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Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 6:36 PM

I went to the 38th IHACI trade show and picked up a single page " flyer " from a company. The company name is purportedly, " Hybrid Energy Solutions ", ( I went to Google and entered name, result = Hybrid Energy Solutions is a company based out of Ireland that is engaged in power grid operations. I went to Google and entered name, Top Eco, results = Topeco is a European men's clothing operation.

I could not find a Top Eco, or a Hybrid Energy Solutions to describe this product. I was told by a representative that the device causes the coolant or refrigerant to " swirl " and this in turn allows the expansion valve to better atomize the refrigerant.

The flyer reads this way :

Top Eco is a fluid agitation device for refrigerant based HVAC and Refrigeration systems.

Top Eco is installed on the liquid side of the system in between the condenser coil and the metering device.

The refrigerant is composed of fluorine, hydrogen, bonded with carbon as the nucleus, circulating in the air conditioning system sealed at a speed of 3 m to 6 m per second.

When compressing,condensing,expanding and cooling are repeated, fluorine and hydrogen may be separated from carbon, which degrades ( degrades ) the capability originally possessed by the refrigerant.

Top - Eco is a device that uses the circulation speed of it's refrigerant to normalize the disturbed refrigerant molecules by further rotating at high speed in it's internal structure.

Here are images from the flyer : ok, is this legit, or another scam ?

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#1

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 6:55 PM

Not much out there.

" Hybrid Energy Solutions is yourTOP-ECO Licensed Distributor."

Top-Eco Agitation

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#2

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 7:15 PM

I can't tell if the grammatical errors are yours or theirs, but the bullshit is mostly theirs, and your detector seems to be broken.

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#15
In reply to #2

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/08/2017 12:22 PM

Over 40,000 of these have been installed in Japan. If they were BS, you'd think that in such a small company, their reputation would have caught up to them. Additionally, the company offers a guarantee. If you don't realize a 15% savings, they will take the unit back.

We'd be open to discussing this with you should you be interested.

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#3

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 8:02 PM

"Once Installed And The Refrigerant Is Fully Agitated (5 To 10 Days)"

I doubt that the Japanese were impressed with this contraction.

I see it more as a separator than a mixer.

I will separate the purchaser from their money with no benefit.

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#11
In reply to #3

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/06/2017 1:15 PM

Here's another one I came across when looking for a replacement pressure reducer (regulator) for my city water connection.

Eddy Current De-Scaling of Water Pipes. LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJafYMB0vow

It's amazing how many people can be duped out of their money and they LOVE it.

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#16
In reply to #3

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/08/2017 12:23 PM

This is a patented item that has over 40,000 installations in Japan. I believe they are quite impressed!

We'd be welcome to have a discussion about it should you be interested.

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#19
In reply to #16

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/08/2017 1:46 PM

Sure.

Any peer reviewed papers on this concept actually published?

Please tell us what patent numbers cover this product. I'd love to look at those.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/08/2017 5:30 PM

Thanks for your interest. In the spirit of transparency, let me introduce myself. I am Director of Operations for Negawatt USA. We are the North American distributors for the Refrigeration Agitation Device. We did exhaustive vetting of the product prior to taking this on. We researched the product, talked with AC and cooling professionals, various university directors of Maintenance and they all have agreed this will work. As a result of this, we are totally comfortable representing the RAD.

The patent was registered in Japan. The title of this patent is Refrigerant processing device and refrigeration air conditioning system. And they also have the same invention applied as a PCT application. For now, the designated states included the U.S.. If you send me an email jerry@NegawattUSA.com, I'll be glad to send you the patent document.

Any other questions, feel free to reach out to me at 609-238-4449

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#21
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Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/08/2017 6:21 PM

Are you saying it is registered with the U.S. Patent Office? It's not clear to me.

So, there are no peer-reviewed papers then? Independent lab reports? Surely we could take identical cooling systems, apply the same heat load to them and measure the difference in efficiency between the standard unit and the one with the Eco Fluid Activation Device. And then swap the device between the test unit and the control unit and the improved efficiency should follow the device, right?

One test is worth a thousand expert opinions. Actually a lot more . . .

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/09/2017 10:29 AM

Absolutely. We currently finishing a test. The results will be completed the week after next. The methodoly is to put a submeter on a unit and measure the usage for a week. We then install the RAD and measure for another 2-3 weeks. Interestingly enough, the tests from Japan show significant saving if the measurements were for 2 weeks after installation and even greater if the measuring period was 4 weeks after installation. Once they are available, we will post them on our site, www.NegawattUSA.com. They'll be in the News section.

Thank your for your interest.

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#28
In reply to #23

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/09/2017 6:58 PM

How can you be sure the conditions from one week to the next will be the same? Where's your control in this test? This approach doesn't even begin to satisfy the most basic of scientific methods. In other words, the tests you describe will lack any validity.

It's fine to let the test run as long as necessary, but if you do not have a control running in parallel with your test, how can you compare the data? Will you have logged data on the heat load? the delta T across the evaporator? the airflow? humidity levels? input energy logging? room/building temperature logging?

"Savings" are meaningless unless you have the data to prove the increase in efficiency, otherwise an unscrupulous tester could simply raise the thermostat when the RAD is installed and of course there will be "savings".

