No, so I had a look. Here's what the website had to say.......

The PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter is a breakthrough new technology that could get your car up to five times the gas mileage!

Our scientific testing has led us to believe that the PICC will increase the mileage of all personal vehicles to over 100 miles per gallon (city or highway).

Now, the engine used only 2 pounds of fuel instead of 18 — an increase in efficiency of 9x

We believe based on results like these that our plasma could revolutionize fuel economy for ALL vehicles — including SUVs and Pickups — that should easily get better than 100 miles per gallon with the PICC

So no, it very much looks like a scam to me (a variant of one of the many other lets change the fuel into some other form so it produces far more energy than is theoretically possible given a 100% efficient conversion process). Do not waste your money on such an obvious scam (save it for the less obvious ones).

You say it looks like a scam and I am witnessing the HAFC working. So, all I have to say is that this is a very good scam where a man advertises in 4 major magazines, makes claims on a public website and sells kits to people who then give their testimonial. All of us must be lying. That seems far fetched to me.

Have you really done your homework. Or is this just... everything you don't believe in is a scam routine... without looking at the facts.

We have found, in the past, that it is standard practice for government agents to go online and spend all their working hours discrediting those that bring or are trying to bring suppressed technology to market. I can't figure out why people so many people can't think for themselves in so many cases.

By the way are you saying the HAFC is not working or the PICC is a scam?

How many people have to report success before you will believe it. Or are we all in a big scam together?

I think myself and others have covered the science behind much of the technology, including the previous and current rehashing of similar scams both here and in previous threads.

So, all I have to say is that this is a very good scam where a man advertises in 4 major magazines, makes claims on a public website and sells kits to people who then give their testimonial.

To you I would say - just because you advertise does not mean it works (how do you sell if you don't advertise?), making claims on a public website (so?), and selling kits and putting testimonials on the website. From post #12..........

The testimonials are an interesting read also.

"It's wonderful to be part of the solution for the environment."
#1 Grand Master Technician, Ontario, Canada

I have never heard of a grand master technician, which kind of makes me think that upon all of this bad science and re-hashing of old free-energy and miracle mileage increasing scams, they made up the testimonials.

We have found, in the past, that it is standard practice for government agents to go online and spend all their working hours discrediting those that bring or are trying to bring suppressed technology to market. I can't figure out why people so many people can't think for themselves in so many cases.

Congratulations, you are the first one this year to accuse me of being a "man in black" from the petrol industry trying to suppress technology, when in fact I am quite the opposite (did you read any of my other posts here in in previous threads).

How many people have to report success before you will believe it. Or are we all in a big scam together?

Made-up people with made-up titles don't count.

Folks, it is SCAM, I guarantee you 100%, it's a SCAM. I'm a business person who does millions of transactions worldwide, I know scammers well, I know their psychology, it's a SCAM, Guaranteed. Don't fall for it! Here are some facts: they have no contact phone, their email is yahoo based, they don't accept redit cards, etc. etc. everything they write and say tells me it's a 110% guarantee - it is a SCAM! A filthy one!

we have installed many of these units...they WORK!! Frank in Indiana

IF it is a scam why is there a 100% satisfaction guarantee(50% increase or money back)? Also they do accept major credit cards, through PayPal, which will refund your money & do the investigation themselves if unsatisfied. They don't offer a phone number, because all distributors are independant with leads fed to them via the website and the customer is contacted by the independant distrubutor who makes $150 per unit sold. When is the last time you called goodyear corporate offices when your tire went flat? Know the facts....or shut up.

"IF it is a scam why is there a 100% satisfaction guarantee(50% increase or money back)? Also they do accept major credit cards, through PayPal"

I assume from your post that you are either a dealer for this "enterprise", or you are waiting for what seems to be an eternity for the system you ordered to show up or simply staring at the random home depot/ radio shack contents and piss poor instructions of your beautifully designed opened HAFC box hoping against all hope that if it doesn't work on your vehicle there will still be some way to return it for your money back. But of course I have been known to be wrong.

The warranty is crap. Read my earlier post #158. I'm sure you have read the install instructions online or perhaps you are looking through them now.

And, I should hope they use paypal. After all, my wife uses paypal to sell my kids old toys and crap on ebay. You know, I hear so much crap from the mouths of HAFC dealers/buyers. Since I know one of the soon..... to be owners of this thing I hear all kind of garbage like how one of the head honchos in the company explained to her in detail that a car only burns 15% of its fuel in the engine. The rest all burns up in the CC. WTF over. That would mean that my car (before I changed anything) getting about 25mpg average for the tank is only using about 2 1/2 cups of fuel to go about 25 miles. That sounds efficient enough for me. And the CC's are built well enough to sustain burning the left over 108 ounces (16 cups) every hour on average. Thats garbage....

