No, so I had a look. Here's what the website had to say.......

The PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter is a breakthrough new technology that could get your car up to five times the gas mileage!

Our scientific testing has led us to believe that the PICC will increase the mileage of all personal vehicles to over 100 miles per gallon (city or highway).

Now, the engine used only 2 pounds of fuel instead of 18 — an increase in efficiency of 9x

We believe based on results like these that our plasma could revolutionize fuel economy for ALL vehicles — including SUVs and Pickups — that should easily get better than 100 miles per gallon with the PICC

So no, it very much looks like a scam to me (a variant of one of the many other lets change the fuel into some other form so it produces far more energy than is theoretically possible given a 100% efficient conversion process). Do not waste your money on such an obvious scam (save it for the less obvious ones).

You say it looks like a scam and I am witnessing the HAFC working. So, all I have to say is that this is a very good scam where a man advertises in 4 major magazines, makes claims on a public website and sells kits to people who then give their testimonial. All of us must be lying. That seems far fetched to me.

Have you really done your homework. Or is this just... everything you don't believe in is a scam routine... without looking at the facts.

We have found, in the past, that it is standard practice for government agents to go online and spend all their working hours discrediting those that bring or are trying to bring suppressed technology to market. I can't figure out why people so many people can't think for themselves in so many cases.

By the way are you saying the HAFC is not working or the PICC is a scam?

How many people have to report success before you will believe it. Or are we all in a big scam together?

I think myself and others have covered the science behind much of the technology, including the previous and current rehashing of similar scams both here and in previous threads.

So, all I have to say is that this is a very good scam where a man advertises in 4 major magazines, makes claims on a public website and sells kits to people who then give their testimonial.

To you I would say - just because you advertise does not mean it works (how do you sell if you don't advertise?), making claims on a public website (so?), and selling kits and putting testimonials on the website. From post #12..........

The testimonials are an interesting read also.

"It's wonderful to be part of the solution for the environment."
#1 Grand Master Technician, Ontario, Canada

I have never heard of a grand master technician, which kind of makes me think that upon all of this bad science and re-hashing of old free-energy and miracle mileage increasing scams, they made up the testimonials.

We have found, in the past, that it is standard practice for government agents to go online and spend all their working hours discrediting those that bring or are trying to bring suppressed technology to market. I can't figure out why people so many people can't think for themselves in so many cases.

Congratulations, you are the first one this year to accuse me of being a "man in black" from the petrol industry trying to suppress technology, when in fact I am quite the opposite (did you read any of my other posts here in in previous threads).

How many people have to report success before you will believe it. Or are we all in a big scam together?

Made-up people with made-up titles don't count.

Folks, it is SCAM, I guarantee you 100%, it's a SCAM. I'm a business person who does millions of transactions worldwide, I know scammers well, I know their psychology, it's a SCAM, Guaranteed. Don't fall for it! Here are some facts: they have no contact phone, their email is yahoo based, they don't accept redit cards, etc. etc. everything they write and say tells me it's a 110% guarantee - it is a SCAM! A filthy one!

we have installed many of these units...they WORK!! Frank in Indiana

IF it is a scam why is there a 100% satisfaction guarantee(50% increase or money back)? Also they do accept major credit cards, through PayPal, which will refund your money & do the investigation themselves if unsatisfied. They don't offer a phone number, because all distributors are independant with leads fed to them via the website and the customer is contacted by the independant distrubutor who makes $150 per unit sold. When is the last time you called goodyear corporate offices when your tire went flat? Know the facts....or shut up.

"IF it is a scam why is there a 100% satisfaction guarantee(50% increase or money back)? Also they do accept major credit cards, through PayPal"

I assume from your post that you are either a dealer for this "enterprise", or you are waiting for what seems to be an eternity for the system you ordered to show up or simply staring at the random home depot/ radio shack contents and piss poor instructions of your beautifully designed opened HAFC box hoping against all hope that if it doesn't work on your vehicle there will still be some way to return it for your money back. But of course I have been known to be wrong.

The warranty is crap. Read my earlier post #158. I'm sure you have read the install instructions online or perhaps you are looking through them now.

And, I should hope they use paypal. After all, my wife uses paypal to sell my kids old toys and crap on ebay. You know, I hear so much crap from the mouths of HAFC dealers/buyers. Since I know one of the soon..... to be owners of this thing I hear all kind of garbage like how one of the head honchos in the company explained to her in detail that a car only burns 15% of its fuel in the engine. The rest all burns up in the CC. WTF over. That would mean that my car (before I changed anything) getting about 25mpg average for the tank is only using about 2 1/2 cups of fuel to go about 25 miles. That sounds efficient enough for me. And the CC's are built well enough to sustain burning the left over 108 ounces (16 cups) every hour on average. Thats garbage....

Also, post #151 mentions the enormity of the company.

"With an organization this large and a product so new to the market it is no wonder that there is a messy sales model."

Yet, my friendly neighborhood HAFC dealer said that she was told her kit is taking so long to get here because the company is so small.

Oh, and don't forget about Bush driving around in the Dutchman prototype...

I have never called Goodyear but I did call several WIREC officials including the gentlemen at media inquiries, exhibiting and sponsoring, and the very nice lady from official side events. They were all more than happy to speak with me yet none of them could recall anything significant about Dutchman enterprises LLC or booth 411.

I do apologize for being a bit short and cynical and do believe aspects of the HAFC to be affective. I just think that the company and all aspects of it are horses#!t.

Thanks

Dan

We do take credit cards, we have contact information, an email address that is not yahoo based, etc, etc ,etc. Where do you get your info? Why so negative? don't you have anything better to do? If you don't believe, then don't buy one, it's as simple as that. Hmmmmm, Do you work for an oil company?

as I say on

www.phact.org/hafc.htm

it is most likely a scam, but if it is not, it would make sense to openly prove it to INDEPENDENT people. I'm not going to guess your ethics or that of other MJM participants. If someone with it in my area would take an hour to let me do a simple test, I would post the results - if very high, I would do a 180 and actively promote it - especially to media people who I have in the past been very instrumental to write articles exposing ex convict Dennis Lee who is behind it.

Are you willing to help get the truth out and actually demo your car to others? and maybe get dealers to show me so I can eat crow?

if the claim is real, I will tell the rest of the skeptics to get behind it so we can balance our trade deficit, slow global warming, stop a million pollution deaths a year, get you MLM people rich, tell OPEC to cram it and usher in a new clean age of prosperity.

eric krieg

Hello Eric, I recieved my HAFC today, I'm trying to have it installed on my truck next week. I'll be glad to have you visit and do an independent test with me. I'm in South Jersey , where are you? BillyD

Good on ya Billy. Its about time someone actually got one.

I hope your install goes better than Brantes. http://cr4.globalspec.com/search/sitesearch?do=show&us=12893&srchobjs=t,be,c

Good luck Billy.

Dan

Thanks Dan, My mechanic is trying to fit me in this week for the install. He has a Dyno which should help maximize the systems potential. I'll be honest about the results, good or bad, hope it's good.Billy

Glad to hear it BillyD.

Shoot me an email, I would love to have some pics, etc.

Don't forget you may want to adjust the map/maf sensors too if you wish to help maximize results.

I have been told that the mechanics who fiddle with these are seeing 100% - 300% improvement. I think it is worth exploring.

Hello Wayne, Thanks for the tip, I'll pass it on to my mechanic, he'll know what you mean. If we can see results like that I'll be bouncing off the wall. I'll get you some pics also. Thanks, Billy

Don't forget you may want to adjust the map/maf sensors too if you wish to help maximize results.

