first, the picc is bs. at the least the company is made up of morons. look at the site i gave above or check super hydro II. on the net. that is the system i am working with now. the tech. is solid. picc is not....

As for the disorganization of the HAFC company there are over 2000 independent dealers for the product. Each dealer may have countless sales associates affiliated with their dealship and runs their business as they see fit. Some dealers will use PO Boxes while others will not. Some dealers will accept credit card and other won't. With an organization this large and a product so new to the market it is no wonder that there is a messy sales model.

Kits are manufactured through Dutchman Enterprises. Kits are shipping directly from the warehouses and not from the dealers themselves. Read the Press Release and Distribution PDF found here on google.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Dutchman+Enterprises+has+developed%22

WIREC 2008 just ended. Booth 411 was where it was at.

http://www.americanrenewables.org/tradeshow_exhibition.cfm

--------------------------------------------

Dutchman Enterprises, LLC About Our Company The Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell and the Pre-Ignition Catalytic converter save fuel and reduce pollution in all personal vehicles. The HAFC uses water gas, ionization, pre-heat,and a covalizer to fully vaporize and enrich the fuel. 50% or more increase in mpg is guaranteed(usually gets double mileage.) We plan to introduce the PICC at this show. It can cause all manufactured SUVs to get over 100 mpg with NO harmful pollution! URL: http://www.picctv.com/ts Product Categories: BioFuels Biomass Power Other Renewable Energy Development, equipment and technology Contact Information A. David Dutchman Enterprises, LLC 3002 State Route 23 Newfoundland, NJ 07435 United States Phone Number 973-545-2500 Fax Number 973-208-7699 --------------------------------------------

I just bought the March 2008 issues of Popular Mechanics (page 41) and D-Sport (page 97) magazines as well as the April 2008 (go figure on that one) issue of Import Tuner (page 90) all of which have the HAFC full page ad targeting mechanics. I also have the Jan. 14, 2008 issue of news week (page 49), the one with Obama on the cover. The full page ads that are in all these magazines are part of a nation wide ad campaign. Leads that come in as a result of the campaign are sent to the independent dealers and distributed to the sales associates.

Someone was asking about seeing some diagrams/tech details/etc on the kit.
Here you go. http://www.installersupport.info

Here is a link about the blue 2006 mazda getting 121MPG that is on the picctv/preignitioncc website.
http://www.tesla-in-oz.com/hydromaz.html

Oh, and about the Grand Master Technician questoin, this may be old now.
Did you ever try to google that title?
http://www.google.com/search?q="Grand+Master+Technician"&hl=en&start=10&sa=N
A couple minutes of looking and you can find this title coming out the woodwork in Canada.

Your post supports my point. You, who are logged in as a guest, have to defend a company who at the very best, only makes the stuff and has a disjointed distribution network. I have contacted about 8 of these suppliers. Not one has called me back, not one has given a email back about local installers or locally installed cars for me to see. Is that then my job to google some more dealers and pester them? Or do I just move on to the next company. The website is poorly done and no support. On line chat? No. Phone number with someone human to answer phones? NO. If you want to defend the company, go ahead. But how about some pointers as to how to actually run a business. Have a press conference. Get on Fox news or cnn. Hell, do a radio talk show.... I mean renting a booth at a trade show is minor and easy. Anyone could do it...

People,

this person promoting and the address for Dutchman is the same fo r ex convict Dennis Lee who has been promising free electricity for 20 years and super high mileage for 6. He and followers have been ignoring my and others obvious request to just allow public demonstrations to 3rd party people that would be documented. I have information on the whole program at

www.phact.org/hafc.htm

Please give links to that url as Lee's 40 or so domain names bury it. I would be happy to add results from a simple 1 hour mileage test at the top of the page. Wouldn't such free publicity go farther than their multi million dollar add campaign? Why not just make unbiased truth be widely available? - but no, they say, "give us money to make your own proof" = yeah right

Thank you again for telling us all what booth Dutchman Enterprises LLC, was in. That has been established though. My question is this. We all know that Dutchman rented a booth. I can find thousands of links saying they WILL be there. I want to know what happened when they were their. With such a technological breakthrough like the HAFC and PICC generating upwards of 600% better mileage it would be a big hit. Ok fine, maybe the oil companies and car companies have all of the 300 news channels on my satellite tv and all however many thousands of news websites there are in the grips of a power hungry money driven greed fest. Lets go with that....

Why is their not one person reporting on any blog or forum or blah blah.org or anything. According to a friend, her friend did not believe these incredible statements about her Excursion getting over 100 mpg. NOTE She still has not received the HAFC in the mail. So he hopped on a plane headed for WIREC. He came back with some incredible stories like the Prime Minister fainted after watching a man breathing behind the exhaust of a modified motorcycle for 15 minutes. This was possible because with the HAFC and PICC there are NO emissions. According to the source, no emissions is the same reason the President of the United States was able to drive Dutchman's modified car right therein the middle of the building. If I had witnessed this I would go to no end to help get the word out. The President drove the most efficient lightly modified car in the world and the Prime Minister of India fainted after seeing this miracle, yet none of this made it to the news...

Look, I am not saying that this product is garbage any more. I have to be honest when I say I simply don't know. I wont buy one because I can and am building one for myself to try and I suspect when I am all finished it will have cost me about 200 bucks. And if it doesn't work than I will shit can it and not have to jump through hoops just to get argued out of my 1750 dollar refund for the HAFC, if it doesn't work.

http://www.installersupport.info/InstallInstructDFCRev.pdf PG. 4

Is there any some what unbiased engineers or anyone not directly or indirectly involved with Dutchman that actually went to WIREC and saw any of the 411 booth?

Thanks,

Dan

Thanks for the links. Did not help me much so far. Still looking.

HAFC Installation Instructions

A few quote from: http://www.installersupport.info/InstallInstructDFCRev.pdf

PG 4 Paragraph 4

The kit buyer must test the vehicle for fuel economy according to the test procedures outlined in this installation manual. The same test must be done both before and after the HAFC modification and proper tuning has been performed. The test results of the vehicle before modification must be recorded on the Mileage Test Calculation Form on page 6 and the gas receipt to prove it must be saved until after the vehicle is modified. The modification MUST be installed in a temporary fashion until a Certified HAFC Trained Technician is able to examine the installation and install the O2optimizer and tune it properly. When the Certified HAFC Technician has completed tuning and/or installing the HAFC Kit, he/she must sign the "Mechanic Sign-Off Sheet" on page 6 of this manual. The Kit Buyer must repeat the same mileage test after the modification to determine if the performance is in accordance with the Savings Warranty. Once again, the results must be recorded on the Mileage Test Calculation Form on page 6 and the gas receipt to prove it must be saved.

