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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 2:12 AM

We have an ABB dc drive dcs800-A02-1200-05-D in which is enclosed fuses type 170M6162. The problem is that 4 times since February to September the fuses 3or 5 have been destroyed. According to ABB who have monitor the fact, the problem is of the failure in voltage. But, this dc drive is installed in a crane. If this fact was because of the voltage, the problem would happen to the other cranes too. But nothing had happened to the other cranes. Could you help me?

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Guru
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#1

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 10:39 AM

Not from here. No-one here can either see or measure the installation. So it needs someone locally who can go through the installation with the proverbial "fine toothcomb", carrying out detailed measurements until the fault can be flushed out. If no-one is available immediately to do that, then hire someone.

OK, so the fuses blew. But the motor overload protection device didn't operate (rhetorical question - NNTR)? This would be the place to start digging.

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#11
In reply to #1

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 3:05 AM

It's actually a proverbial "fine-tooth comb".

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#2

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 11:04 AM

You need to perform some troubleshooting on this machine....I would take an infrared temperature gun and check for hot spots, it could just be a loose or corroded electrical connection or component failure is imminent, or intermittent short, operator using out of spec, maintenance lacking, poor connections in fuse block...just to name a few....

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Guru

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#3

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 11:18 AM

Are you sure all the IGBT's of the drive are working? Please consider all possibilities they have stated above and double check you can do it with a checklist.

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#4

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 1:05 PM

On that drive there are fuses for the armature and fuses for the field, as well as, assuming this is a regenerative drive because it is on a crane, there will be more fuses on the output to the armature. Your description of "3 and 5" does not match to anything in the manual. You need to start by properly identifying WHICH of the8 main power fuses in that drive have been clearing.

Fuses blow from excess CURRENT, not "a voltage problem" (unless there is a severe voltage drop that makes the current increase to the point of clearing fuses). So I think you got hold of some sort of know-nothing idiot at ABB or maybe you just called an ABB supplier, not the factory representative.

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#5

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 1:38 PM

poking our noses blindly into your electrical enclosure from a far might result in a far.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 5:41 PM

LOL.

But that joke only makes sense to Texans, and those who know Texans...

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 7:46 PM

Plus it only works if the first "a far" is spelled correctly without the space.

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#15
In reply to #7

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 9:00 AM

my bad, sorry for the lousy spelling.

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#14
In reply to #6

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 8:59 AM

I hope you all are safe and "far" removed from the Napa Valley "far".

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 11:07 AM

Thanks for the sentiment. We have the Bay and the Sacramento River between us and the fahrs, but I hope that's enough. Embers have been carrying on the wind for a mile or so, the river is not that wide in some areas and the winds are expected to pick up again tonight. Then between us and the river are three refineries so if those go up, the fire will spread to who knows where.

We have been breathing the thick smoke for almost a week now, it's getting old, but my suffering is nothing compared to all the people losing their homes, lives, and livelihoods. I had a lot of business customers up there, many of their businesses no longer exist. So even if people survive with their houses intact, the economic crisis will continue. Tens of thousands of jobs have been lost already, not just the wineries, but all the associated support businesses, restaurants, hotels, etc. all gone or damaged, and those that survived will have no customers with no wine industry.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 1:49 PM

Somehow, I don't know, I envision it all coming back in a few years. Vineyards take years to get back into production. Opportunity will herself for the rugged ones that survive this.

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#21
In reply to #14

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 10:37 PM

I thought Texans said, " a far piece " .

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/16/2017 8:56 AM

No, that's a "fur piece"! Not to be confused with a toupee!

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#8

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 10:39 PM

I have the same experience dealing with a drive of a hydraulic elevator. Fuses blow and we replace another set, and it just blow again. I came up with a solution of replacing all IGBT's in the drive and it worked just fine.

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#16
In reply to #8

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 9:01 AM

Or you could just use pennies.