This I thought was accomplished by the o2ptimizer included with the HAFC kit. If not, there is a simple circuit you can make for 10-15 bucks depending on the type of MAP or MAF sensor you have. http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoMAPsensor.htm (These guys use it to get more fuel but it works well to lean the mix as well. Most MAP sensors have a 5 volt reference in, ground and a DC signal out. By adjusting the voltage reference slightly lower you can better your lean out limits. Too far and your engine will stop... If you are driving a Ford, Mazda, Jaguar, or Infinite then you most likely will have another type of MAP. This has a 5volt reference in, ground, and frequency output. This one is a bit easier and much cheaper. Cut the ground wire and install a 10-15ohm resistor. Or you can use a small value pot so that you can adjust as necessary.

If you have an older MAF sensor you can accomplish lower lean out limits by taking off the plastic cover and tightening the tension on the spring of the wiper. Most newer MAF sensors have a frequency output. Simply cut the ground wire and again use 10-15 ohm resisters or a small pot to adjust output. The other MAF sensor that is not so common is a voltage out like the first MAP sensor mentioned. You can adjust this with the simple circuit the same way.

However, doing this will advance your timing. Which from my understanding is counterproductive when using HHO. You can answer this with a parallel resistor (10-20kohms) across you intake air temp sensor. Do not replace the sensor with the resistor. Place the resistor across the wires so that there are to paths for the signal to travel. Then, plug up the cold air tube from the fender if your intake has that style. Try to take your intake air from a warm spot in the engine compartment.

I'm guessing the O2ptimizer will take care of the o2 sensor. If not, then it probably doesn't do anything but look cool. I would think it works though. Tricking the o2 is fairly simple as well.

This is pretty much all I have found to help so far. If anyone sees anything wrong/incorrect with what I wrote please correct me.

Remember Billy, running your car lean= running hot. I believe the HHO is supposed to battle this. I don't know, I have not used HHO yet. I run my car lean using these little tricks for a bit but didn't have the proper indicators and I did not want to F up the motor before I could record any true results.

Have fun Billy,

Dan

Great info Dan,

We didn't learn about the map/maf sensors until after the 3x Optimizer was manufactured. The Optimizer is handling the O2 and Thermister. I wouldn't doubt that map/maf would be included in future versions of the optimizer.

Throw on your Ohm Ranger http://www.ohmite.com/cgi-bin/showpage.cgi?product=ohm_ranger and find that sweet spot before you spend all that time soldering for your map/maf.

Good link...

A small value potentiometer (adjustable resister) is only a buck or 2 at radio shack and will do the job of the ohm ranger. It is great to have one anyway though.

Dan

Speaking of Brante, I sent him a message a few days back and haven't gotten a response.Bill

BillyD where in south Jersey are you. I lived in Somerdale from 1957 til I moved to florida in 1970. I still have family in south Jersey.

Yoomuchfun

I live in the Erial section of Gloucester Twp. off Berlin Cross Keys rd. Grew up in Runnemede on Big Timber Creek. Did you know the Donofrios? I think they lived on Sunset. I have family in Palm Bay , Florida, I was just there for ten days, nice and warm. I'm thinking about picking up a foreclosure down there in the fall. I like the clean water and warm climate, I'm tired of winter weather. Guess that happens when you get older. Bill

I lived on Mildred Ave. I know the big Timber creek area well as I used to hunt for rabbits and pheasants all along the wooded areas and farms there. No, I don't remember the Donofrios. Seems like there were several Sunsets in the local subdivisions. I lived just off Warwick Rd. Between Somerdale Rd and the RR tracks by Magnolia. I am 65 and I can tell you about more cold weather than this person even wants to remember. Be careful about real estate investments. I first moved to Florida in 1970. Property was still dirt cheap, if you knew the market. Florida has a lot of hidden problems for the investors in land. Things like impact fees to get building permits. Land clearing permits etc. I suggest that you get to know the market in any area before buying. Palm Bay is about 3 hrs or more north of Sebring, and on the East coast. My wife and I are considering buying a homestead up around Madison or Jefferson Counties. In Florida so many folks who have lived here for some time who migrated form up north are considered 1/4 backs if we move north and remain in Florida and 1/2 backs if we move up into the Carolinas. I would like to share more of the HHO experience with you Et.Al. as this week continues.

Toomuchfun

I used to hunt the dairies with my dad. We lived on Singley ave , right on the creek. I used to play in the barn by the fork before one of the Runnnemede kids burned it down. (hearsay) Learned how to swim, boat and fish in Big Timber. I know Florida does have some pitfalls, my cousin pays $3,800 for hazard insurance. My cousin from Palm Bay just bought a home on 2 acres about 45 minutes away from Ashville, NC They're hoping to retire there in 2-3 years, said Florida isn't what it used to be. I'll keep you posted as things proceed. Bill

Tell me more, I am an automotive technician and own my own private repair facility.

I would appreciate any input about this device, since it's not possible to easily communicate with the people that are producing this product.

I am extremely excited to begin offering this to my customers.

Thank you in advance for anything you are moved to share with me.

Neal S. Munson

Owner /Operator Applegate Automotive

Philomath, Oregon

I'll send you an email.

-Wayne

Hello Neal , I will be glad to share my results with you, I'm in NJ, recieved my fuel cell today. I'll be glad to share any resuluts I have with you. Billyd

yes, it is a scam, a big one. ex convict Dennis Lee is behind it - he has been doing high mileage scams for 6 years and still promising free electricity for the last 20 years - more on him and the government screwing up chances to get him in jail at

www.phact.org/e/dennis.html

if it really worked, they'd use some of these hundreds of modified cars to get independent validation

Dear Jack,

During the 1st world war, and the depression, farmers in this country and even the general public in Europe, used a sort of double boiler contraption to create a fuel gas that they could burn in tractor, stationary engines and even cars. They would place wood chips in the hopper on top and set it on fire. The smoldering wood would not completely burn all of the available fuel. As the result this excess unburned fuel gas was captured in the second boiler and then piped to the ICE. Engines will run on propane,natural gas, hydrogen, hydroxy, and virtually any fuel gas. I suspect that the PICC is nothing more than an expansion of this very old technology. Likely it is best suitable for use with stationary engines. I don't know enough about the product being offered to day for sale to condem it. I suspect that like the miriad of hho boosters being offered for sale today, they can stand to be better refined before going to market.

Toomuchfun

about 10-15 percent increase fuel miliage

The system also uses six powerful magnets that ionize the gasoline to produce smaller molecules and help separate the compounds into simple elements so they burn more completely.

To ionize gas you would have to strip electrons from it and I don't think magnets have any effect on gas. You could test this with a powerful rare earth magnet, a glass pipette, and some gas. Time the pipette draining then tape the magnet to the side of the tip so the gas flow is not changed except for the magnetic field and try it again with the same volume. Then tell us the results.

My wallet is as nervous as a sardine running with dolphins around these guys.

If it worked it would be one out of 10,000 snake oil sellers.

My opinion

Brad

Don't spend a dime until you know. Just stop slamming what you don't!

"If you really want to know follow the money..." That's the truth how about a16 TRILLION DOLOR A YEAR OIL SCAM. Folks the PICC technology was at the Washington International Renewable Energy Conference. I was displayed for the President. Would this be the best place to bring a scam? WAKE UP PEOPLE! The EPA protects oil interests the FDA protects drug companies. You are being scammed every time you fill your tank and you don't know it.... Yet...

Use your God given brain and do some research on energy suppression.. You won't have to look to hard. The major media will not tell you about it. Who do you think owns CNN/FOX... Same group. WAKE UP!!!!

