Lock bumping solutions

Just a quicky. regards JD.

Hmmmmm I think I will stick to my Chubb locks after watching those videos....

If those 'bump' keys really work as well as they do in the videos, then surely most of the cylinder locks would be susceptable to this method of opening them?

I am sure the manufacturer's must have anticipated this method though?

Hi Electroman,

"I am sure the manufacturer's must have anticipated this method though?"

Apparently not soon enough. Although I was unaware of "bumping" before I saw the video, it, apparently, has been a known tactic for years now.

The general public, obviously, is not aware of it either. I just went to "Home Depot" and looked at the various lock sets and did not see any package mention of anything like "Unbumpable" or "Cannot be bumped", etc.

Until forced to do so, manufacturers will probably want to keep this under the carpet.

-John

Good answer DoorLockExpert.

Thaks for the info.

-John

That's extremely interesting Doorlock...

So from that I gather there are still many locks around that can be 'bumped' using this technique?

Is nothing secret on the internet? I suppose next we will be having videos of how to break into cars and steal the radio etc...

John.

Good post,

Alot of these bumpproof lock comes at a considerable price. I realize the price of safety is valued, but could there be a way to make these "bump proof lock more affordable".

with the original post address that, looking into it myself.

Here is a public service site about lock bumping with a lot of information.

http://www.lockbumping.org

This problem was brought up in the Clearstar Network, a locked locksmithing forum, and our facility devised a retrofit solution that was found to be effective

The lock plug has its pin chambers threaded with a 6-32 tap, and top pins are made from 3mm threaded stock. A pin detent is also added to the plug to give the plug an initial resistance to overcome before rotating.

These two modifications close the time window where the pins would be separated and susceptible to opening to this method.

The only three locks than make claim to being 'bump proof' are Abloy, BiLock and Emhart. I'm not going to pimp any given manufacturer, but from a serviceability viewpoint, I use Emhart on my office

Master Lock has also has a development that thwarts bumping in a very novel manner

Allen D. Murphy

A.D. Murphy & Co

Butler WI 53007

Locksmithing /Manufacturing

Clearstar Member CSM1857

Regular locks, especially the ones typically sold for residential use are absolutely worthless. Even without a bump key, with a little practice it is not difficult to manipulate a lock in less than 15 seconds with common lock picks. There is also a "lock gun" that works the same as a bump key but more conveniently since it uses a pin inserted into the lock to apply the impulse to the pins.

I have used Medeco locks for 25 years with no breach of the lock. I once designed machine controls used in the manufacture of Medeco locks and so I have a very thorough knowledge of their design. I can't see how they could be bumped. Yes you could bump the pins but even if you did induce chaos in the angular mode of operation I can't see that there would be a statistical likelihood of all the slots lining up in order for the side-bar to drop. Maybe if you could catch the pins above the shear line and then manipulate the pin rotation manually but that would be rather difficult.

Of course one must question the logic of the whole notion of a lock when it is often no big deal to kick the door in or do what the fire department does, jack the door frame. Of course those do leave nasty tell tale signs that you've had uninvited company.

Firstly, if you have a reasonable lock, do not panic......not everyone can open such locks using bumping.

Secondly, an alarm is still a good idea. There are special alarms around that will protect your house, in spite of animals and people moving about, but as long as no windows or outer doors are opened, nothing will happen.

They are also excellent for people who worry about their small children (or others) sleepwalking and leaving the house at night, when that person opens the street door, the alarm goes off.

Alarms with sensors using radio contact to the main unit cannot be recommended as the thieves have now got transmitters that "block" all frequencies and so they can break in without the alarm being set off......old fashioned alarms with wiring are very cost intensive at install time, but good in most other respects....

And the reality is that most of the time no one is coming to break in anyway. Even if you left your door unlocked most of the time there aren't a parade of people walking around checking for unlocked doors. On the other hand, if they come to break in they door is not the only nor necessarily the best or easiest means of ingress. Which is why I prefer double cylinder locks so they at least have to go back out the way they came in. These however present a safety hazard so I also have the type that have a special "key" that latches in the lock to provide a thumb turn on the inside when the house is occupied but can be removed (with another key in the outside cylinder).

Can the locksmiths on here tell me if there is a way to 'pick' my Chubb 7 lever security locks?

They are apparently pick resistant, drill resistant, force and hacksaw resistant.

When I had a security survey of my house some 15 years ago the locksmith casually said he could pick a 2 lever in seconds a 3 lever in 30 seconds and a 4 lever in 30 minutes... So I asked him about my locks and he said it would take 24 hours and the cooperation of Chubb to pick them...

Its certainly made me careful about loosing my house keys!!

John.

Interesting question. I, too, would like to hear the locksmith's comments.

"The fault doesn't lie in our stars, but in our locks!"

Almost all locks today are pick-able by simply rubbing something back-and-forth in a lock while putting a very small pressure on the lock in the direction that it turns. That's how a pick gun works! I've also done the same thing using a narrow feeler gauge that "buzzed" the tumblers.

