Vegetable oil fuel fo rvery smal diesels

not in my view. i have seen off the shelf diesel engines burn cloth filtered pongamia oil; both straight or mixed with diesel Read this story

Thanks for the article!. the information is encouraging in one sense but reminded me of one drawback. Pure vegetable oils are not as suitable for cold climates where you have freezing temperatures for six months of the year.

More research is needed.

yes, elnav, you are right. what is done in those cases and for start-fast & stop-safe scenes like in a van or car, is to fit a two tank system. the smaller tank has diesel that starts and stops the engine and the larger one -maybe hugging the engine's hot parts- has veg oil. a switch cock connects the two- it can be actuated by an electric solenoid

Good answer, I have rated it as such.....

That also crossed my mind. From external appearance these single cylinder injection pumps do not contain much in the way of elastomeric components. As for the external fuel system itself, that would be made from scratch so compatibility with vegetable oil is a matter of specifcation like any other system design. What I lack is knowledge about the innards of the motors. These are made in China and do not come with any sort of service information. I consider them to be throw aways. Any repairs that take more than one or two hour and require more than just gaskets, would exceed the cost of the engine. I'm now using North American repair shop pricing schedules. Obviously this is not true for many other parts of the world.

You would probably want to make sure your filter is different for the veg oil (different viscosity especially at cold temperatures makes you want a little bit mor poreous filter). Make sure you filter veg oil thru at least one filter before puttin in tank if you are getting it from restaurants throw away oil from their deep fryers.

Also many use a fuel tank heater so you turn it on for a few minutes in cold weather to preheat the veg oil so it can start . In this case its wise to have the battery for this heater separate from the starting battery (if vehicle) since it tends to drain the battery. Cold stories from newcastle england. You don't want the wife and kids sitting in the cold in the car when it won't restart.

Also some mix diesal with the veg oil it to make it run easier in cold weather. An extra tank is nice to prevent stalled / stranded condition if you are using it in a vehicle, you'l need fuel tank diverter in that case (just a fuel line y switch (cock) that diverts fuel supply from one tank or the other).

One idea we had for single tank design is that if you have two suctions in veg tank.. one high one low. The idea is to suck off the top first to get the lighter thinner veg oil to start in cold weather (actually anytime you start in any weather is what the reality ends up being), then use the lower suction to get the thicker oil in the cruising mode. You can use manual diverter valve or automate it with a system of sensors and solenoids to activate diverter valves. A stirrer that starts stirring after engine runs for a few minuters first can be added if you like to stir the fuel but in vehicles the motion of the car stopping and starting and turns and vibrations mix it up anyway. For a factory production this could be great but for home hobbyists its probably too much complexity .

The application I am thinking of is for a stationary engine driving a generator. Although vegetable oil from restaurants might fit in some applications, I was contemplating a situation more like that described in the article at the link provided by GNIMAN in reply #2. One drawback of many alternative energy solutions is that they require economies of scale and require considerable infra structure investment to be economic. The Indian example is better since it can be a stand alone small scale operation.

There are still large areas of North America, especially in Canada where the polulation density is so low it is cost prohibitive to build a utility power grid for distribuition. In these areas a small generator for each individual ranch or homestead is the only solution. Until now these isolated places have used diesel generators. My uncle spent over $8000 on fuel for his diesel genset last year. A lower cost fuel source is therefore preferred. Although two families live on the homestead none of them are technically inclined and any system must be pretty well automatic in operation.

You can burn veggie or animal oil in your small Diesel, but you're barkin' at heat for the fuel system and lots of it. even in "warm" climates. About 180 degrees F is ideal. Heating the fuel tank, lines and filters is required. If you have a liquid-cooled engine, this is relatively easy to swing. Tickell, in his "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank" gives an excellent exposition on running vehicular Diesels on vegetable oil. Other information sources can be found on line, as this topic is all over the place. The techniques can be extrapolated from vehicular Diesels to small stationary engines as well. You need two parallel low-pressure fuel systems, upstream of the injection system. One for veggie and one for conventional Petro-Diesel. Start the Diesel on petroleum Diesel oil, run it until it reaches operating temperature and then switch to the veggie oil, then reverse the sequence before shutdown to purge the veggie oil from the injection system. If you don't do this, the entire fuel and injection system will end up full of solidified fuel. As for the single bore injection pump being different from other designs, it just looks different due to the fact that it is built integral into the engine block. This design is endemic to small single or two cylinder engines. It follows the same operating principle as the larger separate-injection-pumped Diesels.