You are acting exactly how they want you to. Good little sheeple. I woke up a few months ago. Join the revolution. It's better on this side.

Try this http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/15525#newcomments If you want to get around the oil companies, I know I do.

What I do know is the Hydro assisted fuel cell marketing sucks, their technical releases suck, and most persons who could figure out to make something like this work could do better from a public library for the tech briefs and marketing.

Does the product work? Who can tell. but if they want respect then give it. As in don't bullshit me with vapor ware. I try and build designs all the time. Some to just see what happens. I'm in the process of building a second shop because the first ran out of room. Next will be my forge and casting setup.

Should I support these guys or something better? I think I'll mess with auto reforming because the fuel out is better than the energy in. Then a multi fueled turbine for a Hybrid car.

Can the piston engine be improved? Lots. But who could afford it? the major improvements needed are an order of magnitude in cost. And I think the auto co's., oil co's., and bank's stockholders are in bed together. Otherwise some innovation would have leaped the industry ahead by now.

So Chattel prove me wrong. I'd love to see the petrol system become obsolete. But are you going to take a calculated risk or a gamble on something presented like vapor ware?

Revolt all you want but don't let your emotions control your direction.

Brad

Here is the article, from the link, I posted on another thread.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/174900

No.

Anything that uses the word "Miracle" in it is suspect.

Anything that claims you can get over 100MPG from any vehicle by using it - bogus

Think about it.

If this actually worked, the auto industry would be buying the rights to fit it as standard equipment. They are not, so its a load of cods-wallop.

If you are needing to relieve your wallet of some hard earned cash, send me a check. I guarantee I'll cash it.

At least everything I've said is true.......

actually, motorcycles used to get nearly that high a mileage. I seem to recall a two-stroke datsun that exceeded 150.

that said, I hit this string in my quest to determine whether or not it IS snakeoil.

Auto manufacturers would not buy though; those who have the most to lose would: Big Oil/Government

Ultimately, Higher mileage vehicles are the driving force (pardon the pun) behind higher gas prices. If we use less, they MUST charge more. Since gas is taxed as a percentage of the price, not a set amount per gallon, How quickly will the government turn down voluntary money.

I see that you are from Canada. Several years ago, I had a friend building dodge neon's, some for sale stateside, some for Canada. Stateside we have been using low-lead/no-lead gas since the seventies. So, the neon's being built for here were laden with emission controls; to protect the environment. And these vehicle got a respectable 30+ MPG. The Canadian version; Ran on good old fashion leaded fuel and pulled 50+ MPG. I ask which is more environmentally friendly. Remember, ours is dictated by a governmental body charged with protecting the environment.

I checked into this pretty exhaustively. The product (HAPC and its companion PICC) is marketed by a man named Dennis Lee who has some Christian-based cult called "United Community Services of America" (UCSA). They are forbidden by law from marketing their "wares" in about five states where those states' consumer protection attorneys have apparently stopped them. This Hydro Assist Fuel Cell is one of the latest things they are trying to foist upon an unsuspecting public at considerable cost.

It will probably be very difficult to enforce their "guarantee", and it will most certainly cost a fair amount in time and money to pursue any refund once you find out that the technology basically does not do as promised. It would be wonderful, but it is pretty clearly a scam.

If anybody has other information (like that this operation really DOES have a publicly available facility - "somewhere" in New Jersey and a test lab in Detroit - as they claim they do but will not provide any address information), then PLEASE write to me at

Blawenburg@Comcast.net

and tell me differently.

I think it might work- I am trying to get names and numbers of people who use it

I think that Catalytic Converter was listed as a scam on a site that tracks these kind of things. This is probably a scam, but there's many other companies that are selling these hydrogen boosters. I've bought two of them, and am going to test them out when I get my car fixed. I'm 95% sure they work, telling by spending many hours reading, and whatching online video's over the last year. One site garentee's 10% fuel savings, another garentee's 15% increase in mpg. It seems that a conservative estimate for the average savings is 15-20%. And that's savings not increase in MPG, there's tricky math in this, 100% increase in MPG only gives about 50% increase in fuel cost savings, while 50% increase in MPG gives about 33% in fuel savings, 10% increase in MPG gives about 9.1% in fuel savings. Engines are insanely inefficient, only about 25%. There's dozen's of new, and old types of engines, some of which are 40-60% efficient, and much cheaper to build, and repair.

to all of us ! this scam, not only, does not save fuel,but also is proven to use a lot of precious ink, and thinking time

issa

The HAFC (Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell), is NOT A SCAM. I have personally bought two of the kits and have nearly finalized testing on the first, I have photos and am quite willing for anyone to come see and test the kit results, I think they speak for themselves...and I stand behind the HAFC. The PICC is untested by myself but I also think it is a viable technology. Anyone who thinks the auto industry wants to improve fuel efficency, does not know the history OR the inner workings of vehicles as well as they think, from the very first engines, it was proven the fuel vaporization provided much greater power and efficency - so why do todays engines insure there is No Vaporization? Also anyone can prove very simply, that all modern vehicle computers limit the fuel efficency do the car models set range...any fuel savings beyond that range, is automaticly negated by the computer dumping excess gas through the engine or by reducing engine efficency in some other manner. Also, many SUV's have "afterburners" to burn all the gas left unburned by the engine, before it exits the muffler to "stay within emission peramiters" for that vehicle, often equally 50% or more of the gas that we are paying outragously for being completely wasted! If these facts aren't enough to raise some warning bells...or outright cries for justice...I don't know what will be. The EPA is at this moment, telling over 10 U.S. States, that they cannot reduce emissions overall on vehicles within their area...now how can that be justified! Food for thought.

From the website

From their website http://www.preignitioncc.com/ps/index.htm

The Hydro Assist Fuel Cell is a combination of long standing, proven technologies. It works by extracting a hydrogen-oxygen mixture from water by ionizing it with electricity from the battery. This mixture adds extra hydrogen to your fuel, which burns easily and powerfully and enriches your fuel mixture, giving you added mileage and power. The oxygen increases the octane value of your fuel. The system also uses six powerful magnets that ionize the gasoline to produce smaller molecules and help separate the compounds into simple elements so they burn more completely. And, a specially formulated "covalizer" breaks down the covalent bonds of the long chain gas molecules and helps "crack" and vaporize your fuel as well as increase the life of your engine. A perfectly balanced mixture of hydrogen and oxygen enriches the fuel so the computer can lean out the gas. Our special computer controls the car's existing computer and keeps it from rejecting the savings.

Ahh, yes it is a scam (or at the very least lousy research and testing). What it really boils down to is that yes you can add hydrogen to a gas/air mixture to improve efficiency HOWEVER, a few bubbles of hydrogen will not do anything. As for the magnets, well that is total rubbish. This sort of device has been thoroughly dis proven from a scientific point of view as well as from actual testing using engine power and gas mileage measurement equipment in controlled and repeatable conditions. Even the TV show "Mythbusters" did an episode on this and other car performance enhancing technologies.

Sorry, but any benefits you see are likely due to other factors which may appear to be validating this dis proven scam's claims.

First of all, its not a few bubble of hydrogen, the fuel cell produces over a liter per minute of oxygen/hydrogen gas - Thats alot of explosive power going into the air-intake. There is no way that "other factors" is magically producing over 50% better mileage. There is also know reasonable cause to call something a scam which saves me personally $150 in gas every month. Thats my personal knowledge. Perhaps you should examine ac actual kit with an actual scanner, with an actual engine in front of you, rather then dismissing something you don't fully understand. There are multiple principles of magnetics which are almost entirely a mystery to world scientists, I won't profess to believe nor understand exactly how the vaporizer works...but it works, I can certainly work on doing a bypass to get exact mileage with and without the vaporizer, the question is if I do the work, if you'll believe the results or check them out yourself, or will you continue to use biased assumptions without learning anything new with an actual kit in front of you?