There are products on the market that can be used for opening both complicated padlocks and circular locks. All you have to do is prove you're a lock smith to get them - what's the definition of a lock smith? "Any person that is responsible for being able to open a particular door." If you can meet that, you can buy anything you want!

Another quote, "Locks are to keep honest people out."

Dead right.

You need reasonable locks and a sophisticated electronic alarm to be maybe 60% covered.....and good insurance for the rest!!!!

"Locks are to keep honest people out."

And to keep dishonest people in.

And even then, they find a way of making a shiv out of a plastic coffee top!!!

Over the years I've now and again removed the Chubb locks, which are mortised deadlocks, and taken them apart for cleaning, the insides are a work of art and there is no way I can see that they can be picked, as the key is turned a shutter blocks off the keyhole and the levers have to be at the exact height to allow the lock to turn. So there are no pins or tumblers to jostle with even if you could get your picking device past the shutter that closes.

All this bumping talk is about those cylinder locks such as Yale etc... as far as I'm aware...

As a matter of interest when I had the security check 15 years ago for insurance purposes, the 'expert' told me that the purpose of the deadlocks is not to stop someone getting in, that would be impossible to do - BUT the purpose is to make it impossible for the burglar to get out easily when he is carrying large goods...

So the dead lock was to stop him walking in and out carrying swag after he had broken in!! Through a window or whatever!

John.

I'm not certain what you are referring to by "Chubb locks?" If you mean "dead-bolt" locks, they're as easy to pick as any other lock...

Bumping the tumblers is not to make all the pins fall down, but to make all the pins fall into place as that "small" side pressure is placed on the lock. As a matter of fact, the hardest thing for any would-be lock picker to learn is just how much pressure to place on the lock - the tendency is to put too much pressure on the lock.

Circular locks, at least the ones used for commercial purposes, were considered for a time to be unpick-able, but not any more - you just need a different type of pick.

You have to remember that for a locksmith to do his job, he has to be able to bypass any lock he runs into. Spend a day or two with a locksmith and it will scare the crap out of you!!!

As a side note. I worked for a company whose VP was very proud of the defence work he had done for Westinghouse. He had a device that he displayed proudly on his desk - it was a lock and three keys. The story goes that the DOD wanted Westinghouse to design a lock to keep nuclear missiles from being launched. The DOD's prerequisite for the device was: create a lock that an intelligent psychotic could not defeat within five minutes!!! That shows you how much faith even the military puts into locks!

Chubb is the manufacturer of high security locks in the UK.

The locks exceed the British standards for being able to be forced, vandalised and pickable... They are also extremely expensive.

These 7 lever versions are used on safes as well as high security buildings.

As I said in a previous message I had a lock smith round my place and even he baulked at trying to estimate how long it would take to pick my locks, he said it would need 24 hours and the co-operation of Chubb to pick them, and I believe him!!!

John.

Bumping works by randomly moving the pins up & down until they chance into the unlock position. Kaba make replacement cylinders that use 6 sets of pins at 60° increments around the lock. Bumping these would mean getting all 6 sets of pins into the unlock position at the same time. Another advantage is that you can't get the keys copied at the local hardware shop.

I think you misunderstand bumping. There is nothing random about it. Some other manual techniques work as you describe but bumping does not. It is pretty much a one shot sure thing, on locks that are susceptible. If you review the postings you will find very good descriptions that explain how it works.

RCapper answered correctly, there are videos of kids doing it on the web, should I search out a link for you?

Back again, folks--

Chubb locks ARE pickable, I've seen the picks for them and they are made to bypass the curtain--work quite well, so I've been told by locksmiths in the UK who are VERY skilled at what they do.

There are also decoders for those lever locks that make right short work of them.

As to Medeco, bumping is not a material issue, as they can have a key fit by impressioning--if you worked for Medeco, I'd suspect you'd know Dorothy Friend and Billy B Edwards Jr.

I've been doing work here with Billy at Master Lock. Man has to be one of the sharpest minds in this trade, and well written, too!

I don't dispute that, the locksmith told me he could pick it but it would take a day and some help from Chubb to do it...

Maybe he wasn't the best locksmith around? But as far as I'm concerned if it take longer than 5 minutes to pick a lock in full view of the road, the neighbours would have called the police long before!

John.

I have helped people break into their houses when locked out, we have broken windows and also done other "Loud" things and stood there etc.. i am sure that not everyone recognises a neighbour instantly......

NEVER has a neighbour complained.....or checked up.....

Ah but do you live in a street where the curtains twitch at the slightest sign of someone walking by? Or where there lives opposite me a family of policemen / women? Or where people know me and I only have to step outside to wash the car and people appear by magic for a natter and a gossip about 'you-know-who down the road was seen with a man, not her husband..... etc....'

LOL this street is like Coronation Street.... apologies to peeps who don't get our marvellous TV (?) but it can get a bit like peyton place here sometimes...