Also, post #151 mentions the enormity of the company.

"With an organization this large and a product so new to the market it is no wonder that there is a messy sales model."

Yet, my friendly neighborhood HAFC dealer said that she was told her kit is taking so long to get here because the company is so small.

Oh, and don't forget about Bush driving around in the Dutchman prototype...

I have never called Goodyear but I did call several WIREC officials including the gentlemen at media inquiries, exhibiting and sponsoring, and the very nice lady from official side events. They were all more than happy to speak with me yet none of them could recall anything significant about Dutchman enterprises LLC or booth 411.

I do apologize for being a bit short and cynical and do believe aspects of the HAFC to be affective. I just think that the company and all aspects of it are horses#!t.

Thanks

Dan

We do take credit cards, we have contact information, an email address that is not yahoo based, etc, etc ,etc. Where do you get your info? Why so negative? don't you have anything better to do? If you don't believe, then don't buy one, it's as simple as that. Hmmmmm, Do you work for an oil company?

as I say on

www.phact.org/hafc.htm

it is most likely a scam, but if it is not, it would make sense to openly prove it to INDEPENDENT people. I'm not going to guess your ethics or that of other MJM participants. If someone with it in my area would take an hour to let me do a simple test, I would post the results - if very high, I would do a 180 and actively promote it - especially to media people who I have in the past been very instrumental to write articles exposing ex convict Dennis Lee who is behind it.

Are you willing to help get the truth out and actually demo your car to others? and maybe get dealers to show me so I can eat crow?

if the claim is real, I will tell the rest of the skeptics to get behind it so we can balance our trade deficit, slow global warming, stop a million pollution deaths a year, get you MLM people rich, tell OPEC to cram it and usher in a new clean age of prosperity.

eric krieg

Hello Eric, I recieved my HAFC today, I'm trying to have it installed on my truck next week. I'll be glad to have you visit and do an independent test with me. I'm in South Jersey , where are you? BillyD

Good on ya Billy. Its about time someone actually got one.

I hope your install goes better than Brantes. http://cr4.globalspec.com/search/sitesearch?do=show&us=12893&srchobjs=t,be,c

Good luck Billy.

Dan

Thanks Dan, My mechanic is trying to fit me in this week for the install. He has a Dyno which should help maximize the systems potential. I'll be honest about the results, good or bad, hope it's good.Billy

Glad to hear it BillyD.

Shoot me an email, I would love to have some pics, etc.

Don't forget you may want to adjust the map/maf sensors too if you wish to help maximize results.

I have been told that the mechanics who fiddle with these are seeing 100% - 300% improvement. I think it is worth exploring.

Hello Wayne, Thanks for the tip, I'll pass it on to my mechanic, he'll know what you mean. If we can see results like that I'll be bouncing off the wall. I'll get you some pics also. Thanks, Billy

Don't forget you may want to adjust the map/maf sensors too if you wish to help maximize results.

This I thought was accomplished by the o2ptimizer included with the HAFC kit. If not, there is a simple circuit you can make for 10-15 bucks depending on the type of MAP or MAF sensor you have. http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoMAPsensor.htm (These guys use it to get more fuel but it works well to lean the mix as well. Most MAP sensors have a 5 volt reference in, ground and a DC signal out. By adjusting the voltage reference slightly lower you can better your lean out limits. Too far and your engine will stop... If you are driving a Ford, Mazda, Jaguar, or Infinite then you most likely will have another type of MAP. This has a 5volt reference in, ground, and frequency output. This one is a bit easier and much cheaper. Cut the ground wire and install a 10-15ohm resistor. Or you can use a small value pot so that you can adjust as necessary.

If you have an older MAF sensor you can accomplish lower lean out limits by taking off the plastic cover and tightening the tension on the spring of the wiper. Most newer MAF sensors have a frequency output. Simply cut the ground wire and again use 10-15 ohm resisters or a small pot to adjust output. The other MAF sensor that is not so common is a voltage out like the first MAP sensor mentioned. You can adjust this with the simple circuit the same way.

However, doing this will advance your timing. Which from my understanding is counterproductive when using HHO. You can answer this with a parallel resistor (10-20kohms) across you intake air temp sensor. Do not replace the sensor with the resistor. Place the resistor across the wires so that there are to paths for the signal to travel. Then, plug up the cold air tube from the fender if your intake has that style. Try to take your intake air from a warm spot in the engine compartment.

I'm guessing the O2ptimizer will take care of the o2 sensor. If not, then it probably doesn't do anything but look cool. I would think it works though. Tricking the o2 is fairly simple as well.