Perhaps you should examine ac actual kit with an actual scanner, with an actual engine in front of you, rather then dismissing something you don't fully understand

All I have to go on is my previous experience (including dealing with free energy and power scams) and the information provided on the site. I am not going to make a big thing over this but the science just doesn't add up, especially when they make claims regarding increases in efficiency and scientific results that do not match what is actually scientifically proven and physically possible. I do not need a kit infront of me to prove this.

From the website......

produces 50-70 liters of hydrogen/oxygen mixture per hour

Misleading at best. If you actually measure the amount of hydrogen in the hydrogen/oxygen mixture you will find my original statement to be true. A 12V 15A water electrolyzer will NOT produce a useful stream of Hydrogen necessary to give anywhere near the efficiency claims they are stating (not even by an order of magnitude). Water electrolysis is well understood, what you are actually getting is a standard air stream with a few bubbles of hydrogen. The magnets, well this scam has been around for quite a while and does not work.

As for your 50% increase in mileage, I don't know how you came upon that figure. Although the HAFC fuel cell and vapouriser are nothing more than eye candy snake oil devices, perhaps the optimizer or "covalizer" are doing something. Based on the information and science on the rest of the site however I doubt that.

There are multiple principles of magnetics which are almost entirely a mystery to world scientists

No, the principles are well understood, tried and proven. Magnets will NOT work this way. This scam is rather common and has even been used in scale and contaminant removal from plastic house plumbing (or by itself as a miracle fuel molecule aligner to help the fuel burn better).

The testimonials are an interesting read also.

"It's wonderful to be part of the solution for the environment."
#1 Grand Master Technician, Ontario, Canada

I have never heard of a grand master technician, which kind of makes me think that upon all of this bad science and re-hashing of old free-energy and miracle mileage increasing scams, they made up the testimonials.

Here is a question for you, if this device can actually do what it claims, why is it not being installed into vehicles as standard? Conspiracy perhaps? Then why has this technology not been brought out or the inventor and technology squashed, the US has gone to war over far less, after all we are talking about an invention that if true would save hundreds of billions per year if not more (50-900% increase in fuel efficiencies are mentioned on the site with a 50% increase guaranteed).

Comments?

I will not profess to be an experienced scientist, simply a mind that believes in logic and reason, with faith in what is possible...for which the greatest works of man would not have been possible without. (my regrets for the poor spelling I have at times, it comes from furiously typing on an old keyboard and forgetting to read what I've typed before submitting it.) I can understand you going on your past experience, I have been around the news of free energy (being a poorly used terminology to start with) and new technology for most of my young life. There are certainly dramatic claims from almost any business, depending on the scope of what they are introducing...and sometimes regardless of that - an example is any of the ads on tv...which far outstrip the actual product...(do we really need to see 30 tubes of toothpaste dancing to a pop song, to buy it?) Theres no denying that fact. However any product which does represent additional and lesser known benifits, especially in these times of environmental doubt, I think should have some added attention.

I'm not sure how to tell you that the 50-70 liters per hour of gas is true in my mind, unless there is a subtle flaw to my understanding of your terminology - I have just a few days ago, hooked up the sealed fuel cell...from the vehicles 12v battery, and placed the exit tube into a 2 liter bottle filled with water, in aprox. 65 seconds, the bottle was close to or past the halfway mark...considering there are only 2 elements in water to be broken down, and that the gas was highly combustible, I'm not sure how it can be contested by you, that it can't produce that much gas per hour...or am I missing your point? I certainly don't expect that the addition of Oxy/hydro gas, to improve engine effeciency by more then 15%...its just a part of the overall effect. I also don't see how you can call it a stream of air with a "few bubbles of hydrogen" the makeup of water is also well known = being twice the amount of hydrogen then air...so when you say a stream of air...you mean the 1/3 amount of hydrogen...yes? I have been electrolizing water for quite a few years and testing the power of the gases produced...meaning that I have felt and seen the effects of small amounts of electrolized gas..I wouldn't even dream of attempting to ignite more then a liter at a time, should I expect to retain my hearing...plenty of power to add the 15% to the mileage. I can give you an exact figure of the additional mileage once this weeks tests are finished if that would help your "search for the truth".

I would contest that magnets are fully understood, otherwise there would never have been the sudden announcement of 2007, that it was just discovered that the earths magnetic field was shifting which may be causing the problems in the bee and bird population...or were you not aware of that news? As to its effect on fuel...I wouldn't know...I can simply say that I want to prove it by doing a fuel line bypass to see in my own engine...what difference it makes.

No offence to you, but the only people who deny conspiracy, are the ones who are involved in one, or those who no little or a distorted version of history. In case you have never read the definition...the very fact of our membership on this site, could be considered a conspiracy...so its rather a loose and improperly used term once again, to be thrown around by those without a detailed case to state one way or the other. Depending on what you call a good source...the internet not being overly trustworthy in my mind, I could easily recemend a number of good books which might shed some light on the reasons behind a determined and perfectly self-aware effort to hold back the advancement of technology to the public...simple facts and logic, no hazy or hanging by a cloud theories are necessary to prove that. Should you be willing to learn something which you didn't know...if not...theres no reason to even discuss. Discussion means to each be open, I am willing to prove every aspect of the 2 kits which are right here in my workplace...working or not.

I certainly agree that the US has gone to war over far less...is trillions of dollars from the industries of oil, water, electricity and manufacturing a good enough reason to keep a few simple methods of preserving fuel and energy consumption out of the hands of the public? I think it might be...the first book I would suggest btw, its "The Economic Hitman".

If wasn't obvious, I decided to register and not just be a "guest". Also I'm sorry, I did not give the entire name of the book correctly, it is "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" By John Perkins

Hello again, sorry for the delay...sometimes I can't get to everything I have for a day or more and my emails pile up far to quickly. Thank you, I do feel strongly about not raving about unsubstantiated things ALL of the time, its nice to just go over factual events whenever possible, even if my experience and science background is limited. No onto the tesla, big oil and alien theories...just kidding.

I'm glad to hear that your in R&D somewhat and that you have heard of many of the ideas put forward by so many people, I'm sure you've heard of Stanley Meyers and such? I happen to know a number of the people who knew Stanley personally, and witnessed first-hand his inventions, they were convinced...I can say nothing beyond my interest, since I did not know the man nor see his machines first-hand. I do however have some experience with browns gas, or R-Gas or water gas...whatever the name, and is frankly amazing stuff compared to conventional gases, have you seen a water gas welder in action? I am admitedly impress by the results...and I hope to own a unit shortly, one of the manufacters and inventers of one type of unit, actual lives in my area. I concur completely with having an open mind and exploring the possiblities with even the most unlikely suggestions...and that without looking we can never find a new horizon.

Sadly there are alot of people willing to pray on even the smallest hopes, in order to gain a bit of money, if all these people put their energy towards actually helping others and finding some new ideas...we could progress much quicker I don't doubt.

I will not admit to having alot of resources, nor time...but I will attempt to listen and take suggestions and advice whenever and however much I can. I appreciate your continued patience with all the people you encounter.

The stainless steel has always been a poor-mans way of creating less currosion and to save money, while using materials at hand...I have no doubt as to the benifits of better coatings and metals. I am not entirely convinced about the load exceeding the fuel benifits, but I won't debate the point until i have further research of my own.

