Recycling used oil

Andy, I think you have a very good point that sythetics are, indeed, better than petroleum motor oils. But, the American public is going to do what their car owner's manual tells them to do -- and for the most part, Ford, GM, and Chrysler have not embraced the synthetic motor oil enough to recommend extended drain intervals between changes. Nobody wants to void their warranty because they didn't change the oil per the book.

Who's to say that there isn't a reason why American car makers have not made the switch? It probably needs to be tested for years before a large enough sampling of results can prove the benefits of synthetic oils. Recalls, insurance claims, and lawsuits are expensive. The car makers are having enough trouble staying in business, although, one could argue that extended drain intervals and engine life are a good selling point. My wife's new Ford Escape has a 7,500-mile oil change interval with standard oil. I'm not sure how that can be, but Ford recommends it, so that's what I am going to do.

Is this the untold story behind the Toyota Corolla advertising campaign? "Just ask someone you know." I assumed that the Corolla could easily achieve over 300,000 miles on regular oil based on their TV commercials. Your mileage is truly remarkable, so your attention to maintenance and your driving style must be commended.

To set the record straight, I have praised synthetics for years for the ability to go longer between oil changes. Oil changes are a hassle, even for someone with experience (I worked in a garage for a few years-hence the name). I was all for it when I could extend my driving over 3,000 miles between changes. Recently I am seeing less justification to dish out $7 a quart for synthetics when Ford is saying I can drive 7,500 miles on regular oil in both my '06 F-350 diesel (takes 15 qts!), and my '08 Excape V6. The way I see it, as long as I stay regular with all the preventive maintenance, these vehicles will last as long as I need.

You are missing the point I was trying to make (many others did too so maybe I did not state it clearly enough!) the best reason for using synthetic oil is not just the financial savings if it is used to drive up to 5 x longer per oil change than with conventional oil, nor is it to make your engine last longer (which it really does, which is why so many European makes have it as a requirement!!

But it is to a) reduce the amount of oil needed to be pumped out of the ground in the first place and b) to reduce the amount that needs to be recycled afterwards!! Think of your kids and grandkids.....

(Not as some Rednecks do that they just chuck it down the toilet!!)

"You know you're a Redneck if your toilet has sump oil stains in an around the bowl!!"

Even if at the end of the day you are not one red cent richer or that the engine does not last even 5 minutes longer than with mineral oil, please think of the environment!!

I ought to mention at this point that many European & Japanese cars are now designed to go to either 30 or 50,000 kms between services.....unless the computer tells you to change the oil, you may need an earlier oil change only.

My last two VWs needed an oil change between 31-33,000 kms....but there was a lot of heavy kms with a 1.5 ton trailer......As we now have a 2 year warranty on our cars by law, (some have much longer warranties than that) the manufacturer has to make sure that he will not be responsible for expensive repairs at any time, so the Synthetic oil is a requirement.

If you only get a 1 year guarantee on your car in the USA(is that still true?), then the manufacturer has little of no interest in the oil you need to use as when the problems come, its usually going to be after the guarantee/warranty has long run out!!!!

What is the standard guarantee in the USA nowadays?

I hope this has cleared up the best reason of all for using Synthetic oil for you....

Andy,

I heard what you said. I am sorry, but while I agree synthetic oil is good stuff, I have to disagree with your arguments. Reducing our dependence on petroleum oil is something we all need to work on for our future. The negative effects of oil are not only from burning it and releasing carbon into the air, but also from the environmental damage from oil drilling sites, spills, and refinery pollution. Synthetic oil is a start to reducing all this, but not a solution.

Think on this: From a barrel of crude oil, 50% of it becomes gasoline. Jet fuel, kerosene, and diesel make up a slightly smaller percentage. Lubricants make up only 1%. The rest are things like wax, asphalt, etc. There is little waste. What kind of diesel are you burning in your cars? If you are burning petroleum diesel like me and the rest of the world, our engines consume much more petroleum fuel than lubricant. So without switching to biodiesel, ethanol, or some other renewable fuel, we put the same strain on our environment whether or not there are a few quarts of synthetic oil in the sump. I will gladly use biodiesel if it were available in my area.

On your second point, if we can recycle the used oil, where's the harm done? (As long as it really is recycled, and not burned in cement factories).

FYI: Most U.S. cars have at least a 3 year/36,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty, and engine warranty is sometimes longer (5 yrs/100,000 on my Powerstroke diesel).

We should be saving in any area where we can with regards to fossil fuel/oils.....

Sadly, although my car's engine will run on Bio Diesel (I checked carefully before buying), the built in water heater does not!! So I am stuck with using normal Diesel....bummer.