This is pretty much all I have found to help so far. If anyone sees anything wrong/incorrect with what I wrote please correct me.

Remember Billy, running your car lean= running hot. I believe the HHO is supposed to battle this. I don't know, I have not used HHO yet. I run my car lean using these little tricks for a bit but didn't have the proper indicators and I did not want to F up the motor before I could record any true results.

Have fun Billy,

Dan

Great info Dan,

We didn't learn about the map/maf sensors until after the 3x Optimizer was manufactured. The Optimizer is handling the O2 and Thermister. I wouldn't doubt that map/maf would be included in future versions of the optimizer.

Throw on your Ohm Ranger http://www.ohmite.com/cgi-bin/showpage.cgi?product=ohm_ranger and find that sweet spot before you spend all that time soldering for your map/maf.

Good link...

A small value potentiometer (adjustable resister) is only a buck or 2 at radio shack and will do the job of the ohm ranger. It is great to have one anyway though.

Dan

Speaking of Brante, I sent him a message a few days back and haven't gotten a response.Bill

BillyD where in south Jersey are you. I lived in Somerdale from 1957 til I moved to florida in 1970. I still have family in south Jersey.

Yoomuchfun

I live in the Erial section of Gloucester Twp. off Berlin Cross Keys rd. Grew up in Runnemede on Big Timber Creek. Did you know the Donofrios? I think they lived on Sunset. I have family in Palm Bay , Florida, I was just there for ten days, nice and warm. I'm thinking about picking up a foreclosure down there in the fall. I like the clean water and warm climate, I'm tired of winter weather. Guess that happens when you get older. Bill

I lived on Mildred Ave. I know the big Timber creek area well as I used to hunt for rabbits and pheasants all along the wooded areas and farms there. No, I don't remember the Donofrios. Seems like there were several Sunsets in the local subdivisions. I lived just off Warwick Rd. Between Somerdale Rd and the RR tracks by Magnolia. I am 65 and I can tell you about more cold weather than this person even wants to remember. Be careful about real estate investments. I first moved to Florida in 1970. Property was still dirt cheap, if you knew the market. Florida has a lot of hidden problems for the investors in land. Things like impact fees to get building permits. Land clearing permits etc. I suggest that you get to know the market in any area before buying. Palm Bay is about 3 hrs or more north of Sebring, and on the East coast. My wife and I are considering buying a homestead up around Madison or Jefferson Counties. In Florida so many folks who have lived here for some time who migrated form up north are considered 1/4 backs if we move north and remain in Florida and 1/2 backs if we move up into the Carolinas. I would like to share more of the HHO experience with you Et.Al. as this week continues.

Toomuchfun

I used to hunt the dairies with my dad. We lived on Singley ave , right on the creek. I used to play in the barn by the fork before one of the Runnnemede kids burned it down. (hearsay) Learned how to swim, boat and fish in Big Timber. I know Florida does have some pitfalls, my cousin pays $3,800 for hazard insurance. My cousin from Palm Bay just bought a home on 2 acres about 45 minutes away from Ashville, NC They're hoping to retire there in 2-3 years, said Florida isn't what it used to be. I'll keep you posted as things proceed. Bill

Tell me more, I am an automotive technician and own my own private repair facility.

I would appreciate any input about this device, since it's not possible to easily communicate with the people that are producing this product.

I am extremely excited to begin offering this to my customers.

Thank you in advance for anything you are moved to share with me.

Neal S. Munson

Owner /Operator Applegate Automotive

Philomath, Oregon

I'll send you an email.

-Wayne

Hello Neal , I will be glad to share my results with you, I'm in NJ, recieved my fuel cell today. I'll be glad to share any resuluts I have with you. Billyd

yes, it is a scam, a big one. ex convict Dennis Lee is behind it - he has been doing high mileage scams for 6 years and still promising free electricity for the last 20 years - more on him and the government screwing up chances to get him in jail at

www.phact.org/e/dennis.html

if it really worked, they'd use some of these hundreds of modified cars to get independent validation

Dear Jack,

During the 1st world war, and the depression, farmers in this country and even the general public in Europe, used a sort of double boiler contraption to create a fuel gas that they could burn in tractor, stationary engines and even cars. They would place wood chips in the hopper on top and set it on fire. The smoldering wood would not completely burn all of the available fuel. As the result this excess unburned fuel gas was captured in the second boiler and then piped to the ICE. Engines will run on propane,natural gas, hydrogen, hydroxy, and virtually any fuel gas. I suspect that the PICC is nothing more than an expansion of this very old technology. Likely it is best suitable for use with stationary engines. I don't know enough about the product being offered to day for sale to condem it. I suspect that like the miriad of hho boosters being offered for sale today, they can stand to be better refined before going to market.