PG 9 Paragraph 1

The kit must be sent back in as reasonably as purchased condition. We realize that you will have used some of the conditioner to test the vehicle and most of the caustic to charge the Fuel Cell. It is also important that you temporarily installed the system without welding, drilling, or making anything permanent. The seller will welcome the timely return as long as it is done in this manner. We wish you better mileage with less pollution for a happier you and everyone!

PG 10 3^rd step…. Piss poor design.

3. Be sure that wherever you put the Fuel Cell in your engine compartment, it cannot touch any metal parts of the vehicle. The outer plates are positively charged and could short out easily. Mount the Reservoir so that the water level is easy to see and the little plastic lid on top is exposed and it is easy to pour water in to fill it as necessary. If you live in a southern climate, mount the Reservoir in the coolest place possible under the hood and, if you are in a Northern climate, do the opposite by putting it in the warmest place possible.

PG 11 5^th step

5. The kit comes with an illuminated toggle switch so you can manually shut the system off. It can be mounted anywhere by drilling a 1/2" hole into your dash or with use of the supplied mounting bracket.

PG 14 Paragraph 2

�� Drill a .339 hole into the air intake hose close to the air cleaner. Use a 1/8NPT "PIPE TAP" to cut a thread into the air intake box before air filter. Screw a 90° white nylon fitting into this hole.

PG 16 Paragraph 3 (When getting a quote you enter all vehicle info.)

TO CUT THE FUEL LINES, WE RECOMMEND USING THE RED GAS LINE CUTTER PROVIDED. IT WILL PREVENT JAGGED EDGES AND CRIMPING OF THE LINES. It was important enough for us to include this special tool in the kit.

At this time we are providing you with the most common fuel line connectors on late model vehicles. We have not had a chance to find every possible different style of fuel line connectors. Before cutting the fuel lines, verify if the supplied connectors are applicable to your vehicle. You may have to contact with a local auto parts supplier for your application. If we were to provide you with every possible connector the cost would be too much.

These are only a few short direct quotes from the website above. I started reading the Instructions and Warranty info and noticed it just didn't seem right. There is a full money back guarantee but I don't see how you could possibly get this thing installed, tuned by a certified tech, and a full functional test with out somehow permanently installing some part of it. THE FUEL CELL IS METAL AND HOLDS A POSITIVE CHARGE ON THE OUTSIDE PLATES. WTF. How do you safely mount that anywhere. The rest of the car is negatively charged. This, along with 95% of this company make absolutely no sense to me.

Dan

Eric Krieg, how was the WIREC '08 show? I heard you were there. Were all the other booths pratically vacant except for booth 411. Did booth 411 have such a large audience that they needed bleachers and their chairs virtually filled every minute? Did you get to see president Bush spending a large amount of time at booth 411? Was there a giant sign at booth 411 that said something like "100 MPG NOW"?

Please do tell. We're interested in unbiased truth.

Ok, I'll bite.

I have been selling these kits for some time now and I will put my money where my mouth is. I know it works, my mechanic friends now knows it works.

I have read all the posts belonging to this thread and would be happy to provide data on the kit. As much data as pratical for me to do since I will be installing this kit on a family members car as I own a diesel.

I just ordered my personal kit today. Shipping times are presently 4 to 6 weeks.

There is a new Colalizer formula now that no longer uses Acetone and Xylene. Don't ask me what is in it because I don't know. What has been discovered with the old Covalizer forumal was the E10, E85 fuels and any other gasoline that has some ethanol in it were nuetralizing the benefits of the Acetone and Xylene, thus the change in formula.

There is no one magic component of the kit. That's why it is a kit. The fuel cell produces monatomic oxygen and monatomic hydrogen bonded together as HHO (Brown's Gas). The fuel cell only supplements the fuel system of the car. The vaporizor (magnetized aluminium, figure that one out and tell me!) is wrapped to the coolant hose of the radiator to heat the gasoline to coolant temperatures. The Covalizer breaks the covalent bonds of the gasoline (like changing wood chips into sawdust, which do you think would burn easier). The optimizer adjusts the voltages and resistance of the signals comming from the sensors so that the ECU does not enter Open Loop mode and dump fuel into the engine after you lean out the gasoline. Any one part by itself won't give you the results as the kit in whole will.

I am training mechanics in my local area to be certified installers and tuners. They should be up to speed by the time my kit arrives in 4 to 6 weeks.

I would be happy to speak with anyone about the kits on the phone or via email.

Eric Krieg, I would be happy to do that 1 hour test drive with you if you were serious about it in your previous post. I'd even be willing to pick you up from the airport. After my kit is install of course.

You can request a generic quote from http://www.wildmpg.com. You can buy a kit from http://buynow.wildmpg.com. You can buy a training DVD from http://mechanicsdvd.wildmpg.com.

I have watched the entire training dvd in a weekend educational marthon because I want to know as much about the product as possible.

All I demand is resepect from anyone I talk with and I will return the same.

Please respect my personal privacy and keep phone calls to my busines phone number listed above. Please don't look up my home phone number. I get 30 - 40+ new leads a day and we call all of them, leave me a message if I don't anwser and we WILL call you back.

From a business perspective I can see huge opportunity in my markets.

-Wayne

finally a good post from someone selling the system. i will check out your site and may call you. I am looking at a similar system that i like very much. i don't understand the shipping delay, but that is not your deal. it just reflect poorly on the home company. i mean, 3 weeks to ship something in today's world? i get stuff from hong kong in like 1 week. however, if they have no manufacturing, then the delay. good post though. really. no one wants to flame you. we would like answers and not waste our money. there is alot of crap out there and wasting money with the demoncats coming into office soon would hurt. not that the republicats are much better, but they borrow to spend. anyway. off topic a bit, but thanks for the good post. good luck to you as well.

Thanks for the kind reply. The shipping delay is directly releated to supply. A couple weeks ago there was a 2 - 4 week shipping delay. Orders are flying in like crazy and has put a strain on manufacturing.

We have 2 manufacturing locations in the States ( I am not sure where ) and just opened one in Quebec. We are hoping to drop manufacturing time back down to 2 - 4 weeks again.

Improvements are being made regularly to both lower cost and make a better unit. The kit that is in the installersupport link above is an earlier generation kit and not the new Double-cell kit. We had discovered that in cold weather climates there were a few freezing issues that was preventing the HHO gas from exiting the system. This has been addressed in the new design and for extreme climates there is an additional heater band and skull cap heater that can be attached to the reservoir.

-Wayne

Agreed. Very good post. I would like to ask if you would sell me just the O2ptimizer. In my opinion, the fuel cell you have will not produce enough HHO to really make a difference except maybe to help cool a lean burn and it's electrically charged on the outside. No offense to you, just a bad design in my opinion. I have been shocked and don't like it. Plus, I want my car not to short out on a speed bump Anyway, I have plans for a few of my own fuel cell designs and I am tired of building separate devices to trick separate sensors. It is my understanding that this optimizer is an all in one. How much for that. I know the sensor trick works. It works well.