Now, how would atmospheric air be getting into a closed cell? I don't understand that for starters...obviously I can't measure what is "exactly" reaching the engine, since the gas is enjected into the air intake manifold and mixed with outside air, and there aren't any hydrogen sensors in the engine to my knowledge...lol. The amount I measured however, is before the manifold and taken directly out of the closed cell, which is sealed with water and caustic inside, with only a 1/4" outlet running into a hose. The 900% encrease mentioned has nothing to do with the HAFC kit, or at least not by itself, that number is ONLY in reference to the 2-part modification of the PICC, which although sounds wonderful and I should have one within the year...is entirely untested by myself and hence I can have no comment - besides the fact that the HAFC is and has only ever garenteed a total encrease of 50% better mileage or your money is refunded.

I also understand about the big and little bangs (sounds like childs speech...lol) I'm not sure if you have ever calculated the actual difference in power released from an enclosed hydrogen/oxygen explosion vs. an enclosed gasoline explosion - there is where the power dispute hinges. The makers of the kit, claim that it is signifigant enough to help improve mileage, do to the water-gas's unique ablity to heat up to the sublimation point of the material that it is burning (with).

I have no concrete evidence to do with the magnet...so no comment.

I am only mentioning very very rough figures, as I have not completed the detailed mileage tests I am hoping to, (please keep this in mind). I did not mean to imply or state that I was using $1000 in gas each month! (your statement "primarily because I am interested in your apparent 15%? $150 savings in gas each month increase in gas milage).....") I simply said that I expect the water-gas to help with aprox. 15% of the overal improvements. Please keep in mind the computer input device is a strong part of the improved mileage, I don't know how much, but I suspect it may help with aprox. 20% of the improvement (heard from multiple other sources, not confirmed myself)

1) The Fuel cell (12v, 15amp electrolizer, is powered from the battery, it passes through a relay first) Not the alternator, unless my grasp of the wiring I just did is completely flawed.

2) There have been NO other alterations to the vehicle, not even an oil change has been done since we first tested the mileage to now when we are almost finished the installation.

3) There is nothing added to the fuel cell except the caustic, no extra battery, there is a small amount of fuel covalizer which is added every gas-tank, yes.

4) There are no unheard of maintenance costs that I know of, in fact oil changes are from then on almost unneeded the company claims, the only thing I've heard, is since oxygen sensors may have already failed - we have to make sure they are replaced if not working and that a new fuel filter will likely be needed (only once), after the system has run for a while, because of how it cleans out the vehicle. (also not confirmed)

5) We are trying to test as accuratly as we can, we did whats called an orange test before beginning the installation and we will perform another mileage test exactly the same way when we are finished. BTW, are you a member of facebook? There is a private newsgroup available there if you are a member.

Thanks

I will try and keep this brief as the length of these emails is getting a bit long (I am not sure what would happen if I wrote an email that was longer than what was allotted for a CR4 thread post page).

Brown's gas and welding - yes seems to be a good use for it. Sadly many in the free energy community think that it is borderline magic and has been used in many scams and bad science experiments (especially with power generation).

I happen to know a number of the people who knew Stanley personally, and witnessed first-hand his inventions, they were convinced

You have to give them some credit, many do tend to put on a great and convincing show (even if the results cannot be repeated by users or scientific groups and test labs).

Sadly there are alot of people willing to pray on even the smallest hopes, in order to gain a bit of money, if all these people put their energy towards actually helping others and finding some new ideas...we could progress much quicker I don't doubt.

Damn human nature, but like I have to repeatedly tell people, they are only a loud minority, and most people are smart enough to understand that if it looks too good it probably is. Thats how these scams work (like the internet ones). Spam enough people and you will eventually get a few nibbles.

Regarding stainless steel as an electrode, it is one of the worst materials (but it is available to backyard inventors). Plenty of research and info on the web, the trick is to look at the credible ones (not the free energy ones by people with a limited understanding of science and principles). A case of build you design on a shaky foundation of sand it is doomed to fail.

With regard to your perceived/expected savings I think you will find that your mileage will go down (primarily because the engine needs to work harder to turn the alternator to power the electrolyser). The magnets won't do any good, but neither should they reduce your mileage. I don't know about the fuel covalizer or the computer input device (I just have this feeling that the computer interface device is a black box with wires coming out of it that looks nice but does nothing, but this is based on the vibe I got from the website and my previous experience with scam electronic devices that are difficult for the user to prove if they are in fact doing anything).

No I am not a member of facebook. I like CR4 and I am here to stay.

Final comments - Well you already have one or two of these kits. If you are able to, why don't you post a picture of the inside of the car computer interface device electronics along with the manual showing how it is hooked into the car electrics (which allow it to do something to your millage). We may be able to tell you what is is doing (or not doing), that is if it is easy to see inside. As for testing, why not continue. I find that the best way to learn is to get involved as well as look at the science behind the technology.

Beware the free energy sites, it is easy to get suckered in by the flashy graphics. Below is a link to a reputable source regarding (among other things) electrolysis. Over the years I have found him to be a great reliable and knowledgeable source and one I keep coming back to. He explains things rather well and does a lot of his own testing and verification to.

http://www.tinaja.com/h2gas01.asp

*nods* yes they were getting a tad long...

I will certainly try to take that under consideration (about the power to the fuel cell). I completely understand if you are sticking with here, I just thought I'd make mention of facebook fyi. I will be working on a diagram of the computer optimizer for sure. And otherwise yes I will continue to test and do my best to find out that facts...which I will happily pass on to the forum here :-) And thank you for the several links :-) Reading them now.

I also understand about the big and little bangs (sounds like childs speech...lol) I'm not sure if you have ever calculated the actual difference in power released from an enclosed hydrogen/oxygen explosion vs. an enclosed gasoline explosion - there is where the power dispute hinges. The makers of the kit, claim that it is signifigant enough to help improve mileage, do to the water-gas's unique ablity to heat up to the sublimation point of the material that it is burning (with).

Besides the difference in BTUs you need to look at flame propagation. Hydrogen gas burns fast. Detonation could be a problem if not accounted for. Hydrogen gas is not dense. A liter at atmospheric pressure has very little mass. It burns hot I believe a 4,000^o F flame.

As stated NO_x from the higher pressures and heat will need to be catalyzed. Water injection may add to the power but at the detriment of your lubrication (blow by).

Personally I think the problem is the piston engine. It is a positive displacement pump that has 1/8th of a semi efficient power conversion. After 100 years 25-35% is not very good (for the users, not the fuelers).

Follow the money and I would guess that much of the big money has stocks in the Major news orgs, Auto manufactures, and oil companies. Conspiracy? no just business. A perverse incentive? I think so.

Just food for thought

Brad

Another two interesting articles on alternative energy (including electrolysis and Browns gas) that can explain things (in a fair bit of technical depth in some areas) better than I can.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse120.pdf

how does combustion affect the Fuel filter???

PROOF THAT THIS IS 100% SCAM
BUYERS BEWARE!

1st: If you say the auto manufacturers WOULD NOT use this concept if it was a miracle then you are wrong! The major car manufacturers are currently designing full blown hydrogen cars, they would gobble this so called miracle HYDRO ASSIST up if it were real. It is NOT TOO hard to redesign the cars ECU (Electronic Control Unit) for the hydro assists if it would allow the auto manufacturer to sell 50,000 MORE AUTOS per year. Think about it.....SCAM!

