 2:29 AM

An excellent car and nothing like the older, smaller Corolla cars. I deliver more Corolla's, than any other model of car, including Camry's - America's number one selling car for the past umpteen years!

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#58
In reply to #47

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/11/2017 11:44 AM

We leased one of the old model Corolla's for my mother-in-law and I ended up driving it for two years. You're right, the new ones are a different world all together.

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#5

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/06/2017 6:56 PM

Opinions may vary depending on who has ever accidentally rear-ended someone else.

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#6

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/06/2017 8:23 PM

I'm more concerned about the guy behind me having this, frankly I'd rest a little easier knowing that the guy behind me had auto brake assist....and if it takes me having it too, then so be it....How many people get bumped from behind at traffic lights and in traffic jams....how many pedestrians are hit, how many bikes, how many kids, how many dogs.....I think anything that can help reduce these numbers is a good thing, especially if doesn't infringe on anybody's rights...

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#7
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Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/06/2017 9:00 PM

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/07/2017 4:22 PM

You might have a point there. I got rear-ended once when I stopped at a red light before checking my mirror. Maybe I need for the car to disable the brakes and hit some gas when it detects a red-light-runner approaching from behind.

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 11:41 AM

Both my wife and I have had that experience too, on separate occasions. I remember watching in my rear-view mirror as the guy approached, and lifting my foot off the brake to lessen the impact on my car. Of course that made him push me into the car in front of me, but the energy of his car's motion was distributed so there were only tiny bumps in the bumpers. This was back when cars actually had metal bumpers. My wife's much more recent accident required replacement of the entire rear plastic and several lights, etc., costing thousands of dollars.

Both of these incidents would have been avoided by automatic braking systems.

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#27
In reply to #12

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:29 PM

This is why the autonomous cars may not work. When do you run a red light and when do you hold the brake and hope that the guy behind you will stop at the last second?

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#25
In reply to #6

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 5:24 PM

Excellent point. My better half tells me that she's not worried about my driving, but she worries about the other guy who isn't paying attention.

The pedestrian systems also work at night. I think about the number of times I see someone walking down the street wearing dark clothes at night. I live back in the canyon and there are lots of places where the street lights don't shine. I'd hate to not see a person and hit him.

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#8

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/07/2017 1:17 AM

What kind of "controlled (?) accident" do we see when a motorcycle idjiot zips across lanes as they're want to do?

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/07/2017 1:20 AM

wont, not want.

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#34
In reply to #8

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 7:16 PM

What kind of "controlled (?) accident" do we see when a motorcycle idjiot zips across lanes as they're want to do?

Well, if the automatic braking reflex is faster than human reflex, I can envision a chain reaction that could get interesting.

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#10

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/07/2017 3:26 AM

Sensor and programming defects or malfunction is the most troublesome thing to worry about.

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#11

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/07/2017 8:47 AM

Let's hope so....
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#16
In reply to #11

Re: Cars with automatic braking

10/08/2017 11:56 AM

If the system functions, it MUST limit tailgating to some degree. Clearly, the timing and intensity of braking must take many factors into account, so it will require appropriate sensors, computers, and controllers, with redundancy everywhere to account for component/connection failure.

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#13

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/07/2017 11:32 PM

Rear end collisions are about 30% of all accidents. This one feature will save many $ and injuries. But it will take a decade before most cars on the road will have it.

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#14

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/08/2017 12:03 AM

About 30 years ago I was driving my pick up truck and a lady was tail gating me, she wasn't looking and hit the rear of my truck. I had a heavy duty bumper that tore up the front of her Honda civic, but it barely put a scratch on mine. She actually tried to sue me based on her opinion that my bumper was too strong. Doh !

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#28
In reply to #14

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/08/2017 5:36 PM

See, I told you to order the truck with the bumper made of paper mache!

There's one other thing to consider. I don't know if your truck has a tow hitch, but if it does, the hitch makes a nice solid rear end protector. Your back bumper is also higher than her front bumper, so contact will be on your bumper and her hood. The hood has crumple points, so the front end of her car probably looked like an accordian. That's what's suppose to happen.

A few years ago, we were sitting in a dirt parking lot eating some tacos, when someone backed into our car. He had an F150 and his bumper went over the top of our and hit the tail light and deck lid. Over $7K in damage, so the insurance company totalled our car. All of this over a 5-10 mph accident!

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#17

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/08/2017 12:10 PM

AAA Study Findings

AAA has studied and tested the automatic braking systems, and they came to the following conclusions:

  • The systems designed to completely stop the vehicle reduced speeds by twice that of the systems that are intended to slow the vehicle before impact.

  • The systems designed to just slow down the impact were able to avoid crashes completely in about one-third of the vehicles tested.

  • In testing of vehicles traveling at 45 miles per hour going toward a parked vehicle, the systems designed to stop completely reduced speeds by 74 percent, and successfully stopped 40 percent of the time. The systems designed to lessen crash damage were only able to reduce speed by 9 percent.
  • How Well Do Automatic Braking Systems Work? - Car Pro
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#29
In reply to #17

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/08/2017 5:44 PM

Good information. My take is that the systems will not work 100% of the time, however they do work some of the time and they reduce the chance of an accident or reduce the damage if an accident occurs.

Overall this is a good thing.

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#21

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/08/2017 5:06 PM

Good question. Here's some real life data from my clients.

1. The automatic braking system works well and will stop the car to avoid an accident. It does not light you tailgating the car in front and will automatically apply the brakes to keep a safe distance. You receive a warning that the car is braking and you have no time to do anything other than apply the brakes yourself.