I realize the small engine injection pumps follow the same operating principle as th elarger units but sometimes the details make a crucial diference. Th single bore pump does not have a rotating sleeve or fuel rack. Nor does it appear to have a variable volume injection mechanism like the CAV design does. Evidently oil viscosity differs depending what the source plant is. Low sulphur fuels is deadly on the older design diesel engines pumps. I have already lost one pump on my truck and a friend lost the injection pump on his car due to this. I was told some pump designs are more suceptible than others.

I saw no mention of requiring external fuel warming in the article from India where they use nut oil. Nor was there any mention of needing preheat when using Jatropha oil.

I'm not looking for a one shot solution for my uncle's farm. I have been in discussions with a company that is already in the business of providing wood burning stove installations. They want to expand into alternative energy solutions because so far they already have 40 customers that are off- grid. The area I live in is thinly populated. The logging industry has been devastated by a beetle infestation that most likely will kill the industry.

An agronomist predicts that with climatic change much of this devastated forest area will become cattle grazing land in a decade or so. If you can grow grass/hay for cattle feed, you can grow oil producing plants. This is an opportunity to develop a self supporting operation whereby these new cattle ranches can grow their own generator fuel.

It is also a function of the Diesel pump pressure and the size of the injection hole. With a very high pressure and a very small hole, you can get much better combustion. Modern car engines using the common rail system are well over 1000 Bar = 14,540 odd Ponds/Sq.Inch.....this self ignites even under freezing point without the glow plugs!

If your pressure is relatively low, pre-warming of the Salad oil will be a must I feel......20 years ago, here in Germany we had cold winters, no winter diesel and we had to pre-warm even Diesel fuel!!

I'm pretty sure these small utility engines will never get a common rail fuel system. which implies they wil also have cold weather starting problems. Okay; that can be dealt with. I still have a fuel filter from an old truck I sccrapped which also included an electric heater. These can still be purchased from Auto supply stores.

My current truck has an in-line heater which can be adapted to any fuel tank. For stationary generator applications where space is not as critical there is room to contrive a header tank that is heated either by engine cooling air or by some other means.

>This is an opportunity to develop a self supporting operation whereby these new cattle

>ranches can grow their own generator fuel.

Very interesting... I have been sketching same kind of solutions thus I haven't made any real plans yet. My target is in 2 or 3 years. Target is to produce heat and electricity and I am considering as sources oil (rapeseed oil, fish oil...), wood (chips or carbon monoxide) and bio gas. The power plant would be based on diesel generator or steam turbine. (For pure electricity I'm considering also sun, wind and mini-hydroelectric-plant) As I told earlier, my plans are in concept level still, but if you like you can contact me.

for off-grid applications I feel it is best to use some type of storage such as batteries or pumped resevoir instead of AC generation. AC generators are inherently wasteful because they seldom have load matched to output capacity. With storage you can match the motor loading closely to the storage capacity and achieve fuel efficiencies and motor efficiencies.

This can cut fuel burn in half, regardless of what fuel is used.

In addition its often easier to scale up the operation by placing more units in parallel with DC than with AC generators. It is almost impossible to find generator sets under 25 kW with paralling droop controls as a standard feature. Adding it as a custom fitted extra becomes cost prohibitive.

It might be possible to have part of the (metal) fuel line near the injectors be also part of the preheat system. In other words perhaps" apply a low wattage low voltage (to reduce sparks) to use the resistance in the metal fuel line to create resistive heat right at the point of entry. (partial solution maybe) . Again separate battery from starting battery. Isolate the battery using a diode that it recharges fine but only runs the preheat (not the starting motor circuit).

Also for ac current: Aren't there certain types alternator/regulator combos that would increasingly be harder to turn as the electrical load increase. This method should use less fuel for less loads.

An example would be to start your car and then hook up an inverter and try to run a refrigerator, you should hear the car engine load up momentary change in idle speed as the adjustment in fuel needed is applied by auto computer. (We have run full size refrigerators on inverters as small as 750 watts. Takes two or three trys to get it to start etc. But it did make ice after 45 minutes, best to use at least 1200 watt inverter).

Although, we have heard people say that the small generator can run up to max output on almost same fuel. Probably somewhere in between is the truth.

DC is best for storage (offset saving by $$ battery life cycle), although I think there must be some way to lift some kind of heavy weight or compressed air to provide the potential energy storage without the batteries? The indians now have a compressed air car that supposed runs for 40 miles? on one compressed air charge? that charge allegedly takes only a few minutes to recharge from special high capacity tank. You might consider using something like that.