An example 12 years ago someone broke into a house in the street and a neighbour called the police told them exactly who had broken in and what they had taken and where they lived!!!!

John... neighbourhood watch has never been so much fun....

Thats good when it happens.....

But I still like my alarm, it might even wake up the neighbours and get them looking out of the window!!!

After reading post #25, I have reinforced my original conclusion that you need a reasonable quality lock and an alarm.....or has someone else got an even better idea?

There was always the danger that instead of a picked lock, you would have a smashed window or similar anyway, even with the best locks.......what do you think?

It's just a matter of what are you willing to pay in terms of cost and convenience for what level of protection. I have lived places where I had bars over the windows but I've had wives who would never have gone for that. Good insurance and a replacement value rider are probably your final safety net but some things can't be adequately insured. You also have to take into consideration the actual risk. Where I live and with dual cylinder Medeco dead bolt locks on the door the would have to come in through a ground level window that faces a busy road or use a ladder in the rear. Chances are if they don't smash the door in they will have to take whatever they get out the way they came in. Up to the point that I last had contact with the Medeco people, and I have eaten dinner with a former owner and president of the company as recently as five years ago, the $10,000 dollar standing prize for manually picking one of their locks had never been claimed. But take a cordless drill and a hole saw and you can saw one out of a door in about five minutes so you don't even need to kick it in if you aren't able to do so. Or my all time favorite the jamb jack. I don't care what you have if you can jack out the frame 2 inches you're in in a minute. So insurance or don't leave home and keep a loaded piece handy.

Excellent points with regard to the various tools, liked it.

I will continue to use my alarm system, it still seems to be the best offence, it allows full movement INSIDE the house when switched on from both Humans and pets (not that we switch it on during the day, but once we are in bed and someone needs to go to the bathroom, that is not a problem.

As it has no movement sensors in any rooms. It only uses radio for switching on and off and for the external siren (a loud 110db Siren is also in the house, wired to the main box!), and sensors for fire and gas that are also coupled by radio, but none of the main burglar alarm functions are over radio as thieves have units that flood the airwaves not allowing such sensors to work....

It is sensitive enough that if a window or door is jemmied open, or even just opened (if we forgot to lock it correctly) the alarm sounds immediately....

We also have a cat flap in the cellar, which is not in a door, but in an otherwise very heavily blocked up (otherwise) tiny window.....too small and too far away to set the alarm off....

I actually am not bothered by a break in when we are NOT at home so much (full insurance) as a break in WHEN we are sleeping!!!!

Hi Andy,

"I actually am not bothered by a break in when we are NOT at home so much (full insurance) as a break in WHEN we are sleeping!!!!"

Several years ago I had a perpetrator break into my truck in the middle of the night. I had motion sensor lights but, of course, many unsavory characters could care less about these things. Besides, a motion sensor light is certainly not going to wake most sleeping residents up.

So I rethought the whole motion sensor thing and came up with a very effective solution. First, I installed motion sensors on all four corners of my house which virtually covered a 360º field of motion. Then I designed an audible alarm system such that when a motion sensor came on it would set off a chime that would awaken me. I placed the control panel close to the master bedroom so that within a couple of steps I could read the display and immediately see which sensor went off, front, back, etc.

All parts were purchased at Radio Shack for basically pennies. Its been very effective and, over the years, I have intercepted four "would be" perpetrators.

Regards,

-John

Now that is not only using your brain properly (most of us don't!), but also "putting your money where your mouth is".

Brilliant!! Many thanks, excellent idea.

I don't think that would work for me, I'd be up half the night as the local badgers & foxes tripped the sensors. Luckily I live in a terraced house with no rear access & open plan fronts so it would be hard for anyone to get at the house unnoticed. I also have a son whose job involves being on call so the hours he spends at home are completely random & his live in girlfriend who may be a lazy b@#%% but at least she's there all day.

To the best of my knowledge no house in my street has been burgled in the 16 years I've lived there.

Every now and then a dog, or cat, will set it off but it's a minor inconvenience compared to the overall effectiveness of the system.

Incidentally, most motion sensor lights (mine included) have a test setting that will work regardless of ambient light level. If you don't use this, the sensor will only trip in low/no light conditions. By keeping them set on test I can take an afternoon nap and still detect intruders.

By adjusting the sensor higher (as opposed to pointing it straight down) the dog/Del problem can be minimzed.

Let me know if any of you guys want to buy a bottle of lock bumping solution.

Do you mean a solution for lock bumping - for stopping it completely?

or a solution for lock bumping that makes it easier to do?

ENGLISH!!!!

or were you funning with us? (Like I am with you?)

I want a aerosol version...psssssst, click.

There is a liquid that prevents lock bumping. It's called super glue. It has some serious drawbacks though. Mostly it's used for vandalism.

YUP!!

Antibump Locks sells bump-resistant locks that guard against lock bumping