2. There is also a "less invasive" system that's set up to reduce the impact of an accident. It is not designed to avoid an accident, just reduce the effects of one, if it happens.

3. There is also a radar cruise control system. This works in conjunction with the regular cruise control. You first set the speed of the cruise control system. Then you set the distance you would like between your car and the car in front (typically one to three bars). If the gap closes to the point where the distance isn't enough, your car will slow down or even stop if necessary. Once the gap opens, your speed increases to the set speed.

4. Pedestrian systems. These systems are camera based and look for pedestrians. If the system thinks you're going to hit a pedestrian, it will engage the brake to avoid the accident. Again, a warning light pops up on the dash or HUD.

5. Cross traffic systems. These systems work when your car is in reverse. The system checks up and down the street for cars and pedestrians. If it senses one, you'll receive a warning and the car will automatically brake.

I know we don't like these systems "controlling" our cars, but they do a good job and help us avoid accidents. As much as I don't like letting something control my car, I am in favor of these systems.

I am not in favor for the so called "autopilot" systems, for one reason. We will rely on it too much. No problem in most cases, but there are conditions where the system will not know what to do. That's a problem for me, when I've given full control of the car to the system.

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#30

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/08/2017 5:47 PM

I remember years ago, Volvo had an automatic braking system on their XC60. I did a test, which consisted of driving an XC 60 into an inflatable barrier. They said that I should keep my foot on the gas and don't touch the brake pedal. That's what I did and I'll tell you, it was hard not to hit the brakes when I knew I would hit the barrier. Then out of nowhere, the system slammed on the brakes and I stopped short of the barrier. I was impressed!

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#36

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/09/2017 8:10 AM

what about if someone deliberately steps in front of your car the car stops and they carjack you?

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/09/2017 9:48 AM

As soon as they come round the side you drive off, or you have your doors lock, or you put down the window and say "Not today thank you" or you do a reverse 180 or you squirt the with the windsceen wipers on the "acid" setting.
Or you do exactly what you would have done had they stepped out and you car didn't have automatic braking, as I'm sure you wouldn't run 'em over....
Yeah but, yeah but,... what if a flying sauce lands in font of you and...
Get a grip man!
Del

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#46
In reply to #37

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/10/2017 4:23 PM

yeah but, yeah but, what if the chicken crosses the road? Does she still lay an egg in the middle?

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#50
In reply to #37

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/11/2017 2:44 AM

Couldn't have said it better!

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#43
In reply to #36

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/09/2017 5:26 PM

Do what I usually do when that happens; pull out my 9mm, aim at the perps head and say "No thank you!"

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#54
In reply to #43

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/11/2017 3:08 AM

No, no, no! You pull out your Smith and Wesson 500 and ...

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#45
In reply to #36

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/10/2017 2:57 PM

I was thinking the same thing as well. Then it got me to thinking that we have beggars/panhandlers that stand on the islands (maybe one foot strip of raised concrete) at intersections. Them just being there could cause a car to slam to a halt causing all kinds of pile ups.

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#51
In reply to #45

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/11/2017 2:45 AM

They have to step in front of the car, for the auto braking system to work. At least that's what I read.

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#55
In reply to #51

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/11/2017 9:16 AM

What if I don't want to step in front of the car, in fact, I refuse to do so!

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/11/2017 9:18 AM

Then automatic steering takes over and steers the car right into you.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/11/2017 9:52 AM

RODFLMAO! Regarding my toil, labor, and life, that has to be a standard.

By the way, I am not carrying slops today, but pure patriotism.

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#59
In reply to #55

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/13/2017 12:59 AM

Then you can't test the pedestrian detection system. So, like Nike says; Just do it!

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#41

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/09/2017 4:07 PM

I object to the possibility that big government will mandate rules and regulations for all of us, like it or not. Big government always thinks that they know better than the general public and try to put everyone in a box and we all know that there are different rules for government officials and the public. One may remember a case where a guy named Steve Gass introduced his "Sawstop", a saw that would shut down if a finger or hand touched the whirling blade. It works well and although Gass tried to make it a mandatory feature for all table saws, through government regulation, he failed to do so.

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/09/2017 5:21 PM

You're taking both sides of the argument.

Lawyers representing big saw guys killed Gass' idea of selling it to them and he then went ahead and marketed it himself. He won an infringement suit against Ryobi a few years ago.

In this case the government dismissed a good idea because lobbyists for the saw guys were cheaper than buying Gass' technology and so were the numerous suits brought later that made the scummy lawyers even richer.

Without government research into medicine, drugs, workplace safety and other killer industries we'd still be breathing that black air and drinking lead contaminated water.

We're headed back 50 years to the times we all know are a danger to our children and grandchildren? Why? Lawyers, lobbyists and big business write the laws, not voters or our supposed representatives.

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#53
In reply to #42

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/11/2017 2:51 AM

You are correct. Many of our laws are enacted due to lobbyist efforts. That's not why laws should be written, but it's how our government operates.

If lobbyists weren't allowed to give gifts or favors to congressmen, then we'd stand a better chance of being represented by our elected officials. Until then, big business rules the land.

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#44

Re: Cars with Automatic Braking

10/10/2017 2:01 PM

No. In that case, it gets fooled into thinking the car in front is not an object, and then plows right into it, but it is OK, because this is a car with "autonomous" braking.

I am just glad my old Chevy still has brakes that are functional.

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