TripleBatteryLife wrote: It might be possible to have part of the (metal) fuel line near the injectors be also part of the preheat system. In other words perhaps" apply a low wattage low voltage (to reduce sparks) to use the resistance in the metal fuel line to create resistive heat right at the point of entry. (partial solution maybe) .

REPLY: The fuel line pre heater on my FORD is located between the lift pump and the filter. It's powered by 12V from the start battery. It is turned off by ignition switch. Why reinvent the wheel? In a stationary power plant installation, space is not as critical and a pre heat setup btween tank and motor would be acceptable.

Again separate battery from starting battery. Isolate the battery using a diode that it recharges fine but only runs the preheat (not the starting motor circuit).

REPLY would not even be required if I use the house heating system to preheat the fuel. Incidentally I never had a problem with fuel preheat run from start battery in three diesel trucks I owned over a period of 20 years. You are inventing problems that never materialized in real life applications.

Triplebattery life wrote: Also for ac current: Aren't there certain types alternator/regulator combos that would increasingly be harder to turn as the electrical load increase. This method should use less fuel for less loads.

REPLY: that is essentially what I am talking about. The difference being the loading is controlled by how much storage charging you do, not by the random loading by appliances, lights, etc in the houehold. These things are already well documented and known for decades.

An example would be to start your car and then hook up an inverter and try to run a refrigerator, you should hear the car engine load up momentary change in idle speed as the adjustment in fuel needed is applied by auto computer.

REPLY: yes I have done the same during power outages.

DC is best for storage (offset saving by $$ battery life cycle), although I think there must be some way to lift some kind of heavy weight or compressed air to provide the potential energy storage without the batteries?

REPLY: Yes, most often referred to as pumped storage. Water being the most commonly used substance. Compresesed air is more problematic if you intend to be legally compliant and safe. Pressure vessels of any kind, either air or steam, require testing to determine no micro cracks and or safety valve failurea have developed since last test. These tests must be documented and certified as being in accordance with local regulationds and safety standards. Its not the paper certificate so much as the actual test that is important. In bygone days too many lives were lost because people ignored this or were ignorant of the consequence.

Pumped water storage is often less expensive to accomplish compared to stored compressed air. Also safer in most cases.

This thread is morphing away from the central issue of fuel for prime mover. The design criteria being to develop a non-fossil fuel source that allows existing design engines to be converted. a second goal is to use as much existing designs and technology that is already mass produced and have correspondingly lower cost to consumer than brand new untried and custom made machinery. There are literally millions of existing small utility diesel engines around the world. These can be converted to run on a new non fossil fuel that can be sourced locally by a farmer running a relatively small farm and at relatively small cash outlay. In addition it should be independent of expensive infra- structure that requires either government or big business intervention.

Once the fuel is secured the rest of the system can be built from existing equipment already on the market but assembled and used in a different way.

Elnav writes " The fuel line pre heater on my FORD is located between the lift pump and the filter. It's powered by 12V from the start battery. It is turned off by ignition switch. Why reinvent the wheel? In a stationary power plant installation, space is not as critical and a pre heat setup between tank and motor would be acceptable."

I was thinking about not being able to use house current to preheat (or not wanting to in the case of no grid power). IE Vehicle or remote location. Also veg oil is not as easy to start with in cold weather as diesal fuel is. I have been told and seen that the veg oil *(Rape seed / cannola oil) does indeed 'sometimes; require preheating to start after sitting for hours in minus weather and that the preheater if not using separate battery does indeed drain the starting battery (if you have a weak battery or partially drained battery or hard starting condition that is major problem.. hence the separate preheat battery might just save your bacon and does alleviate the problem).

ELnav writes: "You are inventing problems that never materialized in real life applications."

Reply: You need to provide more information than to inform us at the last that you want to use house current.. If you ask a question and someone trys to help you you shouldn't condemn them as inventing problems that never materialize (and this one could if if you didn't have house current which you didn't tell us you wanted to use).

Elnav Writes: "Incidentally I never had a problem with fuel preheat run from start battery in three diesel trucks I owned over a period of 20 years. You are inventing problems that never materialized in real life applications."

Reply: We are talking about VEG oil not diesel. (ref your original question threat)

If you are using diesel this whole discussion has no bearing.

Thanks for the negative experience when we tried to help you. May the good spirit help you in your endeavors.

I think at this point we should clear up the differences between cold diesel and cold vegetable oil!!! Some of you appear not to fully understand the differences....