Thank you, Dan

Hi DanH,

Unfortunately at this time the current position from Dutchman is that the Optimizer is only available with the purchase of the kit.

I can understand positions for and against selling the Optimizer seperately but that decision is beyond my control.

-Wayne

. . . you and one or two dozen other dealers who are probably honest and really believe they will actually get the units . . . all of YOU are of course willing to show real proof IF you get it.

I have been hearing that for years all while lots of people have been trained to install it. Perhaps as you are waiting, you could try to find if any dealers really does have it and convince them to get it independently validated.

come a year from now, if you reach my conclusion, please do the right thing and get the law involved. His 30 years of scams and cleaning out people's life savings has gone too long

eric

Thank you Wayne,

We await with little gears a turning. Later if I have time (off line for 2 weeks next) I'd like to suggest some marketing ideas/concepts.

Brad

Thanks Brad! I would love to entertain some new marketing ideas.

-Wayne

found this on another site, makes for interesting read...

qoute

Right now I would like to hear from brante again, to hear his conclusions.

My step-father brought the PICC/HAFC to my attention. His ultimate position is similar to FMVG's. He feels that he has pissed money away for less return (I secretly suspect that he means me).

David & Jack thanks for the useful real world info.

I consider myself reasonably well read and a decent mechanic & elctro-mech tech, who has also worked for an R&D group. The entire picture SEEMS reasonable (personally the whole magnet portion seems dodgy). However if he decides to purchase, I'll be the one installing it. I'll gladly report his findings(he's skeptical but thinking it over none-the-less).

It seems to me that the entirety of the current convention of the gasoline ICE fuel delivery is fouled up, at least with respect to economy. Unless the fuel is directly injected, in atomized form, into the cylinder during the second third(after the exhaust valve closes) of the intake stroke, clearly a fuel vapor introduced at this point would produce the most energetic combustion. At this point the engine would be experiencing an extremely lean condition. If one didn't have to contend with the modern computer controls, and introduced, say this "brown's gas" "HHO" along with the air fuel charge as a coolant...

just some thoughts on the matter. sorry for the run-on sentences. I was always told that sentences are complete thoughts. the way I think might be flawed as well.

sorry for jumping off topic

I feel that even if the PICC isn't snakeoil. the governing bodies would never allow it to be produced and installed on any large scale, they would lose too much revenue.

If anyone is interested, on the weekly mechanics support hotline with Mike Holler from March 3rd, 2008 there is a call in from a Shadetree Mechanic in Thomasville Georgia. He has an 87 Chevy Celebrity with an HAFC kit installed on it by himself. He states his mileage began at 29 mpg before the kit installation and 49.5 mpg after the kit installation. That's a little over 70% increase in mileage. He was calling because he needed some assistance in regards to tuning which he hadn't done yet.

http://www.installersupport.info/tele/jgs03-03mc-08.rm
This topic begins at the 25 minute mark.

-Wayne

This is a reply to the email I received from Eric Krieg on 3/9/08 at 12:56pm PST.

<quote>
Subject: please let me help find proof for the high mileage claims

Body: try to find out if the guy with the doubled mileage can get press people to confirm - or if I can have skeptics come by for an hour for a simple test.

if there is the real thing, it should be a quick thing to test

I have been trying to get a test like this done for some high mileage system for 10 years now
</quote>

The dealer network strickly forbids the disclosing of the private information for these people. I have already attempted to locate a very successful mechanic I heard from that was within driving distance of me who belongs to another dealer and was denied. I don't have any special contact for this guy. Anyone who has listened to the recording has the exact same advantage as I do for locating him.

I can understand that there are valid reasons for and against the exchange of such details and I respect that.

So this brings me to the question, why not look him up yourself?

Or we all can wait until my kit arrives and see, unless someone else gets it done before me.

-Wayne

Hey, I have a feeling you will still be expecting your kit (or expecting it to soon be fixed) in a few short weeks . . .. come 2009. But while we wait, why don't you just tell Dennis Lee and his followers on the hotline that there is someone who lives a few minutes away from the Lee compound who would be happy to come by and validate the high mileage claim. A simple hour demonstration of top-off-read-odometer-drive-hour-top-off-read-again would settle it all. All Lee and company have to do is just email seshukanuri @ gmail.com and arrange a time and place =preferably invite a local small town newspaper reporter.

Each day super high mileage is delays is billions sent to Al Quida loving nations and hundreds more people dying of pollution in the air. Fact is, the really expensive booth at the WIREC show yeilded no media stories - you can see it did nothing by googling WIREC and HAFC. My idea would be next to free.

Eric Krieg

www.phact.org/hafc.htm

Eric,

I am not sure why you continue to insist to try making me your middle man. Have your contact email the company directly. I'm sure you know the address.

As far as coverage of WIREC 2008 goes, there is very little being published about any of the trade show booths. Of the very few photos I was able to locate they were either of the presidential convention or a couple sparce images of Volvo and the like.

I did however manage to locate one image of the HAFC car from WIREC.

Remember the very important word in my last email to you. Patience, have patience.

-Wayne

Have patience you say just get the media and prove it. It sounds like you have fell right into the Dennis Lee scam. If I am not mistaken have patience is the same thing Dennis and his cult have been saying for years.

Sorry "Guest", I have personal contacts that prove to me otherwise. I intend to get local media, if they will have me, when my kit arrives and is installed. I have just been informed by my dealer that he has received UPS tracking numbers for kits that shipped to customers who have been waiting 8 weeks.

I will continue to wait my estimated 6 weeks for my delivery.

-Wayne

Hello everyone. For the past week I've been trying to gain more information about the HAFC and PICC. Most sites I've searched all say this is a scam. I have found it very hard to obtain any information. My dad and I requested a quote to which we have yet to receive a week later.

Knowing what I do about health and how the FDA and drug companies work it doesn't surprise me at all to have products like this that not many people know about. If in 2008 we all think the best technology is being used, as in health care or in the automotive world I'm afraid we are all being scammed by our own government. Money is the driving force and we are being held back in advances because of the billions of dollars in big oil, pharma, and communications industries.

On the other hand I know that none of the websites for the HAFC or PICC are well layed out. Trying to obtain information is terrible. I don't see why there can't be a place where you type in your zip code that brings up your nearest installer and be able to contact him. It seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors to me about these products. I, too, would like to see one in action and actually hear about first hand experience. Seeing pictures or videos would be good too. I've been collecting a list of contact people that I will soon start going through to find out more about these products. Hopefully 'wildmpg' will be able to help us figure out the truth behind this product. I own a Dodge Ram 2500 diesel and fuel went to $4.07 here in Michigan over the weekend and I need these products to be true!!! I look forward to learning more through this thread.

WELL EXCUSE ME. I didn't realize sales (at) wildmpg.com was an email address.