Toomuchfun

about 10-15 percent increase fuel miliage

The system also uses six powerful magnets that ionize the gasoline to produce smaller molecules and help separate the compounds into simple elements so they burn more completely.

To ionize gas you would have to strip electrons from it and I don't think magnets have any effect on gas. You could test this with a powerful rare earth magnet, a glass pipette, and some gas. Time the pipette draining then tape the magnet to the side of the tip so the gas flow is not changed except for the magnetic field and try it again with the same volume. Then tell us the results.

My wallet is as nervous as a sardine running with dolphins around these guys.

If it worked it would be one out of 10,000 snake oil sellers.

My opinion

Brad

Don't spend a dime until you know. Just stop slamming what you don't!

"If you really want to know follow the money..." That's the truth how about a16 TRILLION DOLOR A YEAR OIL SCAM. Folks the PICC technology was at the Washington International Renewable Energy Conference. I was displayed for the President. Would this be the best place to bring a scam? WAKE UP PEOPLE! The EPA protects oil interests the FDA protects drug companies. You are being scammed every time you fill your tank and you don't know it.... Yet...

Use your God given brain and do some research on energy suppression.. You won't have to look to hard. The major media will not tell you about it. Who do you think owns CNN/FOX... Same group. WAKE UP!!!!

You are acting exactly how they want you to. Good little sheeple. I woke up a few months ago. Join the revolution. It's better on this side.

Try this http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/15525#newcomments If you want to get around the oil companies, I know I do.

What I do know is the Hydro assisted fuel cell marketing sucks, their technical releases suck, and most persons who could figure out to make something like this work could do better from a public library for the tech briefs and marketing.

Does the product work? Who can tell. but if they want respect then give it. As in don't bullshit me with vapor ware. I try and build designs all the time. Some to just see what happens. I'm in the process of building a second shop because the first ran out of room. Next will be my forge and casting setup.

Should I support these guys or something better? I think I'll mess with auto reforming because the fuel out is better than the energy in. Then a multi fueled turbine for a Hybrid car.

Can the piston engine be improved? Lots. But who could afford it? the major improvements needed are an order of magnitude in cost. And I think the auto co's., oil co's., and bank's stockholders are in bed together. Otherwise some innovation would have leaped the industry ahead by now.

So Chattel prove me wrong. I'd love to see the petrol system become obsolete. But are you going to take a calculated risk or a gamble on something presented like vapor ware?

Revolt all you want but don't let your emotions control your direction.

Brad

Here is the article, from the link, I posted on another thread.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/174900

No.

Anything that uses the word "Miracle" in it is suspect.

Anything that claims you can get over 100MPG from any vehicle by using it - bogus

Think about it.

If this actually worked, the auto industry would be buying the rights to fit it as standard equipment. They are not, so its a load of cods-wallop.

If you are needing to relieve your wallet of some hard earned cash, send me a check. I guarantee I'll cash it.

At least everything I've said is true.......

actually, motorcycles used to get nearly that high a mileage. I seem to recall a two-stroke datsun that exceeded 150.

that said, I hit this string in my quest to determine whether or not it IS snakeoil.

Auto manufacturers would not buy though; those who have the most to lose would: Big Oil/Government

Ultimately, Higher mileage vehicles are the driving force (pardon the pun) behind higher gas prices. If we use less, they MUST charge more. Since gas is taxed as a percentage of the price, not a set amount per gallon, How quickly will the government turn down voluntary money.

I see that you are from Canada. Several years ago, I had a friend building dodge neon's, some for sale stateside, some for Canada. Stateside we have been using low-lead/no-lead gas since the seventies. So, the neon's being built for here were laden with emission controls; to protect the environment. And these vehicle got a respectable 30+ MPG. The Canadian version; Ran on good old fashion leaded fuel and pulled 50+ MPG. I ask which is more environmentally friendly. Remember, ours is dictated by a governmental body charged with protecting the environment.

I checked into this pretty exhaustively. The product (HAPC and its companion PICC) is marketed by a man named Dennis Lee who has some Christian-based cult called "United Community Services of America" (UCSA). They are forbidden by law from marketing their "wares" in about five states where those states' consumer protection attorneys have apparently stopped them. This Hydro Assist Fuel Cell is one of the latest things they are trying to foist upon an unsuspecting public at considerable cost.

It will probably be very difficult to enforce their "guarantee", and it will most certainly cost a fair amount in time and money to pursue any refund once you find out that the technology basically does not do as promised. It would be wonderful, but it