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#9

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/12/2017 11:20 PM

"I came up with a solution of replacing all IGBT's in the drive and it worked just fine."

That may be the answer. It is an expensive solution.
If the fuses blow, you have to look at them and see if they just burn out due to sagging or it the wire disappears due to a slight overload or if the wire completely covers everything with vapour.
You also have to know WHEN the fuses blow and how many blow.
You need a whole list of answers so you can "home in" on the fault.
You can try changing the controller with another crane if it is easy to replace. This will tell you a lot.
We really need to know the current and the type of fuse and how often this has happened.
Then we need to know if you can get a change-over controller and hold it as a spare, if you have a number of the same pieces of equipment.
This whole thing is very complex and you need to do your preliminary work before calling a person.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 6:33 AM
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Guru

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#19
In reply to #13

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 6:37 PM

The drive uses SCR or thyristor devices - Not IGBT.

Good paper otherwise.

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#10

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 12:52 AM

That is a regen drive 4 quadrant 1200 amp 500 volt Drive in a D5 frame. The D5 frame has 6 "leg" fuses internal to the bridge for SCR protection. The circuit diagram lists them as F11 through F16. In this frame a high speed DC breaker is recommended on the output. The 170M6162 is a Bussmann high speed fuse 800A 690V.

Are you trying to say you blow 3 to 5 of the 6 fuses?

In a 4 quadrant bridge you can cross fire SCR's and that will take out fuses.

You can also have an inverting fault - and that occurs when the DC motor voltage is too high with respect to the AC line voltage and you try to regen stop. This often occurs on a crane when you are quickly lowering a load and you try and stop it. If the line voltage dips or is interrupted you will again lose fuses.

You do not state if the crane is using the field range of the motor --- if you are and did not setup the field regulator circuit correctly then it may be unstable and overshoot the voltage - leading to an inverting fault.

With the drive you can adjust the field weakening point to provide more head room while regening--- what maximum armature voltage do you run, and what is the minimum AC line voltage you see?

You may also be having motor commutation problems - do you have lots of sparking? Does the motor flash over? - that also blows fuses.

Is there a series field in the motor? Have you verified it is connected correctly? In 4 Quadrant operation the series field is purposely left disconnected - otherwise it is good for motoring but no good in the regenerative quadrant.

In my experience the DCS800 drive has been one of the more forgiving drives on the market for avoiding inverting faults.

You may want to compare the actual line and dc voltages with a meter against the displayed voltage on the drive.

I did have one drive in which the AD converter for the DC voltage feedback failed - because the hoist was voltage controlled and not tachometer controlled - it dropped the load - luckily it was in a restricted warehouse and no damage or injury occurred.

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Guru

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#20
In reply to #10

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 9:41 PM

Look up ABB document 3ADW000163R0201

Technical guide, starting at section 3.1

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Participant

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#12

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/13/2017 6:29 AM

Change the six semiconductor protection fuses.Not only 3 or 5 fuses.Current limiting fuses such as 170M6162 "remember" the overcurrent they suffered in the past.If you do not change all fuses, some fuses will blow in the next overcurrent taking out new ones.

Any fuse manufacturer will recommend to change all fuses.

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#22

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/15/2017 5:52 PM

Check your rail collector circuits, the wearing parts that move with the crane.

See if the failure occurs in one location in the plant, or anywhere the crane happens to be.

A failure in the motor or armature conductors could cause a flashover on the commutator, which usually blows fuses easily, especially if on the dc side. Poor timing of the SCR gate pulses due to poor voltage signals is what ABB is referring to. An ac line reactor can help clean up those signals to reduce notching, which is a root cause of firing your SCRs into each other, phase to phase short circuit.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Circuit of Fuses

10/15/2017 6:51 PM

You are correct about the possibility of the collectors --

The OP did not state if the power was on collectors or a traveling cable. --- Once again - too little information provided.

If it uses collectors and he has bad contacts - can be game over.

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