My apologies, it was a rough morning.

Dan

Vag Pack!

Hey guys, on this whole HAFC thing I am seeing the ability to purchase many of the seperate components at prices that are livable.

Link:

Computer chip - 10 bucks (ebay - just bought it)

Permanent Engine Lubrication - Xcel Plus's Lubrilon Permanent Engine Treatment Kit - 50 (will buy)

Fuel cell - Got a Aquatune cell system installed already (600) - Giving about 30 extra miles a tank.

Heated fuel (for better vaporization) - Fuel Heater - $75

I think there were cheaper fuel cells (around 200 for a cell) (www.thermo1.com), so essentially the kit could cost about 500 total vs. this 1000 for the hafc.

The covalizer recipe should be purchasable through any home depot.

Anyone know the mix ratio of acetone / xylene vs. gas for the intake process?

I use 3oz acetone 2oz xylene and 1oz 5w-30 synthetic in the tank for every 10 gallons. ie My neon has a 12 gallon tank. I just use 3-2-1 when I fill up. I'm not sure if thats what you were asking but it works great for me.

Dan

Found this today.

Fuel Cell alone increases my mpg 24%

-Wayne

sales ( at ) wildmpg.com
(503) 336-1649

Finally! Here are some WIREC photos.

WIREC 2008 Photos

-Wayne

sales ( at ) wildmpg.com
(503) 336-1649

Thats it for pictures?

Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on advertising, and thats it?

Sorry, 18 of them is all I got for now.

-Wayne

sales ( at ) wildmpg.com
(503) 336-1649

today i received an email from the dealer that was assigned to me on the update of the PICC. it talked about the WIREC and how the PICC is currently illegal to install and use on the road. it also talked about how the EPA is refusing to test it. i was wondering if anyone else got this email.

Yes. I heard about that on a conference call.

Which is why the PICC isn't for sale yet. The EPA is testing it for their approval. So far all of the tests run on it have been compliable. I don't know why we are spending so much time worrying about something that isn't even on the market yet.

Sorry dude, Nothing from Dutchman has been or is being tested in New Jersey or by the EPA or CARB. CARB who according to one wild mpg has an application for the HAFC has no such application nor is it testing or waiting to test any hydrogen generators or fuel saving CC's such as the PICC.

Good story though.

You know, I logged on tonight and it dawned on me that this forum has been going for quite a long time. Very impressive. What is even more impressive is since 01/14/2008 when this thread started, no body, not even any of the dealers could show off there shiny new HAFC's. No pics, no video, no nothing except regurgitated words from Dennis Lee. I am honestly not trying to offend anyone. It's just my observation. Please, for the sake of many people, one being a close friend of mine, prove me wrong.

Thanks,

Dan

Dan,I agree 100% that religion and business don't mix. Christians get a bad rap because of people who scam you in the name of God. I did order a unit 5 weeks ago and hope it does work. I guess I'll see sooner or later. I'm going to give a 100% honest report on the results, you can count on it. Bill

"Guest". Sure, they had nothing to show other than a car with a sign stuck on it. But there is much more to it than just that. I wrote a page on how these free energy con men work about a dozen years ago - check it out at

http://www.phact.org/e/con_man.htm

My first rule was about diverting focus away from the real bottom line issue towards something like a big debate with the government, political or religious talk. I just had a large dialog with a big player in this HAFC MLM - I pleaded to let me or some unbiased person test just one of the many cars said to be modified with the existing HAFC. They would do nothing to help that happen - they said for me to either pay for my own proof (become another victim and be accused of being too stupid to get it working) and asked me to bother my Congressional representative to get them to change some law to make PICC possible. This is an old distraction that similar free energy and high mileage con men have used - see

www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html

The other thing to understand is that the small scam is just taking $1000 and stringing people along past any warranty period - that barely pays fines and legal fees from battles with state attorneys general. If you trace this like I have - the real money is getting the more gulible MLM suckers to drink the grape juice and then give their life's savings over to buy dealerships. I've tried to help one old blind guy who bought 3 for $100,000 each. Watch this one - most of the people in for the kits will successfully still be strung along come 2010. Dennis is good at what he does - he is worth studying. This is a far more interesting con than the boiler room phony stock brokers. Watch and learn from a true master. You will see some amazing excuses coming up when Dennis misses his promised delivery of free electricity this July - some of the rubes now will forget about the HAFC and get tricked again with new cons in 2012.

Eric

Www.phact.org/hafc.htm

"Guest", I don't understand your reasoning as to why the rules should be broken on the highway just to do a road test and then have to deal with the court system. What a waste of resources and time with the "hurry up and wait" methods of court. A one or two year court appeal would be awful. Not to mention how detrimental it would be to be labelled as a law breaker during that time.

Guess we will just have to prove it on a private track.....opps, did I say that out loud?

I believe Dennis earned that label from the get go.

Hydroxy, the same as oxyhydrogen is a fuel gas that is easily made. It is 1400 times more explosive than gasoline, but no more dangerous to use, provided that you get some serious education about just how easy it is to injure or kill yourself. There are lots of opinionated folks out there that will tell you that it is not possible nor is it practicable to make it at the time of need as it requires huge quantities if electrical energy to make from a cars battery.

These folks don't know much about a late model car's electrical capabilities. If they have an alternator failure their car's battery will be dead in short order. No part of a car uses more energy than the AC. Many , if not most new cars have alternators that produce 100 or more amps of electricity. Alternators that are recycled are often upgraded to produce that much or more energy.

Most of the junk on the market today is down right deadly. Who would use a mason jar to contain an explosive gas. Clearly you know how to get on line. Pull up Google and type in

Bob Boyce Hydrogen Plans and get 43 pages of education. Then make up your mind.

Open the hood of any late model car and you can't see the ground below the engine. All of this stuff that you see in this compartment that isn't necessary for the engine, ac or other added stuff that we can't live with out, is stuff that has been created by the auto manufacturers to make it possible to cut down on pollutions caused by burning gasoline. The oil companies as well as the auto industry have spent billions in engineering to keep us using petroleum fuels. Hydrogen on demand has been around for a long time, It isn't new. If they had spent just one tenth of that investment on HOD technology we would all be using it today and driving more cost affordable transportation

Government is part of the problem. The more the car costs the more excise taxes we pay. And the more gas costs the more taxes we pay. Truckers pay road taxes every time they by fuel and to every state they travel through. If we all just made our own distilled water and added a little white vinegar to the solution and never bought gasoline or diesel fuel the providers would all go out of business. It would have a catostropic impact on the system.

No matter what anyone says the Govt. isn't going to force any changes any time soon. When enough of us begin using HHO as our fuel the Govt. will find a way to tax us or make it illegal for us to use it.

Toomuchfun

Hello drewdog; having Toomuchfun here!