My next car (if there is going to be a "next") may be a gas (as in propane, methane etc., not petrol!) car as the price for Autogas is half that of Diesel.....lower mileage though, must work out if the conversion will save anything!)

I would like to see another Bio alternative in this area, hopefully soon......I think that waiting for cheap hydrogen will be a long wait!!!

My two Chevys have 10 yr 100,000 mile powertrain warranty plus 10yr 100,000 bumper to bumper they are both 2007 models they manual requires use to change every 7500 to 8000 miles or 12000 to 13000 km of 5 W 30 at a price of 1/2 synthetics which are claiming the same turn around time, I don't know for a car I don't plan on keep more then three years regular oil seems to be the way to go.

Recycling oil is expensive also it is much more lucrative to have your used oil bought from you then used as a fuel then waste time money and energy trying to recycle it. The company I work for has a fleet of over 200 dump trucks, number of other construction equipment, and mining equipment. It would cost us over $500,000 a year to recycle plus having to worry about the environmental impact from the contaminants left over. Instead we make $750,000 a year in profits from selling it or using it as a fuel, which is a much bigger impact in helping the environment.

I had always heard that the castrol oil (tm) that I used for so many years was made from vegetable oil. Never really thought about that...it just works good. I see that Castrol is now making "Syntek" and advertising it like crazy.

Google searches don't seem to help....all I get is hype and bullshit advertising. Was it made from vegetable oil, and is switching to syntek really better for the environment?

(I think it is since longer life engines mean fewer engines being made, making for tremendous environmental savings...but it is hard to take the long view)

Would not dream of debating the issue. It is not open to debate.

Although of course, it won't hurt to do so, there is simply no reason to use synthetic oil.

I tore down my 89 Ford Aerostar engine with 300,000 kilometers on it, just because it had developed a head gasket leak. The oil had been changed at 5000 km intervals during its life time, just regular oil. It was running on the original spark plugs, and aside from some ring wear on the pistons, (less than eight thousants of an inch), there was no other measureable wear. The main bearings were checked by a sonic device, and the mechanic and I decided that there was no reason not to simply replace the head gasket and put it back into service. (Why do a lot of re-building on an engine with 300 grand on it?) It is now parked with a wonky transmission (think the bands need tightening), after another 100000km, but the rust has won....the body is now perforated. The engine still passes an emissions test after all these miles with its second set of plugs and its original rings.

This was a bit surprising since during that time (12 years or so), the vehicle was never garaged, temperatures swung wildly up and down (Ottawa is a VERY cold place in the winter, and very hot in the summer).

I don't think synthetic oil would have improved this performance. I don't see how it could!

The cost of doing all these oil changes was rather less than the cost of windshield washer fluid. So, to extend the intervals would not save me much money, if any. But short intervals don't hurt.

But then, this reply is off topic since the original question was about "what do you do with used oil"? I suspect that it costs as much to refine used oil as it does to refine new oil, but the producers cannot charge as much for it because it is "used". Therefore it is not as popular with the people who sell oil. However, I have been assured by the oil change facility that all their oil is sent to a refinery to be recycled, so somebody buys it! So its not going to destroy the environment to change oil at closer intervals.

So, the answer to your question, why would I use regular oil instead of synthetic? There is simply no benefit to using synthetic. A fellow told me once that if you change your oil every 5 thousand km, you will NEVER change an engine. My beat up old Aerostar is proof of that statement.

There may be other factors...perhaps Canadian gas is naturally low sulphur, or the fact that I never rev the engine when I start it. Or that I never over-fill it and check the level weekly. Or that I let it warm up before I move it. Or that I never take it on anything but 100km plus drives. Or that Canadian highway speeds are rather less than autobahn speeds, so engines don't rev as high. Or that I take it easy on the pedal, and take my time getting up to speed. (My neighbours tell me that they know it is me leaving the stop sign by the honking of cars behind me .) Or that I select a lane and stay in it when I am on the highway. I suspect that lots of things might have more impact on engine longevity than the kind of oil I use.

Perhaps put a 100 km/hr speed limit on the autobahn, and drive big vee eights at low revs Andy. Cars would last longer with or without those high tech oils in 'em.

;)

I am really pleased for you that your car is running so well, but that is not always the experience of many people that are using up the earths resources at such a high rate......changing oil at 3,000 miles + filter + costs of mechanic.....

THAT was the point, not just how well it looks after your engine, which it does STILL far better than mineral oil ever can!!!

You sadly missed the main point completely and utterly.....read back!!!

The idea is to get people to use Synthetic for longer mileage periods, to reduce the amounts of oil both used and to be recycled in the world today!!!