What metrics are you going to use to measure efficiency?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_control

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#33
In reply to #28

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/13/2017 10:32 AM

I am willing to open this to anyone on this site - new ideas have been scorned since the beginning of time. I am 100% open to discussing you testing the RAD following some agreed upon methods in order to ensure accurate results. Let me know if you're interested. If not.......

Just sayin'

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/13/2017 12:46 PM

Do your work for you? How much do you pay?

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/13/2017 3:50 PM

Call me at 609-238-4449

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#32
In reply to #20

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/10/2017 8:08 PM

Go away, you disgusting fraud.

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#4

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 8:18 PM
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#29
In reply to #4

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/10/2017 12:15 PM

Like this one:

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#5

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 8:26 PM
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#31
In reply to #5

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/10/2017 1:07 PM

How now brown cow! What emotions are felt by the race of giants? Fie! Fei! Foe! Fum! indeed.

Why could not the giant be named Jack, whilst the clever, bean-stalk climbing child be called Gogmagog, or Blunderbone?

Giants all over the world could be insulted by such a tale.

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#6

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 8:48 PM

Looks like they are a scam to me.

Ignoring the dodgy looking "working" principles, lets look at it from another angle shall we. From the IHACI website they were not even a registered exhibiter at the show so appear to be trying to promote the product by doing so at a legitimate trade show either to appear more legit, save money by promoting at best dishonestly(at worst illegally) or all of the above.

Either way, ignore.

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#13
In reply to #6

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/06/2017 1:57 PM

Irish travelers, most likely.

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#7

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/05/2017 9:57 PM

Despite claims of many installations, they have no endorsements, outrageous dubious claims, no proof of concept study, distributor is a few different emails with no physical address....scam scam scam

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#17
In reply to #7

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/08/2017 12:28 PM

Check out http://www.negawattusa.com/news/

Delve deeper into the site and you'll find the physical address and additional information. We'd welcome having a discussion with you to answer any questions you might have regarding the RAD.

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#8

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/06/2017 3:55 AM

Sounds Irish to me!

Pseudoscientific crap. What do they think traditional refrigerants (Freons) consist of other than fluorine, hydrogen and carbon?

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#9

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/06/2017 8:26 AM

If fluorine and hydrogen were separated from the carbon, then it is also possible for the hydrogen and fluorine to reappear as hydrofluoric acid and the contents of the equipment to leak out as a highly corrosive material carrying soot, basically. I do love the idea of reinstalling the bullshine detector. Now, that would be a good investment.

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#10

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/06/2017 10:03 AM

This is a very capable method of funds transfer from you to the people who made it.

It has no other function...

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#12

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/06/2017 1:55 PM

Snake Oil - Humbug - black box stuff, IMHO. Refrigerant molecules are very stable indeed, and do not fly apart during mechanical process of compression, expansion.

This is pure bunkum.

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#18
In reply to #12

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/08/2017 12:30 PM

In that it's a patented item, apparently the patent office bought it. We'd welcome the opportunity to have a discussion with you on this product assuming, that if, after that, you'd be willing to post your thoughts.

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#22
In reply to #18

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/09/2017 10:17 AM

Patented snake oil, is still snake oil. Thanks we have enough charlatans already.

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/09/2017 1:57 PM

The other thing I would say is this. Before we picked up the product, we had serious concerns about the validity of the RAD, similar to where you are. We spoke to so many different AC professionals, Head of Maintenance at some major universities, etc. and they all said it a) was based on a simple concept and b) would work. We've got plenty of case studies, albeit from Japan, and will have a case study concluded the week after next. Without knowing how it will turn our, I will post the results. Keep in mind, people used to think the earth was flat and we'd never send a man to the moon.

Feel free to email me at jerry@NegawattUSA.com.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/09/2017 2:42 PM

It isn't? We did? Just kidding.

I have had numerous friends in the chilling business, home, and otherwise. Nothing of the sort ever turned up in discussions, certainly not chemical decomposition of the refrigerants.

I hate to say it, but this is touted by people with little or no knowledge base in chemistry.

Note that this is not saying that if cavitations existed in the liquid refrigerant (at the expansion nozzle or anywhere else), that strange things might not happen, as sometimes cavitations can actually produce plasma state, with very rapid heating of some molecules, then decomposition is guaranteed. How your mixer prevents such a thing is beyond a mystery.

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#26
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Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/09/2017 3:10 PM

Of course not - the device didn't come out until 2013 and is just being launched in the US now.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/09/2017 4:36 PM

Well, I would cast a jaundiced eye toward any black box items to be retrofitted on large tonnage or small, if was mine to watch.

It is like saying: "add this to your cannon decks on this Man-O'-War, and you will be safe on the rollin' main. Nonsense.

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#30
In reply to #27

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/10/2017 12:18 PM

Better to "Trust in god, my lads, and keep your powder dry" IMO.

This thread reminds me of one I started. http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/107777/Heating-System-Additive

It seems most unlikely it will give any benefit, and the pseudo-scientific jargon doesn't encourage you to take it seriously

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#14

Re: Top Eco Fluid Activation Device

11/07/2017 5:45 PM

In the 50s and 60s they sold them to put on top of or below the carburetor, claimed 15 to 20% improvement in MPG. Then you put a magnet on the fuel line and a spark gap on the coil and soon the gas was running out of the tank! -- JHF

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