You seem to be catching on quickly to the real possibilities for hydroxy as a fuel gas. HOWEVER!!!; Please consider this advise as it is offered with the very best of intentions by an experienced explosives handler who just happens to have been researching water for fuel for at least four years. First let me say that I have no product nor do I have plans either for sale or as yet available for donation to the public domain for this old and still developing technology.

!!!!!! ALERT !!!!!! To you and other would be Hydrogen Boost Kit purchasers and installers. !!! What you are working with is a "HYDROGEN BOMB" THERE IS SIMPLY NO OTHER WAY TO DESCRIBE THESE KITS, AND PLANS. FRANKLY IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHETHER YOU PAY FOR IT OR GET IT FOR FREE.

Research over the years has proven that you will need a container constructed from 16 ga or stronger steel to safely contain the explosive power of even these small amounts of oxyhydrogen. I will personally testify to you and all others that I have personally had a bench top experiment, not unlike those you will see on you tube today, blow up in my face! My finger nail is still growing back and fortunately safety glasses protected my eye site. My advise to you and all others is that when you are "TESTING" your kit for it's hydroxy production potential, that you at least place it in a safety container with out a lid on it, out side before connecting it to your power source. FURTHER BEWARE!! It does not require a spark to set off an explosion with this gas. A poor connection or use of undersized wire will cause a hot spot that will set off this highly explosive gas. This occurred approximately two months ago. I live in Florida; but I am working with "OUR GANG" a fellow group of Wannabe inventors, in Denver Colo.; IMMEDIATELY after I regained my composure I telephoned the local leader of Our Gang and was informed that they had a couple of POPPERS TOO! I just hadn't learned of this fact as yet. The leader had suffered hearing problems from one of these events that could only be described as foolish horse-play. We immediately set about establishing a fast and absolute set of rules for all future experimentation. The next day was a Saturday and Our Gang was meeting to assess recent work accomplished. Our Gang followed these safety guide lines, even over the objections of a very experienced airport mechanic "member" who seemed to think that the rules were a bit much. On the very first test of a nicely designed hho booster, our best yet, the dambd thing exploded. Fortunately it had been placed in an open topped 55 gallon drum, that performed perfectly. As could be expected some humorous remarks passed around. All experimentation stopped by total agreement of the Gang. And ; it was agreed that we would not resume testing until we agreed on at least one or more new designs of the electrode container. I have designed a container that I have reasonable faith in its safety value. If you would like to learn more about this explosion resistant safety container, reply to this post. I will be pleased to share it with you or any one else so long as it's design remains in the public domain. And Last of ALL!!! Pull up Google and Type in

Bob Boyce free HHO Plans. Its is a 43 page instructional and an absolute proof of the subject that you can make racing boats run on HHO made on demand successfully. It is down loadable for free. Rest assured I downloaded it immediately and then printed out the entire 43 page document. I have determined that all of these inventors has missed at least one or more very important and necessary steps to the system to build, install and have performed as we dream it could. I'll share them too.

Toomuchfun

thanks for your comments. yes, i have been just playing with the stuff and have a healthy respect for the power. just popping bubbles for now. the stuff is really powerful. i mean my wife gets pissed at the noise and the dog hates it when i am popping em. anything installed will have at least a spark arrester and have everything checked from a safety standpoint. i am interested in your design ideas and hopeful something will come from it. what are your thoughts on the hydro super 2 design? i am close to pulling the trigger on one of these for test purposes. i like his design of remote seperation tank and natural flow to cool the production unit. any feedback?

Toomuchfun!

Response to Guest. Thanks for your interest. First let me say that I don't wish to come across like a a bully, but while you are making noise, you are not making progress. Tho there definitely parts of some of the kits on the market that I would like to try out, there is not a single one that I would spend even one cent to purchase. The people selling this junk are asking to be sued. Example' using a mason jar as a chamber into which you are going to create a fuel gas that is 1400 times more powerful than
gasoline. If you bother to pull up Bob Boyce's free HHO Pans and read the first 10/15 pages you will already be better educated that 95% of the wannabe inventors. I don't wish to brag, but I do pretty well with fabrication of the equipment I need from mostly everyone else's throw aways. I am a retired racer of desert racing and the old jalopies a retired building contractor and the last 8 years before I became disabled and forced to retire I was a Project Manager, sometimes running as many as 10 jobs at the same in ten different locations spread over three or more counties. Tho my back has failed to hold up, theres nothing with my mind. This having been said!

Let me walk you thru a potentially safe HHO Boost set up. For simplicity sake I'll make this a linear process. To be able to get the hho needed when you step on the accelerator and don't have a lot of pressure built up from the boost chamber you will have to have provided a one way in valve on one end of the chamber. Engine vacuum will pull a little air thru the valve gathering the

available HHO and carrying it on to the engine. With out this relief it would be like trying to suck air out of an empty pop bottle. I have found that by reworking stainless steel wall cover plates I can make a lasting electrode for about $1.50 each. In my next boost set-up I'll need 66 of them. They will be divided into four equal electrode packets with a neg plate on each end and every other plate is either pos or neg charged. In my system there will be no neutral plates. Through further enlightenment you will come to learn that it is best to saturate the plates with energy and then bombard the input to the system with pulsing high voltage. This causes the hydrogen atoms to fly apart from the oxygen atom. Typically without this step you are only getting one hydrogen atom to release from the oxygen atom and using a lot of your energy for less gain than you need. You will find this in the Bob Boyce posting. Most everyone is still using lie, baking soda or draino as the additive to their water. Some folks are adding petroleum distillates to their fuel tank. I would like to educate all of you about this. Long ago I found that by using $.69 per gallon distilled water and about 1/3 cup of white vinegar as an electrolite produced copious amounts of HHO and the water remained clean.

This clearly reduced the maintenance issue. and I was not putting stuff into the engine that is not constructed to deal with. If you are able to produce large enough quantities of fuel gas, as it is 1000 times faster to explode than gasoline you must retard the timing to somewhere close to top dead center. 100% pure hydrogen only needs 1% oxygen to support the explosion. For safety sake you must pass the hho thru a bubbler in route to the intake point you have chosen to use.I suggest that you journey down to your military store and pick up an ammo can and line it with 1/4 in plastic and divide it into as many cells as you desire to build your boost system. Again Bob Boyce provides an education on the construction of the cells. Boyce uses cells constructed of 1" thick plastic. I would not know where to find that stuff. I is a little exotic for Sebring Florida. You will likely need to determine whether your car has a map or a maf sensor used in the fuel regulation system. Both will have to be adjusted for their electronic signal to the brain, or you may not achieve any fuel savings at all. The fuel will just be delt with in your catalitic converter. I hope this helped you to under stand that I haven't found a single piece of safe equipment on the market because it does not deal with the explosive issue of this easily produced fuel gas.