Cold diesel, with nothing in it to winterize it, is a bit thicker, but the big problem is that paraffin wax (like candles!) forms flakes. These flakes collect in the filter system and eventually block it completely. So you do have a short amount of running time (I would guess for a car at 10 - 15 minutes), before the filter gets blocked, therefore most of the diesel heaters (mostly integral to the filter) only take current from the vehicle WHEN THE MOTOR IS ACTUALLY RUNNING, not before. Thats why you get no problems with trucks in winter with such a pre-heater....somebody mentioned that already...

But with vegetable oil, the situation is different, the oil gets thick and gooey and difficult to move!!!! Therefore this oil has to be warmed BEFORE starting the engine, or even better, the engine is started on diesel, the current from the motor alternator starts warming up the Vegetable oil and then at some point, you switch over......(I am not a vegetable oil expert!! There are better methods I am sure than this!!)

With Diesel cars, years ago we used to add up to 5 % petrol (or special fluids formulated for such usage) to the diesel tank in winter in order to dissolve the paraffin wax flakes. Whether that will also work for vegetable oil to stop it thickening I cannot say.....the petrol method should not be "over" used as the diesel pump was not originally designed to pump petrol and wear & tear will be accelerated!! Petrol does not lubricate....

I hope this helps out!!

Andy wrote: But with vegetable oil, the situation is different, the oil gets thick and gooey and difficult to move!!!! Therefore this oil has to be warmed BEFORE starting the engine, or even better, the engine is started on diesel, the current from the motor alternator starts warming up the Vegetable oil and then at some point, you switch over......(I am not a vegetable oil expert!! There are better methods I am sure than this!!)

REPLY: This project for a specifc company with existing customers is predicated on them already having thewood fired hot water boiler. The boiler is usually outdoor in a central location. Hot water pipes are run to the various outbuilding that require heat. It would not be a problem to add one mor eheat loop for a oil storage tank.

These boilers burn free wood. In some cases people pay to have the free wood trucked to the farm or homestead. Adding a heater to the oil storage tank is not big a cost item.

But the point being these converted diesel engines are not being run on cold oil. It has been pre heated. The mention of a fuel line pre heater only dealt with reheating to cover the possible heat loss ocuring from warm storage tank to actual engine. A distance of 10 - 10 feet.

I see where you are coming from, but the inefficiencies of what you propose are dreadful!!

The usual way is not to heat the whole storage tank, which might have enough oil for weeks of running, but to have oil supply pipes from the tank, that are of a large diameter, so as to allow the thicker oil still to flow/be pumped in its cold condition and then heat maybe a small tank, as near to the point of usage as practicable and to have it insulated to reduce heat losses....

Running hot water pipes around a large area is also not very practical or financially attractive either....

Well of course! Gee Andy. However this stupid little text window simply isn't big enough for me to write whole engineering manual by way of explanation. I guess you haven't seen one of these installation since such wood smoke producers are probably illegal in Germany. But they are still legal out here in what amounts to frontier country.

Of course I would use a heated day tank, not heat a whole years supply at once. In that sense it's not that different from a ship where you heat the Bunker C before injecting it into the boilers.

Secondly, the generator and fuel supply is likely to be placed close to, if not inside one of the hot water heated out buildings. So if the large oil storage tank is just outside, you gravity feed to the heated day tank. From there you feed the engine. Every single boiler installation I have seen so far is different. but most gensets are inside some kind of building.

The concept is what's important. Site specific engineering takes care of the variations to suit each installation. The fact remains that fire wood is readily available for free or very low cost. With heating taken care of you only need a limited amount of electrical energy for lighting and other power needs. With fossil fuel becoming increasingly expensive, any alternative with a lower cost of fuel will be scrutinized as to viability. If the rancher can convert a hundred acres out of the thousands of acres into fuel crop growing, it just might make economic sense.

Homesteaders wanting to get a setion, but not wanting to grow their own fuel may still be willing to buy vegetable based fuel from a supplier, if it cost less than fossil fuel diesel. Since they are starting out with a clean slate, they will need heat, light etc. So we sell them a package deal.

they will also be willing to look at genset configuratiosn that reduce the amount of fuel burned compared to the old conventional way of running an AC genset 24/7 regardless of loading. You have mentioned installing inverters so you already know what I'm talking about.

None of this is new stuff. However it's new to the people in this region. i call it application engineering

Right, best to not forget to purge system before shutdown. cold stories !

In england they are using "Rape" seed oil, which is their version of our "cannola" oil. It indeed is thicker in cold climates but with some manipulations (2 tanks, one diesal, one oil, and preheaters with separate batteries, mixing diesal with the oil, etc). it works !

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