2nd: Yes cars can run on hydrogen and yes hydrogen is combustible but NO you WILL NOT get 50%-100% increased fuel economy from this little hydrogen gimmick. There would have to be a way to store the hydrogen in a compressed tank in order for any real fuel economy gains to be noticed. Also the car would obviously demand more hydrogen at different engine loads and rpm settings but the output of the hydrogen is constant. SCAM!

3rd: Now for the little computer that these guys says is what makes the MIRACLE HYDRO ASSIST work. WELL that little computer that comes with the $1000 Hyro Trash Kit is nothing more than an oxygen sensor override. Your cars oxygen sensor simply fine tunes the fuel/air mixture by sending a voltage signal to your cars computer depending on how much oxygen is in your exhaust stream. The oxygen sensor is located in your cars exhaust and some cars have multiple oxygen sensors such as in front and behind the catalytic converter. The little computer that comes with the Hydro Trash Kit simply reads the input from the oxygen sensor and overrides the signal to your cars computer to make your cars computer think the car is running too rich (Too much fuel versus air.) and in turn your car leans the mixture out. Anyway the hydrogen from the Hydro Trash kit is supposed to make up for the lean condition and PRESTO you save gas! The TRUTH is that even with your car's computer forced at a lean condition the amount of fuel saved is barely even noticeable. Also at high power conditions and rpms the oxygen sensor really plays not much of any role in your fuel/air mixture. You see the oxygen sensor is nothing more than a FINE TUNING of your cars fuel/air mixture. SCAM!

4th: Your car gets the best fuel economy and power output and best emmissions when the fuel/air ratio is perfectly balanced which is at 14.7 / 1 WHICH MEANS 14.7 PARTS FUEL to ONE PART OXYGEN. AT 14.7 to 1 with a properly running car and fresh gas your engine should completely burn all the fuel per combustion cycle or at least most of it. A properly running automobile produces almost NO EMMISSIONS, THAT IS THE BEST FUEL ECONOMY you can get for your buck, with the exception of removing dead weight from your vehicle, or removing cylinders and some other methods which I will not get into.

5th: This Hydro Trash kit is nothing more than all the past MIRACLE FUEL SAVER gimmicks combined into ONE HUGE MIRACLE FUEL SAVER GIMMICK! FYI: I could build that little cheap computer in about 3 hours with parts from RADIO SHACK.

Q & A:

1) Does This HYDRO TRASH KIT produce hydrogen?

Answer: Yes it does but it is a constant flow and never adjustable and it is injected not near the intake valve where it should be (Like The Fuel Injector) but in the fresh air box to further discount its advantage.

2) Does the HYDRO TRASH KIT save me 50%-100% fuel economy?

Answer: You will be lucky if you see 5%-10% savings and with the added weight from the kit and the cost of the acetone and "caustic" fluids you could very well lose money per mile.

NOTE: As a master technician and reasonably intelligent in electronics as well as an Electical Engineer please don't get caught up in the gimmick as it is very well believably the way it is presented. I had a friend get scammed with this kit and this is why I am writing this. I had no idea he bought this until he asked for my help with installation. I simply kept my mouth shut and proceeded to help him install the kit. I told him not to bolt anything down yet as he will be removing this shortly. He saw absolutely NO fuel savings and it is going on 2 months now of driving. I feel bad that he got nailed!

Sincerely,

Kevin Crowley

You may be able to help as no one has been able to answer this question for me. On the HAFC website one of the testimonials is from a #1 Grand Master Technician, Ontario, Canada

I have never heard of such a qualification, ever? Can you verify that this qualification actually exists and is not just a fake testimonial (is it some Canadian form of distance learning qualification?).

Hi - I live in Ontario , Canada and know a lot of mechanics.

There is no such qualification.

D

I thought as much. I think I will call this one another nail (i.e.- obviously fake testimonial that the company should have realised given that they should know their own industry) in the coffin of this scam. Wait, can you still stick nails in the coffin when we have already buried this one years ago.

Now if you will all excuse me I have to pickup my new degree of "Wellness" (yes someone was actually selling obviously fake degrees here in NZ).

FINALLY! The first guy that knows what he's talking about. After reading too much of this crap I see one guy that seems to know what he's talking about. Good show Mr. Guest at post #60. Just goes to prove the IQ bell curve. The average person isn't very smart. Only an idiot would buy into this snake oil BS.

Hello, I just ordered the Hitman book, I believe we should all have an open mind until we get the facts to prove or disprove the merits of these products. I've ordered a HAFC kit, I'll take the chance to see if it's what its cracked up to be. When I have the unit installed I'll let everyone know the results. If it works I will get involved with sales and distribution. I attended the WIREC show and didn't see Bush or an Indian collapse, I doubt it happened. I do know the booth next to Dutchmans was the EPA. Only one young guy from that booth ventured over to their booth. Dutchmans booth was more crowded with people than any other booth, at least when I was present. I don't know if their product works but I do believe Big Brother doesn't support technology that would benefit the little guy at the big guys expense. Just watch "Who killed the electic car?" Just my spin on things. I hope for all our sake this product works, the average working guy needs a break. Billy

Shop Foreman, Grand Master Technician are titles highly trained and expirenced mechanic take . Your ignorance overwelms me . You are the speaker of lies and mis truths ! You day will come this month ! Pay Attention to the news out of Washingtom 4-6 March about PICC @ WIREC 2008 Show. We will overcome <>< www.Rockin69.com

Well, now that we have officially your cult like company and attitudes..... I have been on this for Christians only website and let me say wow. I have heard words like this before, from some crazy woman claiming to be a Christian while protesting at and during fallen soldiers funerals.. Not that my beliefs matter to anyone else or their beliefs matter to me, but I am Christian and what you people are doing disgusts me. My friend got screwed by you people cause you preyed on her beliefs. You took what strength and courage she had in God and twisted into some perverted scam. I don't know what else to say. I hope against hope that you guys are for real for the sake of all the poor folks you sell this stuff to. To all. I apologize for getting so far off subject.

Dan

Here is an interesting bit of information on the magnetic fuel catalysts. This product http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/ was actually tested on the Horsepower show on Spike and using before and after on their dyno, it showed Horsepower gains. I think I remember somewhere between 5 and 8HP. Now, you do have to go the rest of the way and take a leap of faith. I'm sure that the Fitch people gave them the product to try out and perhaps they even paid for them to do the test, dunno, but I doubt that they would risk the show without verification. Just something to think about.

Anyway, I'll probably stay quiet until my HAFC arrives. All these negative vibes! Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that all the naysayers are trying to protect my hard earned money, but I'm a big boy now. What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger and wiser.

Ditto

Can you please tell me what Mythbusters Episode it was on? I don't see any with "engine performance" in the title.

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/episode/episode.html

I don't remember which one. I think it was part of an episode (rather than the main feature listed in the title), and one of the earlier episodes.

Very poorly done - I havae built and used cells and they did not do a GOOD test.

rcb

I have been with Dennis for 15 years and can vouch for his Character and Intent:
Why don't we examine both sides of the story before passing JUDGMENT either way?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Con

I have witnessed the person who has the site below do his best to discredit Dennis the WHOLE TIME (15).

The ex convict behind this whole thing is Dennis Lee. I have information (that he has sued me to try to get down) at

The Person discrediting Dennis can be located at"
http://www.phact.org/e/dennis.html

His site explains Lee's 30 years of scams including 20 promising free electricity and the last 5 promising super high mileage

Comment: If you want to see how smoothly a person can spin a
story which seems true just listen to what Dennis has to say.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro

Dennis Lee Story in his own words can be found in a book called the Alternative
and in this own words at: http://soundwaves2000.com/jgs/

Dennis explains the whole story which includes the "gentleman" above's
efforts to destroy Dennis.