If you want more I,ll try to accomodate you. Untill then I'll be havin

Toomuchfun

great idea,

the ammo box is a great idea, never thought of it. as for your design, that is allllllot of plates. how much current are you pulling running that? you have clearly loads more knowledge than i do so far. as i am a newbie. and you don't seem like a bully. both your posts have been the best i have read here so far. keep em coming. we need more like you.... stay cool, you sound like you are.

Agreed, Keep comin back Toomuchfun.

Dan

Dear Dan,

I would just like to share this one bit of info with you and our other Bloggers. The last time that I assembled a cell for experimentation I used 11 plates. all charged no neutrals. I pre-warmed my electrolite. This solution was made up of 1/2 cup of white distilled vinegar, and 1 gallon of distilled water. I submersed the plates entirely beneath the solution and connected it to a hot 12 volt deep cycle battery. Instantly the entire gallon of electrolite became completely clouded, not unlike a white out in a blowing snow storm. This is an excellent example of what brut force power can do. While impressive though. it's not the complete answer. I am confident that blasting the cell with high voltage would have made 50 to 100 times more hho.

I fail to see any purpose in using caustics that will disolve your flesh off in minutes when a much safer electrolite will cost you about a nickel per cup of vinegar, and you can buy distilled water for $.69 at Walmart. Think about that!

Toomuchfun

Thanks, that is another good point about the vinegar. Burning my skin off is not my idea of too much fun.

Thanks

Dan

Drew dog. Thanks for the continued response. I truely hope that others monitoring this blog will get real. AND GET A FREE EDUCATION. Yes of course this hho boost generator design uses a lot of plates. However; really knowledgeable builders have found that by dividing up the plates into as many as 6 separate cells and then daisy chaining the cells together, the 15 or so amps that are being drawn will be divided that many ways. In my case, I don't have enough room under my hood for a generator that contains more than four cells. That equates to 3.75 amps per cell. And at least some of that may be lost to heat. But that makes each cell very efficient. Much of what am writing MAY BE flying over the heads of the average fellow who is just seeking relief from the high cost of todays gasoline. And; diesel fuel is even worse. BRUTE FORCE PRODUCED HHO IS NOT ECONOMICAL TO MAKE AS HAS BEEN POSTED BY OTHERS PARTICIPATING IN THIS DISCUSSION. (brute force refers to hho made by battery power alone) Unfortunately they get to this conclusion, and immediately determine themselves to be authorities on the subject. Then they become deaf, dumb and blind regarding any additional success that those looking for a way around this problem may find. Other researchers have proven out a concept that I had years ago. That was that first you saturate the cell with 12 volts of power. You will get hho. How much will depend upon several factors. Then you bombard the cell with pulsing high voltage, not more amps. Where before you were only "COOKED CORN, NOW YOU ARE GETTING POPPED CORN. As strong as the molecular bond of the 2 hydrogen atoms is to the oxygen atom, it is not enough to prevent what we like to refer to as catastrophic failure to this connection. As I send you this posting I am smileing as I am looking a a really impressive little circuit board that isn't more than 3"X4 1/2", that does exactly what I have just described for you. BOB BOYCE FREE HHO PLANS, pg 19. Just do it.

Toomuchfun

Hey there Paramedic,

Welcome. and good luck with your HAFC if you do order and if it ever shows up. I don't know if any of this will help because it could all be BS like everything else I have found on Dutchman and Dennis Lee. I am not saying the tech doesn't work but this guy/company is a sham and the product is a piss poor design. 1 its to expensive and 2 as I said before, read the install instructions. The unit itself can not touch any metal in the engine compartment because the skin of the unit is positively charged. The rest of the car is negative, being it is all ground to chassis. How do you properly mount that. A short to ground would make short work of your electrical since this thing gets hooked up via batt/alternator. Anyway here is some info. I hope it helps.

http://www.befreetech.com/contact.htm Kurt Anaheim dealer in Florida

http://www.sales.getmostmpg.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=5&=SID price and usage of covalizer

Also, give this website a try. I have emailed back and forth with this guy and he is pretty cool and willing to help. You can have his design and build plans right there on his page and if you don't want to build it yourself, he will sell you a booster for 200 bucks. I am working on my own little twist of his design now.

BTW... His booster claims to make more gas than the HAFC claims to make.

Hope this helps.

Dan

Here is the link for the $235 booster Smacks Booster 1.7 LPM $235

I have built one and it works - 460 ford truck passed emmissions withOUT catalytic converter on it.

rcb

Whoops, never put the good site...

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

I would be happy to answer your questions Paramedic6252 as I sell the units as well.

Credit cards are accepted at the discretion of each independent distributor. We have a credit card processing option and will gladly accept credit cards. I can't make excuses for anyone else, but I see no reason that every distributor shouldn't be able to accept credit cards.

Our installation base is still fairly small relative to the population. Email me and I would be happy to give you a phone number to listen in on from the mechanics who are actually installing these things.

The magazine ad you responded to is routed to a sequential participant in the ad campaign who may be located anywhere in the country.

The HAFC kit has been independently tested by the New Jersey emissions control board. We have also applied for California CARB approval and are awaiting response.

Covalizer is added every fill up. 1oz per 25 gallons. A bottle is rated to last 400 gallons. Each bottle is about $20.00

My new certified mechanic in the southwest just got a 74% improvement on his first install. I just started pumping advertising into his local market now. :)

Although not independently verifiable yet, mechanics who are fiddling with the load sensing circuits have been seeing improvements of 100% to 300% improvement.

Hello, I'm glad someone addressed some of the issues bouncing around out there. I'm a recruiter waiting for my fuel cell, I should have it this week. I have a mechanic who'll install it for me and if it works as advertised I will buy a dealership. Sadly, there are alot of scammers out there and people are turned off but at the same time ready for anything that will help them from a financial standpoint. I was at the WIREC show and feel Mr. Lee is sincere. The display was very well done and Mr. Lee answered everyones questions. Dutchmans display was by far the most popular while I was there. Any grass roots effort takes a lot of effort and time, setting up manufacturing, training staff in all aspects and all the other factors that go into a business is a lot of work. I hope these systems will help make a lot of people happy in the long run. I hope to meet you someday and we can look back and smile and be happy we were involved in something good. BillyD

Billy D

Pleased to meet ya! Hope your experience works out for you! I have been trying to educate the average stiff thats just getting into this hho stuff. I invite you to check out my several postings. I have bounced around a bit among the fellow bloggers, trying to share the real experience. Please think before you jump into this. An investment into an experiment is an expectation. If you want information that you can't seem to find otherwise you may have to pay for it. Thats ok, just don't go over board unless you are convinced that the equipment isn't a safety hazzard. It won't take many accidents or fatalities before the Govt. steps in and regulates this industry too, or out laws it outright. That is when we all pay the piper.

