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How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/26/2017 8:23 PM

How do you find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers in the suspension on all 4 wheels?

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#1

Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/26/2017 9:48 PM

First, get an infinite number of vehicles and a crash helmet.

If that's not possible, when don't you give the forum some useful information about:

1. Who you are.

2. The purpose of your question. and why you would ask such a question, at all.

3. What you hope to learn from this exercise.

4. What help you have received from your instructor, so far. This IS homework, right?

Where is the roll center for a vehicle with infinite instant centers and a ...

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#22
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Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/29/2017 2:33 PM

Sounds like a VISA requirements..... ENTRY DENIED!!! Just kidding you

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#2

Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/26/2017 9:55 PM

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#3
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Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/26/2017 10:13 PM
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#4
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Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/26/2017 10:48 PM

..."In the limit, pure translation becomes planar movement with point velocity vectors that are parallel. In this case, the instant centre is said to lie at infinity in the direction perpendicular to the velocity vectors."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_centre_of_rotation

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#5
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Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/27/2017 12:36 AM

Exactly. Good videos by the way. So since the roll center usually comes from the instant centers, how do you find it when the instant center is at infinity?

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#6
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Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/27/2017 1:07 AM

Well I believe that's an algebraic statement not a real number...

..."If the displacement between two positions is a pure translation, then the perpendicular bisectors of the segments A1B1 and A2B2 form parallel lines. These lines are considered to intersect at a point on the line at infinity, thus the pole of this planar displacement is said to "lie at infinity" in the direction of the perpendicular bisectors."...

..."In geometry and topology, the line at infinity is a projective line that is added to the real (affine) plane in order to give closure to, and remove the exceptional cases from, the incidence properties of the resulting projective plane. The line at infinity is also called the ideal line.[1]"...

..."In projective geometry, any pair of lines always intersects at some point, but parallel lines do not intersect in the real plane. The line at infinity is added to the real plane. This completes the plane, because now parallel lines intersect at a point which lies on the line at infinity. Also, if any pair of lines intersect at a point on the line at infinity, then the pair of lines are parallel.

Every line intersects the line at infinity at some point. The point at which the parallel lines intersect depends only on the slope of the lines, not at all on their y-intercept.

In the affine plane, a line extends in two opposite directions. In the projective plane, the two opposite directions of a line meet each other at a point on the line at infinity. Therefore, lines in the projective plane are closed curves, i.e., they are cyclical rather than linear. This is true of the line at infinity itself; it meets itself at its two endpoints (which are therefore not actually endpoints at all) and so it is actually cyclical."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_at_infinity

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#8
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Re: How to find the roll center of a vehicle with infinite instant centers

10/27/2017 2:09 PM

Roll center is where the rubber meets the road....at the vehicle center line...

https://www.rqriley.com/suspensn.htm

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#7

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/27/2017 1:11 PM

"infinite instant centers" means that the suspension only moves in translation (presumably up and down), and not in rotation. So there is no way for the car body to rotate, so it's roll center is also at infinity, at least until there is enough side force that it rolls over about one of its tires.

At least, that's the way I see it...

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#9

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/27/2017 2:47 PM

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#10

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 3:39 AM

There it is. Awesome. How do you find the front to back roll center?

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#12
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 10:53 AM

..." the distance between the roll center and CG acts as a moment arm (CG is usually above the roll center). The longer the distance between roll center and CG, the greater the tendency to roll (due to increased leverage):"...

http://dreamingin302ci.blogspot.com/2013/06/flckle-roll-center.html

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#11

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 10:25 AM

This is a perfect example to showcase the beauty of calculus. Not all infinities are the same. Some infinities are larger/smaller than others. Calculus enables one to calculate the range of different infinities within specified limits. So, instead of trying to answer your specific question, I'd like to hype the beauty of calculus, so that you might be able to answer more hypothetical questions than this one. Who knows? You might even be able to figure out how to make Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle less uncertain, or come up with a better understanding of singularities. Calculus rocks!

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#13

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 12:37 PM

I meant how do you find it when the front to back also has infinite roll centers? Is it also on the ground somewhere?