One obvious point... What does the past have to do with the present
assuming Dennis Lee's HAFC works NOW?

Well, I am witnessing it working including the direct testimonials of two
people who went through the training for certification and passed.
They reported success with their installation in the class. One
has posted his comment (above) on this system.

I am willing to talk to anyone on the phone if they are truly serious about
learning the truth and advancing this technology.

I believe the people who research the TRUTH will come back
and inform all of you that the man above may have trouble
getting into heaven... to put it lightly.

Then his PR and Marketing suck (tech term) Being a convict at present I ignored that part. If it works fine, but descriptions that are highly improbable without hard verifiable data are negative points of marketing.

Better to say it's a proprietary design than make claims that sound of BS. He has created his own bad press.

What he needs now is some one beyond reproach to endorse him. e.g. Bill Gates foundation. (just an example)

The best product in the world poorly marketed (excluding fads) do poorly.

Personally I'd buy cars and refit them, then sell the cars value added with contractual clauses for both parties. If it works word of mouth, not rhetoric, would snow ball into an empire.

Brad

Tell us all, exactly how do you test to see if there is an increase in millage? Thanks.

--G

The tests are done very carefully...the "orange test" is done by filling the tank at a gas station carefully until the pump shuts off, then driving along a straight and steady stretch of freeway, at around 80kmh, for 50 miles, then turning around and driving the same distance straight back to the same gas station at the same speed = 100kmh, then to refill at the same pump and calculating the millage. This is done for every concrete checking of millage improvement, although shorter runs are made during the initial testing so as to not use so much fuel of course. MPG can be easily calculated by - km / liters x 2.82 = MPG

Who are you and where are you?... My name is Fred Lundgren. Google me if you like. Then, please call me at 281 599 9800. I would like to promote these products on my radio stations if I am convinced they are for real!

Ok guest i will take you up on your offer call me and i will fly out to where ever you are and see, i am in charge of a fleet of 16 trucks it will save me thousands of dollars a month on fuel.

Dear "Guest," Why is it that you have no name? You offer to have someone come and look at your stuff, but where are you? You might as well call yourself "anonymous." Come through with a name, address, phone number, email address, and then what you say might, just MIGHT, be taken seriously. --Jerry McMurry (my real name my momma gave me lo these 74 years ago!)

I believe "Guest" became "Brante".

I would like to contact anyone who has used and tested a HAFC and is not in the business of selling or promoting it. I'm interested in testing one myself. Thanks, Lance

Can you tell me how long it takes to install? Did you do it yourself? How much of the catalyst did you buy, and did they deliver it on time? What were your results in milage? I am thinking about it, but your blog is the first I have seen where someone actually tried it.

Thanks,

Mark Schmidt

I would urge you to be cautious and read the rest as guest turned into brante and has not been back with the promised results for quite some time. I believe maybe there was just a lot of wishful thinking there. Good luck and welcome.

Dan

if this would be not a scam then it would cost not 1000$ but aboout 50.000-100.000$ beacose fuel is going to end soon and the prize is crowing any second by cent and cent and so it grow and grow.

COME ON GUYS...I WANT TO KNOW, WHO OWN ANY OF THESE KITS AND IF THEY WORK.. THATS ALL... ONLY PEOPLE WHO OWN ONE OF THESE KITS SHOULD SAY IF THEY WORK OR NOT..

IT WILL BE GOOD IF SOMEONE POST A VIDEO WHEN THE KIT IS BEING INSTALLED AND TESTED... WITH A REGULAR CAMERA... THAT WILL BE GOOD EVIDENCE FOR THOSE WHO DONT HAVE A KIT..

THANKS

BUY YOUR OWN KIT.

You can then tell us if it works.

If there was some logic to the claim I might consider it but as a gearhead nerd I can't quite see any logic to the claims. I can think of several ways to improve efficiency. And snake oil tricks are not it. I don't say the product don't work. I say the BS is so deep I'm not wasting my time to find out.

Brad

Please refer to my and Brante's posts #9-21. He actually has a kit or two.

Amazing. I guy who actually uses logic. That seems to be missing in most of these entries. That's all I want to know too. I emailed the company asking for local mechanics and recommendations from local people who actually have this installed...and surprise, surprise, I never heard from them. I've been burned several times in my 74 years and I finally know a scam when I hear it. Every time I've been screwed, it was always because I was greedy and wanted to believe the exaggerated claims that were made. No mas...bastante!

The ex convict behind this whole thing is Dennis Lee. I have information (that he has sued me to try to get down) at

www.phact.org/e/dennis.html

It explains Lee's 30 years of scams including 20 promising free electricity and the last 5 promising super high mileage. I have long offered to him and his followers to validate any of these claims - But Lee's only reaction to me is more legal attacks in federal court. I have offered him $50,000 for proof of his free energy.

I have explained to many of his followers that there is no need to pay 100's of thousands for publicity like their full page ads in Newsweek, they only need to show a simple 100mpg demo to a few media people - even small town newspaper journalists.

If this is true, we should all get behind it to help save the earth, but as far as I can tell is it is just one of many many high mileage scams out there.

save your money till you see credible independent validation

Eric Krieg

Thanks Eric,

That was a better read than the article.

I did like the article. One cannot discern the dynamics of a situation without some knowledge and experience of the issue.

Brad

here's another way to look at it, a slower burn will cause more heat to be lost to the cylinder walls wouldn't it? less energy lost as heat means more useful work. Changing anything in the fuel should either increase or decrease MPG, because it changes the dynamic's of the prosses.

Hello all. I came across the article in Pop Sci somewhere between a miracle pheromone that transforms weird Al Yankovic into James Bond and a pill which reverses aging. For the life of me I can't understand why such a highly reputable publication insists on placing junk ads in their magazine. I'm not here to debate the science, mostly because it sounds like total BS. I just want to see a vehicle with this installed, not a video or a report, but a hands on vehicle. So, are any of you die hard advocates in MN?

Dutchman Enterprises,LLC has taken booth 411 at the Washington International Renewable Energy Conference 2008(WIREC2008) trade show in Washington DC on March 4-6, 2008 to show their system. If anyone goes to this conference or knows someone who can, it would be interesting to get a report on their presentation. This might shed some more light on these claims that the make about the mileage improvements that they claim.

I am in CA and a friend of mine just suckered herself into buying an excursion and putting the kit on it as well as her mini van. There is no talking sense into her... I am not a scientist or anything like that. I am an avionics technician in the U.S. Navy. However, her talk of this spurred me into researching this. Better mileage, who doesnt want it. It sounds really good reading it at first but she says she is going to get 100+ mpg in her new V10 excursion. I dont think that is even possible.... No matter what. Is it? Anyway, This HAFC talks about adding acetone, xylene and a mystery ingredient... I searched adding acetone to gas and found some interesting stuff at,

http://www.lubedev.com/smartgas/ along with http://brightgreen.us/ about adding these chemicals and if it is true what this man says than it might make up for what ever little gain these people are seeing. He is in MN and I called him today to ask about this HAFC and the soon to be PICC. He said that as far as he was concerned it was all garbage. I would be interested to hear from any chemist types about how gasoline and these chemicals would bond and work together if at all. Thank you all.

Dan H.

apparently it was Mythbusters Episode 53. There's much dicussion about this on the mythbusters forums, though not very intellegent.

Here's a dicription of Episode 53

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/05/exploding_trousers_great_gas_conspiracy.html

<slaps own head> Of course, the exploding trousers myth was one of ours. Those zany farmers.