That is, to be environmentally friendly......and it is far better than mineral oil. So if you personally get 300,000 miles on an engine with mineral, with synthetic you may get 600,000 and at a lower cost per mile AND saving the environment and earth's resources at the same time!! WOW!!

Others may only go from 100,000 to 200,000 miles......how sad! Did you understand the point I was trying to make now?

"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." -- Walt Disney

ummmm....no actually. It takes resources to make synthetic oil. possibly more than regular motor oil, which is why it is more expensive. Especially when you consider that regular oil can be made from recycled oil. And if the oil is recycled, then how are we using up the earth's resources. (I mean, aside from the transport and cleaning and refining losses and so forth which would exist with synthetic as well.) The way to avoid using up the earth's resources is simply to either use renewable material (Castrol (tm) oil is treated vegetable oil I understand) or to not use it at all by parking the vehicle, and going electric or bicycle. Reducing the amount of oil in the sump, or switching to longer intervals just reduces the problem. It does not eliminate it.

My delivery van would still keep on running except that it rusted out. In fact, the engine is still just fine. But then, at the risk of missing the point again....(synthetic doesn't oxidize. I get it.) My understanding is that oil acts to clean the engine as well as lubricating it. That it is not the oil that breaks down, but rather the detergents and additives in the oil get used up in their task of cleaning the engine. Thats why it turns black. It really does not matter that the oil is better...unless it is changed, the additives get used up, the "dishrag gets dirty", so it has to be changed. If it is left in the sump, it will not pick up any more carbon, h2SO4, and carbon-nitrogen compounds which would rot the bearings, seals, and moving parts. (I have heard of some filters which perport to fix this problem, and I know of a program we used for awhile in the military where we simply changed the filter, kept the oil in the engine, but added a little bottle of "additive". We don't do that anymore. I don't know why.)

Synthetic oil won't oxidise as easily...so it can be used in hotter environments. There..it shines. Because of course, in popular modern high reving low volume engines, every trip to the grocery store is a trip around the track. These smaller engines may use less fuel, so they are popular, and they need high performance oil because they are doing a high performance job. I suspect such engines are being over-driven, and they won't last long no matter what is in the sump. (just my opinion here.)

However in day to day delivery van driving like my aerostar did, it wasn't high performance that was needed, it was good low tech cleaning of the engine, and the vehicle lasted long time with regular oil changes. Since I was not oxidising the oil by high performance driving, the interval was determined by how dirty the oil got (as determined by the SAE), not by the degration of the oil. I suppose if I was a plant manager or a fleet manager, I could have had those expensive tests done to determine the optimal oil change intervals, but who really does that?

I blame the longevity of my ford engine on the short intervals. Therefore, if I was to run my next van on synthetic I would keep the intervals short. In which case, then why bother?

Cars don't fall apart due to oil failure any more. They fixed the problem with oil. And they fixed the problem of seals degrading due to alcohol in the gas. And they fixed the problem with emmissions. They fail for a thousand other, more expensive reasons. Most of those reasons seem to involve 20 year olds with heavy feet. Which case it really doesn't matter what is lying in the sump...it is the nut behind the wheel you gotta deal with.

So, bottom line....we have many more points of agreement than otherwise, and with modern engines being very 'interesting", being as they resemble motor-generator sets and computerized jet engines than the ones we grew up with. Oils and pol in general are getting so complex that I had to subscribe to some trade publications just to keep current. Now we have to deal with issues of compatability. Is "your" synthetic oil compatable with "mine", can I replace it easily when I visit Florida or Alberta? Most failures involving grease and oil (according to one study I read about) have to do with incompatability problems. Something else for the poor mechanic on duty to deal with. I can just see me on the highway looking to top up and asking the kid "Hey, does that XYZ brand work okay with the XZQ in the car?" You know the answer is going to be "um, yeah, sure, its what we got dude!"

Surely you have dealt with some of these problems? regular mineral oil is loking better all the time.

You and many others will never ever let yourself be placed on another set of tracks..... if more folks bought synthetic, the price would probably drop even further and the oil usage too.....

Sad, you are really missing out!!

Do you, perhaps, work for a synthetic oil producer Andy? (just kidding)

You are really right in a way, I suppose I try and work for them all, but no salary or other benefits!!!

Its something that really anyone with a vehicle (where the engine and gearbox do not share the same oil), where the engine is still in a good running condition, that does not lose or use oil dramatically can prove for themselves, but many are just too scared!!!

Whats the old British saying?

"You can lead a horse to water, but he has to learn to drink on his own!"