Also, calculus is quite useful

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#14
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 1:20 PM

Yes I imagine it is directly beneath the CoG of the vehicle at ground level...

http://www.team.net/TR8/tr8cca/wedgemath/02_CG_def/CG_def.html

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 9:13 PM

All good and instructive diagrams and videos. Thanks.

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 2:37 AM

agreed

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#15

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 8:08 PM

Thats what I was thinking I was just hoping I could find somewhere to confirm that

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#16
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/28/2017 9:07 PM

Well you're probably asking the wrong question as I don't think the term "roll center" applies to front to back movement....more like nose dive and ???.... acceleration squat?...

Roll center defined as:

...""The point in the transverse vertical plane through any pair of wheel centers at which lateral forces may be applied to the sprung mass without producing suspension roll"."...

Triage calculator

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#18
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 12:47 AM

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#19

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 2:26 AM

Youre right I went back and looked at it again and they only used instant centers for the antis. Looks like the right question is where is the pitch center

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#21
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 4:39 AM
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#23
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 2:48 PM

edit of the one above: they only used instant centers in the front to back pictures ive seen, usually to make it do less nose dive and acceleration squat

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#24

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 3:20 PM

Where is the pitch center when it has infinite instant centers? Its probably on the ground under the center of gravity when its level but Im not sure

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#25
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 4:09 PM

Well if you assume that the infinite instant centers come together at some point and the corresponding alignment of the bottom of the tire you will see that it just drops down some from the above example...then slightly above the ground....

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#26

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 7:49 PM

When I couldnt find anything I was just looking at those lines from the instant centers and how they do it when its infinite. Would it be halfway between the wheels or under the center of gravity? Also would it be an infinitely small distance above the ground since the instant centers are an infinite distance away and their angle is an infinitely small number above 0?

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#27
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/29/2017 11:20 PM

Here's a discussion I found about pitch axis...

..."THE CAR-BODY DOES NOT ROTATE ABOUT THE "PITCH AXIS"!!!"...

..."Considering the pitch axis (geometrically defined from the control arm angles in side view) as a pin joint of the chassis is even more incorrect than considering the roll axis as a pin joint. In the case of the roll axis, it is not a bad approximation at very low acceleration because the suspension response on the left and right of the car are somewhat symmetrical.

In the longitudinal case this is not the case. A RWD car under acceleration is an extremely asymmetric (front to rear) problem so the pitch axis location is absolutely meaningless.
Its more meaningful to consider the suspension loads and movements at each axle separately. The resulting body motion at each axle is the superposition of 2 main effects:
1. Load transfer - under acceleration it loads the rear axle in bump and the front in rebound
2. Jacking - can load the suspension in any direction you want but is proportional to the traction/braking force. It is typically used to load it in the direction OPPOSING that of the longitudinal load transfer and this is what cancels out the body pitch and gives the "anti" effect."...

http://www.fsae.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11985.html?s=85b56df699ae3b271c88375703c4f5db

So it seems this is inconsequential...

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#30
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 11:18 AM

Just thought of something... ..."THE CAR-BODY DOES NOT ROTATE ABOUT THE "PITCH AXIS"!!!"... Doesn't the car body rotate around the tires at the point of ground-contact during acceleration/braking? Even if that point might not be the "pitch-axis", it is still the point-of-support of the car's weight. During load-transfer, the C-of-G produces an inertial force towards a point in relation to the source thrust of the acceleration/deceleration (which are usually not intersecting). Therefore, the thrust of acceleration/deceleration and the inertial force/thrust of the C-of-G produces a torque around the point-of-support of the car's weight (the tires at the point of ground-contact), which uses that as a fulcrum. If that torque exceeds the vector-value of the C-of-G's inertial force, then the car will do a wheelie or a "hand-stand", because there is no more load transfer capacity for the tires at the point of ground-contact to accept. So, the car body rotates around the tires at the point of ground-contact during acceleration/braking. How does the pitch-axis get defined?