Toomuchfun

Hello, I just realized you sent me a message on the 26th, I don't think I responded to it. Thanks for the warning, I did recieve my unit and I'm having it installed next week. I'll let you know what happens. Bill

BillyD, Et.Al,;

There is a lot of information that isn't being addressed regarding these HHO boosters. One of the most important being that you can chain up to six cells together and get up to six times the HHO production with out increasing the original amp input. The amps being divided into the number of cells. All six of these cells can be in the same container. Earlier inputs in discussions between Jk/al /trds. and Brante and others alluded to the fact that the HHO boosters were unreasonable in the claims being made about their performance. However; Stan Meyers, and others including Bob Boyce learned that by pulsing the electrically saturated electrodes with 3 different levels of high voltage, that additional hydrogen was separated from the oxygen atom. Bob called these mono hydrogen atoms. Any hho bost system you install is going to need to address several issues. Before you get too far, determining there are some things to consider. one of them is to check your automotive manual specific to the brand and model to insure that everything the Mfg. call out for regular maintainence is current. After that you must make adjustments with the electrical input values that are sent to the cars computer involving fuel control. Some of the Boost kits include the electrical componants to accomplish this. The best kits also include a high voltage pulse modulator as well as reastat for adjusting the voltage in sent by the o2 sensor, and maf. or map sensor to the brain. I have good reason to point this out. Claims are being made of increases in fuel mileage of from 10% to an outrageous 70%. The fact of the matter is that we can run the Engine entirely on HHO alone. BUT TO DO SO YOU GOTTA MAKE THAT MUCH!. By increasing the performance of the booster by increasing the # of plates in each cell and the # of cells up to six it can be done. Thats is where I am going with my R&D. I have a 2000 cc engine available in a car that I have kept around just for this work.

Toomuchfun

Sounds interesting, I don't understand some of it but please keep me posted on your progress. Billy

Dear wildmpg.

If that covalizer is 190 proof food grade corn squeezins, and I am gettin a gallon of it for $20.00 US, It's not a bad deal. However do a little math. It only requires 1/1000th of the HHO fuel gas to provide the same explosive power as gasoline. There exists demonstrations on you tube that clearly show engines starting and running on hho alone. In spite of some biased opinions it is remarkably easy to make. Why does your system need this expensive additive. $20.00 will just get you 4 more gallons, and if you only get 20 mpg you still would get an additional 80 miles for this expense. A quality HHO boost should need nothing else added. Sorry! Don't mean to break your chops. Just a reasonable observation. I invite you and others to check my postings, It's for sure you will all gain from my 4 years of research and testing, and it's free energy for all of you.

Toomuchfun

I don't know what the Covalizer is made of. All I know is that is has been chemically engineered by a chemist familiar with the numerous additives found in fuel delivered around the country.

It's 16oz in a bottle good for 400 gallons. Used to help break apart the covalent bonds in your gasoline.

I am aware of the explosive potential of many gasses, that's why HHO (brown's gas) is so facinating to me. I have witnessed it implode creating a vacuum.

-Wayne

Wayne,

I have heard the covalizer is carcinogenic how much extra cost to each used gallon of gas does it add?. I try to clear up many of the BGas myths at

http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm

For exmaple, Dennis still knowingly lies about browns gas imploding. What you witnessed was what I witnessed in 1996, a small amount detonated in a sealed container making steam, but the walls of the container being cold quickly made the steam condense to water (much less volume) causing a vacum that pulled up a cylinder. The stuff is not just a detonation risk, but the unbonded hydrogen can corrode many materials even plastic and the caustic is very dangerous as well.

(He does a lot of tricks that most people not being scientists would simply fall for ). I discovered the newspaper in NM that at first ran an unsubstantiated claim of high mileage for the HAFC or PICC quickly since realized the error of their ways and replaced that unchallenged report with the following one summarizing Dennis's absurd claims and his long criminal history at

http://www.lcni5.com/cgi-bin/storyviewxarchive.cgi?080+20071112.News.2007119-3314-080-080030.archive+News

I understand that Dennis's leading installer is in NM, I am trying to put him in touch with a skeptics group in that state that I believe is willing to be independent witnesses to a demonstration that the installer says he is willing to give. I just want to get at the truth and report it. If they validate the high mileage, I will fly out to check it out- if I see it true, I will pay you and the installer each $1000 for setting me straight. In any event, I will publish the results on this forum and on my page at

www.phact.org/hafc.htm

Doesn't it seem strange that Dennis runs a million dollars on ads (that look like a scam to most observers) - but this much later doesn't have enough kits to even supply dealers?

Eric Krieg

Where have you heard this about the covalizer. I have never heard such information. In fact I have heard just the opposite as it should be from a company who states being enviromentally friendly. Please identify your sources.

I am not sure what you are trying to explain. Upon ignition a vacuum was created and liquid was drawn from below to above. You have just confirmed that.

I am not sure how you can state the fellow we spoke with today together is the leading installer. He is one of the many certified installer, tuner, trainers and he is getting 50% or better mileage on the 20 or so vehicles he told you about or was trying to tell you about.

I think the fellow that mentioned something about grass roots efforts nailed it on the head in the previous post.

-Wayne

Hello Wayne, I'm glad to hear there is a couple people out there who are busy doing installs. And yes , as I mentioned my feeling from speaking with my dealer in Texas is just that, this is a grass roots business that is finally getting enough financial support to go out there and get er done. I'm excited about the prospect of this being real and can't wait to get my cell istalled. I told Eric he would be welcome to do an independent evaluation of my HAFC when it's installed. There seems to be a ton of naysayers out there. I hope they're all wrong. BillyD

Paramedic6252 meet Toomuchfun

Sebring Florida

has anyone ever??

just thought of an experiment. if this stuff is so much more powerful than gas, has anyone filled a pop bottle, fused it and lit it? simply to show the force this stuff has. may make a great youtube video... for safety only. no ideas here... seriously.

Now don't be stealing my thunder.

I have been planning that surprise already.

-Wayne

Drew dog, one of the members of "OUR GANG" of hho inventer wannabes collected some hho in a small plastic Bag. It was about the equivilant of a 1 qt. container. He decided to cause it to go pop.

THE RESULTS TO THIS HORSE PLAY HAS COST ONE OF OUR MEMBERS THE PERMANENT LOSS OF HEARING IN HIS RIGHT EAR.

I CANNOT IMPRESS ENOUGH UPON ALL OF YOU, THIS STUFF IS THE FUTURE, BUT IT WON'T BE IF PEOPLE CONTINUE GETTING HURT. THIS NATION ALREADY HAS LAWS ON THE BOOKS THAT WILL MAKE US CRIMINALS FOR TRYING TO DEVELOP AND USE THIS TECHNOLOGY. THEY CAN ORDER US TO STOP, AND JAIL US IF WE DON'T.