How about also:-

"You can lead a man to Synthetic oil, but his engine filler cap he must open himself"?

It reminds me of a Blond car joke:-

A Blond goes into a car parts store and orders a "710 Cap" for her car engine.

The Guy in the shop says "what is that for?"

She answers "It goes on the engine, I lost it in a road gully and thats the part number on it!"

The Guy asks for a drawing as he does not know this part.

She draws on the back of an old envelope:-

He is looking at it from the other side of the counter and he goes without a word and brings the required part.

"There you go", he says, "$3.50"

The blond pays up and leaves very happy with her new 710 cap.....

If you still don`t understand what the part was, look at the screen upside down!!!

I rarely make an opinon without some facts at hand. In this case, a vehicle which I had personal experience with, a year long job looking after pol stores in the military, and 4 years handling ground equipment at a very busy airport shaped my thoughts.

Nobody disputes that synthetic oil is "better". I just proved that regular mineral oil is "good enough" for an old slow-moving delivery van that gets lots of highway driving. Is that so hard to accept?

I also proved that there is no environmental penalty from using regular mineral oil instead of synthetic. Is that really a punch to the gut?

And I posited that the costs of getting regular oil changes over the life of a vehicle is rather less important than making sure the tire pressure is regularly monitored, that the driving habits are more regulated, that tires are changed from summer to winter tires with alactrity...you know....the basic stuff. Regular maintenance including oil changes, lubrication, fluids replentishment, filter changes, are the magic wand which results in long life to a vehicle. Does this make me an old fuddy duddy?

Regarding compatability issues....THAT, I have experience with!

I have scraped out more than one sump (3 actually) full of what looked like black jello created by some bozo who topped up the motor generator set with whatever engine oil came to hand.....I couldn't "prove" it was technician maintenance error or that it was synthetic being added to top up an engine filled with mineral oil, it might have been two different brands of synthetic. The manufacturerers were quick to NOT return my calls and there are a LOT of different oils on a base. Somebody messed up, not the oil's fault. But then, how do you know what's in there when you are 200 miles away from home and there is nary a drop on the stick? The guy put in a can of oil! This little error was pretty mild compared to the bearing failures which resulted in synthetic greases being used in grease guns instead of the axle grease which was already filling the bearings. Fires resulted there. For four years as I worked in the ground handling section, I cursed the companies who were always coming up with the next best thing, and I really wanted somebody to come up with some standardization. I think if we had simply decided to just go "synthetic" things would have been much better.

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/car/synthetic-oil.html for the bean counters.

http://p2library.nfesc.navy.mil/P2_Opportunity_Handbook/6_II_4.html handbook for policy makers.

http://www.fammllc.com/famm/publications/lubes_bulletins_07.pdf for the compatability chart the poor mechanic has to memorize.

These references support your contention, (and mine too) however a close reading of them indicates a strong use of the words "may result in longer intervals",and "unsuitable for break-in periods" and "incompatible with conventional motor oil", and so forth. I dont believe that I said anything other than that!

I am awfully conservative when it comes to mechanical stuff, and can give many more examples of snags and defects which were found when the vehicle was in for a "regular oil change", any one of which would have had much more costly results than would have been saved by extending maintenance intervals.

So, as I said before, we are in more agreement than otherwise. Especially now that the world is running out of oil, we have to look at a lot of different ways to do things. The idea of a delivery van going to the junk yard after only half a million kilometers may well be a joke in a decade or so, as may be the concept of a delivery van at all! The idea of "waste oil" is already an oxymoron, and the electrical transportation age is only just begun! We might in our life time see goods transported from city to dity by pneumatic tubes, or moving roads or sidewlks. Or something none of us predicted. One thing we can be certain of is that things are NOT going to stay the same.

And Andy, your comment about me staying on this track stings a little, perhaps I stay on this track because I have seen the results of trying to drive my train on the gravel.

I appreciate the comments and the links, but your worries about the word "may" are slowing you down here. Sorry if my "Track Crack" upsets you....

I have personally checked out Synthetic oil, basically for you all on CR4 in a way.... over almost 20 years on vehicles from VW, Mitsubishi, Nissan and another that I have forgotten the name of..... In this I have "put my money where my mouth is", and found NOTHING negative whatsoever in the usage of Synthetic oils. From several different manufacturers from the original Synthetic to Longlife 2 and Longlife 3!!!

(I just realized that I have used Synthetic in a total of 8 vehicles, not 5 as I recently posted. Mostly new cars but also 3 secondhand ones.....)