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#40
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 11:03 PM

I think its the connection between the contact patch on the tire an the instant center and where those lines cross. Im thinking the wheels are like the fulcrims and the roll center and pitch centers are like the combination of them

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#42
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/31/2017 2:22 AM

Thats what Im thinking, Im not sure though

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#43
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/31/2017 2:40 AM

I saw this too. I dont know though because they say it doesnt but every college powerpoint Ive seen says it does, so I dont know. I think fsae is racing

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#28

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 5:59 AM

SolarEagle... Thanks for your efforts and overall good imput to this, as well as many other forum topics. You certainly help make this web-site the fine place it is.

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#31
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 11:55 AM

Yes we have many fine contributors....thank you

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#29

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 7:32 AM

With problems like this I tend to imagine what happens as in this case the instantaneous centres approach infinity ( or zero ), some things are undefined at the limits.

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#33
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 12:13 PM

if the instant centers of roll meet at infinity, it means the object is stable on its pins (tires) as it translates at this point in time.

The next thing in the chain of events is an input that begins a rolling moment of the tires (not tires spinning so much as the rotation of the axles about the center of mass).

If the centers of roll meet at a focused point inside the frame of the vehicle, what happens next? Does that mean the vehicle will spontaneously roll over?

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#34
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 12:45 PM

Not all infinities are the same. In this case, I think infinity means an infinite number of values within a finite range.

As far as roll-centers go, that depends on the applied force. If you gun the engine to produce a large torque, that roll-center is at the crankshaft of the engine that's producing the torque. If you have a parts engine in the back of of a pick-up truck, all it does is change the C-of-G of the lateral forces produced by a sharp turn of the truck (Which has a different roll-center). The sharp turning of the truck produces centrifugal/centripetal forces that are determined by the relation between the inertia of the C-of-G and the traction at the point-of-contact of the tires (not the suspension). The suspension only determines how those forces affect the load transfer of the suspended weight (to which tires/wheels). The better the transfer, the less likely it will roll over. But the force producing the that load transfer, has its own "roll-center", which is the point-of-contact of the tires to the road (the fulcrum of all the supported weight, sprung and unsprung). Right?

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#35
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 1:52 PM

Roll center shift when cornering...

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#36
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 1:53 PM

some of it is right, but seems obfuscated by the "clutter" in your example.

If every item added to a pickup bed raises the center of mass slightly, there comes a point where the vector projections during a turn will place the roll torque in excess of the righting torque. This is when the roll center moves outside the outside wheel, and it really, really hurts for this maneuver to happen.

With respect to your versions of infinity: there is only infinity or not infinity.

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#38
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 2:22 PM

"With respect to your versions of infinity: there is only infinity or not infinity."

This is why Relativistic/Classic physics and Quantum physics don't get along.

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#32

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 12:06 PM

"roll center" = donut shop?

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#37
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 1:53 PM

Donut roll....

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#39

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 10:26 PM

I was going to ask how the roll center and pitch centers move when you turn, brake, or accelerate

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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/30/2017 11:29 PM
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#44

Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/31/2017 6:21 PM

How does it move for pitch center and roll center with infinite instant centers?

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#45
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

10/31/2017 7:52 PM

I may be interpreting all of the information presented thus far incorrectly, but it would seem that both roll and pitch centers are continuously varying with changing conditions.

This would indicate that instantaneous conditions would necessarily be required for each determination.

If memory serves me correctly, the determination of infinite instant centers would be defined by a differential equation whose limits would be those that determine the acceptable stability of the vehicle in terms of safety, handling and comfort.

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#46
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

11/02/2017 9:08 AM

Probably only infinite at rest with no inputs on the suspension other than gravity.

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#47
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

11/02/2017 1:06 PM

Well I think what changes under forces is the center of gravity, this then changes the moment arm, which then alters the reaction of the suspension geometry which then determines the car behavior....

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#48
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Re: How to Find the Roll Center of a Vehicle with Infinite Instant Centers

11/02/2017 1:19 PM

Sure, if the car is in a banked turn for example, the CoG moves. It only happens when things be tilting.

Haul her over, and give her a good scraping. She is too slow in the water.

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