One of the key points of the episode was that the EPA had (at that point in time) tested 104 gas millage increasing devices and only 7 showed improvement in fuel efficiency (but none exceeded a 6% increase).

http://www.gas-mileage-enhancers.com/gas_mileage_enhancers-gas_saving

I don't have anything current but Hydro Assist Fuel Cell and PICC may have already been scientifically tested.

HAHAHA... I just watched the mythbusters. That thing they built didn't even make a fraction of the bubbles other ones did in video's I've seen. And they didn't test it as a fuel helper, they tried to the run the car on that alone.

I saw that plane taking off on a tredmill one too. Don't they know that LIFT is what "lifts" up the plan? In their toy plan test the propeller would have been blowing lot's of air over the wings, it had time to get the air moving, that's why it took off. The real size plane was actually moving past the pylons pritty fast, and it was also powering the air over the wings with it's propeller some. Try tieing a plane to a rope and then releasing it, and see if it takes off, it probably won't but will get somewhat close due to the propeller having time to get the air moving faster, and the air moving fast at the propeller will cause the air at a larger radius to it to start moving faster, after some time.

It's funny how he said it's because planes arn't powered by pushing off the gound, but air instead, well here's an easy way to prove that wrong, take a glider and pull it behind a truck, and see how it takes off, from pushing off the ground, by the truck wheels...

keep tweeting the song of the hawk, birdies.

That thing they built didn't even make a fraction of the bubbles other ones did in video's I've seen

Aha, but how many of those videos were real. Seriously, you really don't get vast quantities of H out of a simple electrolyzer.

And they didn't test it as a fuel helper, they tried to the run the car on that alone

That's strange, are you sure? From memory, I was sure they did that first BEFORE going to the extreme of using a compressed stream of Hydrogen. After all, there is no point on using an electrolyzer to power a car on H alone, as, well that's just plain stupid. Perhaps common sense is interfering with my memory. Anyway the EPA (among others) have tested many of these Electrolyzer Hydrogen injection assist devices.

I saw that plane taking off on a tredmill one too

Gah, an episode I have missed. Given that most of the time they get it spot on I cut them a bit of slack, especially since they revisit the myths if they are informed they have made a mistake (or two). Given that this is one of the few engineering programs on TV fighting for attention against such drivel as "Worlds <blankest> <blank>" I think they do a great job in educating and inspiring the public in the fields of engineering and science.

It's funny how he said it's because planes arn't powered by pushing off the gound, but air instead

Hey, a plane cannot create its own lift when the plane is just sitting there stationary on the ground (otherwise planes would need to be fitted with anchors).

I have the episode on my computer, I just rechecked it, and they definintly did diconnect the fuel supply and only had the hydro assist thing connected. The engine started for just a sec until the fuel that was left in the engine was burned, they tried to start it again it didn't, and they gave up, this is when they played with the compressed hydrogen.

Now that I see it again it did make more bubbles then I thought. It's hard to see because they don't really focus on it.(this is when it was on the car, it seemed to be making more bubbles then it did in the "close-up" in the lab) But even so it had a lot of air space in the container, and if the contianer, and the hose isn't even full of HHO then ofcourse the car wouldn't start, not until ALL that air is replaced by HHO produced at the unit. It's an absolutly bad test, but that doesn't even matter because they didn't try it with gas.

I don't mean any disrespect for the mythbusters, their show probably wouldn't be easy enough for the people who watch it if they went into so much complications, and it would also take up too much of their time. I think their show is great, and don't expect them to be perfect, I'm just sayin this test is not credible.

Yea I thought so. There are many devices around and many are the common add H to the gas (much harder to see what's happening and if it is actually doing anything). Have another look and see if the device they were testing was specifically designed to REPLACE the gas entirely (one of the terrible "Power your car entirely off water and stick it to the petroleum industry" devices). That may have been why they performed the test in such a flawed way (ie- That was how the device was DESIGNED to be used).

Have another look as it may simply be a case of you mistaking one miracle millage device for another.

Hello everyone again, just thought I'd make a post to let everyone know I hadn't fallen off the face of the earth...nor been shot - yet...lol.

Work continues on the HAFC here, we have had some trouble getting the sensors properly hooked up, and that is mostly due to the fact that we are not certified mechanics, and we have been proceeding carefully, further detail on installing, as well as, an excellent domestic vehicle scan tool is in the mail for us. We expect the tuning of the engine to commence fairly shortly...sorry for the delay in this. We are finding this first installation to be fairly intensive.

Also to mention something on the water gas insertion - the water gas is not being used as a fuel! It is only to enhance the ability of the gasoline to burn, increasing the heat and making for a cleaner and more effecient burn. Water gas is not currently a viable fuel, EVEN IF enough gas could be produced per minute, which is obviously not a technology which is yet known by our average science. I have little doubt that like most problems which have been surpassed by the last 150 years of massive scientific breakthroughs, that at some point it will be common knowledge how to effectivly break apart Oxygen and Hydrogen.

I am a Dealer for the HAFC / PICC. I would like to talk to you. I will get in touch. I would like to help. We have a can do mechanic!

why doesnt someone start u tubeing the hafc if it really works ?Ive been researching picc and hafc for 6 months now and see no other personal individuals raving about how well there hafc works.Call me a skeptic,or call me cautious,whatever.Im definitely not gonna drop a "G"on a product unless i see other people besides "hafc" marketing sales

Build your own for $50 in parts / Plans are free

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

1.7 Lpm / 100 Lph

rcb

I also think that this product is too good to be true, However, the developer of the HAFC system did have a 6 space size booth (booth 411) at Wirec 2008, a Washington D.C. alternate energy trade show March 3-7 2008. There were at this show booths occupied by the USDA, The Volvo Group, General Electric, General Motors & British Petroleum just to name a few exhibitors. The company Dutchman Enterprises LLC was at the show to demonstrate the HAFC device. It would be great to know the results of the test & the publicity and interest generated. Due to the quality of the exhibitors at the trade show it now is hard for me to believe that the product is a scam. Even so, I would not invest any money at this time to purchase a system for my vehicle unless I could test a vehicle with the system installed myself. I would have to pour the gasoline that I personally supplied and then drive the vehicle myself until the vehicle ran out of fuel. If I received the kind of fuel mileage that they claimed I would then write them a check. I already have a quote from a Michael Lemmon, P.O. Box 2085, Renton, WA 98056 for a HAFC kit for my 2000 Nissan Maxima of $1065.00 plus $25. S/H. If anyone would like to check this out to verify my information that I supplied I would be interested in reading their results on this forum.

I have been certified by dutchman enterprizes as an installer and trainer. i have installed several kits, two where done under supervision on dutchmans trainer/ designers. the kit works. note you have to install the entire kit to get the 50% increase. the fuel cell generates water gas hho. the fuel heat exchanger(vaporizer) is used to heat thefuel, magnets work to add electrons and align the fuel molecules, theculvolizer helps the heat exchanger break down the fuel from large strands of hydrogen/carbon molecules into smaller strands, the hho gas is used to fill in themissing hydrogen from the breaking down of the fuel strands. hho is not used as "fuel". think of it like burning wood, small pieces burn fast, hot and complete, large logs burn cooler, slower and incomplete. so cracking fuel into smaller molecules gets more of the btu's out of thefuel before it's exhausted out of the cylnders. the computer is awhite box the filters the sensor readings before they get to the vehicles computer. this helps lean out theamount of fuel injected into each cylinder. the kit has to be tuned for each engine. this is not a simple task that jst anybody can do. that is why dutchman has a training facility and a hotline to help assist tuners. the science is sound, the fraud is from closed minded people and he who has the gold making all the rules.