GIVEN WHAT I HAVE SEEN OF THE EQUIPMENT FOR SALE, THERE WILL UNDOUBTEDLY BE FAILURES. AND AS IT IS HUMAN NATURE TO BE LAZY. A LACK OF NEEDED MAINTENANCE ON YOUR HHO BOOST SYSTEM WILL CAUSE AT LEAST SOME FAILURES DUE TO EXPLOSIONS.

tOOMUCHFUN

agreed, not thinking of horse play at all. i was thinking of impressing on those who play with this stuff how potentially dangerous having a container of this stuff under your hood and thinking. hey, maybe i dont need a backflash preventer and such. with all the youtube videos about hho, it might be helpful to carefully document a controlled event. i was thinking outdoors in a field a great distance away..

I ALREADY BEEN THERE & DONE THAT! YOU GOTTA DO SOMETHING ELSE! HA! HA!

Toomuchfun

"Drewdog" please permit me the space to document just such an experiment, for you and all others who care to become informed.

I bought a really nice little 1/2 gallon container from Walmart to use as a hho booster container, and as a matter of fact I was so impressed with it I bought another just a few days later. I made up some stainless steel jumpers and insulated them , attached them to my 11 plate electrode pack, attached these jumpers to ss bolts that were installed in the lid, connected a plastic bag to to the bleeder fitting that also came thru the lid, filled the container well above the top of the plates with vin/dist wat electrolite, and connected the leads to a hot 12 volt battery. It was making lots of hho. Then I smelled melting plastic and immediately disconnected from the battery. I found that I had inadvertantly connected the interior leads backwards. In other words I had connected the low voltage connection where I intended to connect the high voltage at some future time. This araingment was not able to handle the high electrical in-put. I reversed the connections and reconnected to the battery for some reason I was not getting the performance I expected. I reached down to check my connection at the top of the canister and it exploded. It killed my finger nail on my right hand and likely would have blinded me had it not been for my safety glasses. From this experience I have learned not to become complacent when it comes to explosives. I can tell you all that I am certified as a hands on fireworks shooter for some impressive 4th July shows here in Florida. I spent my Vietnam days maintaining Hurcules Missiles I absolutely know just how dangerous just a little bit of hho can be. Thanks for your interest.

Toomuchfun

man, hope everyone understands that. be careful. check twice before juice is on! think people. toofun, thanks for your service and keep the good posts coming....

Have you installed one yet Wayne?

How long has it been since you paid for your dealership?

I can have custom ANYTHING made faster than this scam.

Not yet. See my post #159 on 3/8. I still have a little over 3 weeks until my kit is to arrive.

I have never purchased a dealership.

$1000 for a kit that does exist is not bad considering I don't have the time or desire to build my own. I would rather buy one and try it than tinker with my own design.

-Wayne

And why the hell would you offer a product that doesnt exist?

"Send me $1000, I will send you something, in maybe a year, if your are lucky, and later I will finish something that doesnt exist and I will send it to you for more money."

SCAM

there is a reason for my demo on the pop bottle. most systems i have seen have at least that much somewhere under the hood, and i think most people putting this in would have much more respect if they saw what could happen to that amount of gas going poof. more respect equals safer habits.

2 items

first could we reply to the forum rather than the comment? that way, we could see the new posts at the bottom of the forum page rather than it entered in the body of the forum.

second, has anyone yet experimented with somehow pulsing a spark plug to the plates? i kinda just thought about it this morning. if pulsing works well, what about using a spark plug to really give the plates some juice. just a thought and i am probably way off base.

no way that last post is off topic. who is the idiot that rated that? interesting idea....

Hey there Billy,

You went to WIREC right?

Maybe you can be the definitive answer here. My friend told me a while ago that the PICC car wasn't there because of THE MAN. And it was also discussed here.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/202058/Re-Hydro-Assist-Fuel-Cell

But Jeffotto has a picture of the "1300 horsepower" van at its debut at WIREC below. (According to claims of efficiency on the picc/hafc sites, these are the requirements to perform that test.

A Dodge van (of the type that would have a 318) is about 6000 lbs. Rolling resistance of radial tires is about .013%, so at 65, it requires 13.52 hp to overcome this resistance. The coefficient of aero drag for the typical van is .45, and the frontal area is about 36 sq ft (about 6' x 6'). This is actually conservative, because I am ignoring the contribution to frontal area from the tires. At 65, this works out to 30.62 hp required to overcome aero drag. If you add these, it means that a Dodge van would require 44.14 hp to do 65 on a perfectly level road. (For a reality check, that would mean about 22 lb fuel per hour, which is 3.38 gallons to go 65 miles, or 19.2 mpg -- pretty close to right on the money.)

The killer is the grade, which, at 30 degrees is staggeringly steep. That's a 57.7 % grade. That requires 600.8 hp to climb at 65 mph. So the total required hp is 645. That's three times what you can reasonably expect from a 318 installed in a van. BUT... making it more ridiculous yet... they claim that this figure is just 50% power, so this engine would have to be capable of producing just under 1300 hp.)

http://bwt.jeffotto.com/picc-introduced.htm

Was it there???

****Not my calculations. I'm not that smart.****

Dan

Just got my hydro super 2 unit. The workmanship and quality is first rate. I am impressed with the overall quality as well. Gonna bench test it for a few days to test output, but will post results once it is installed. Should be about a week. Wish me luck.

Awesome, good luck Drew. Keep us posted...

Dan

Guys

I just joined the site, I found it after finding the HAFC being advertised on line. I am very interested in this technology and was debating purchasing it. I decided to find a forum when I located this one. Honestly I just want to know if either the HAFC or Super Hydro 2 works and to what degree. I also am interested in what modifications may need to be made to a vehicle to optimize the performance of these units on vehicles. It seems to me that this type of technology should work, although I do not know anything about performance of either of these units and am hoping to learn more here.

If these devices worked I would put one on my Ranger pickup as I drive about 300 miles a week from Ventura Co to Riverside Co for a 3 day shift. I am a firefighter and not an engineer, some of your talk goes over my head. I do really appreciate the forum but will not be able to contribute as much as some of you. I also appreciate the posts of others as I am starting to understand this technology better.

If the general consesus was that the technology worked, we had some hard results and I could talk with an installer I would be scheduling an installation. I am anxious to hear about the installation and results of the Super Hydro 2 on Drew's vehicle. Drew was that a single or double unit and what is the make model and size of the motor you are using it on? If yours goes well I will be looking for one myself.

Respectfully

Rich

Hello Rich, I just recieved my HAFC, I'm trying to get my mechanic to install it in the next week or so, he' really busy but uses a DYNO which should give best results. I'm not an engineer either but I'll let you know how I make out. Billy

BillyD

Thanks, I am looking forward to hearing about your installation and results. I live in California where is your installer at? Does anyone know of any installers in The Los Angeles, Santa Barbara or Ventura co areas of California?

Rich