As I have posted before, none of these vehicles ever needed a new engine, none of the engines was using oil or losing oil, even after over 400,000 km on several of them. The rest were sold between 125,000 and 200,000 kms....all engines in a perfect condition of run in, and running flawlessly.....I also got good prices for each and every one of them, I also sold at above market price......

As your links clearly showed, the running costs were actually reduced by using Synthetic oil and only going 3 times the distance between oil changes, not 5 or 6 times as would appear to be the general rule for modern cars sold in Europe!

The comment on one link that they are not recommended for running in is strange. They do not say why. Probably its because of a point that I always notice is that when running in on Synthetic oil IT TAKES ONE HELL OF A LOT LONGER FOR THE ENGINE TO LOOSEN UP Which I take it to be proof of the superior lubricating properties, stopping the wearing that "running in" really does......if you feel this is a problem, then run in using mineral oil, but many manufacturers have already put Synthetic in, it seems a shame to waste it!!!

A oil additive product called STP many years ago claimed that it was such a good lubricant, that it should not be used in new engines as they would NEVER run in!!!!

Synthetic seems to slow the process down and I would say such an engine needs approximately twice as long to run in as with mineral oil......personal observation only.

I guess if you are a race driver and need to have the engine run in before a race, don't use Synthetic as it takes too long.......but for a normal Joe with a car, surely this slow running in of the engine is a longterm benefit?

For me this point alone shows the definitive "EXTRA" that Synthetic brings in lubrication performance......

An engine run in on Synthetic therefore appears to run in much slower and I think better as NONE of the engines that I had, used much oil after the first 20,000 KMs. (They do need about 0.5 Liters per 5,000 KMs in the running in period)

I use only about 0.5 liters in 15,000 KMs at 65,000 KMs on my current Mitsubishi. From experience with the same engine in several other cars (its a VW 2.0 TD-I Motor), by the time it has reached 100,000, this will have dropped even further.....basically, no extra oil needed between changes.......and all my cars have to pull a heavy trailer (1.5 Tons) around many times a year!!! Which is supposedly bad for oil consumption!!

The knowledge that the Synthetic oil runs better at both low and high temperatures than any normal mineral oil as well as lubricating better + saving money on oil changes and the labor costs as well (yes I know you change your own, no labor costs!!) PLUS not so much oil gets used up from the earth's natural resources, nor returned for recycling MUST impress most people enough to try it out!!!

You save the Earth a little and your money!!!

Yusef1, I really do feel that a man with your experience and knowledge should feel that you also need to "put your money where your mouth is" and try out synthetic for at least a year or two as I have (I have used it for about 18 years), either to prove me right or wrong. I am sure that any testing you do will be honestly and completely reported on CR4.

I am sure in my mind that if you decided to do that you will be coming back in 24 months time and singing its praises completely.....or proving me wrong with personal experiences....

One other point, citing problems from vehicles that you personally did not have in your own personal care 100% of the time is not good enough and you know it, what was said and what actually happened can be quite different to another, in such cases a full personal test by yourself is the only answer I feel.

My own personal recommendation is that an engine should be chosen that is either new, or has less than say 60,000 miles on it and is not using or leaking any oil....

Of course I cannot really see how even an older engine will be badly affected if it runs well and does not use or lose oil......but I have no personal experience there, the oldest engine I ever used Synthetic oil in had 90,000 KMs on it......aprox 55,000 miles....

But that engine ran to 460,000 odd KM without any problems except for a new cylinder head after my wife filled the tank with petrol (it was a Diesel) and went for a fast run on the Autobahn and blew all the cooling water out!!!

The repair was the following and a new cylinder head - I refilled the water slowly while idling the motor and I did not even bother emptying the fuel tank, just added 0.5 liter Mineral oil for extra lubrication and filled it to the brim again with Diesel..... the pump was also not damaged in any way either and we ran a further 100,000 kms on that motor/pump before selling in a running condition!!!!

Without Synthetic we would have had a new motor to install, as the temp gauge was off the scale in red when I got the car back into my hands......and no cooling water to speak off.....but synthetic kept the bottom end perfectly lubricated, even the OHC shells were not damaged in anyway, even though the head was cracked between valves....

Have a great day in spite of me!!

Wow Andy, you would think I pissed in your pickles!

I usually see only such strident commentary on religion, politics or hockey!

To save, what, a couple of hundred bucks during the life of a car? 1% of the cost of the fuel which went through that same engine?

Money put into regular lubrication, rust protection, good filtration of fuel and lube, paint touchups, heck, even training the kids to use a stick shift properly instead of the fancy double clutching they learn from video games has to be considered. Lower speed limits and a pre-oiler to pressurize the system before you start the motorcar? Most cars in the wrecking yard (breaker's yards) have less than 100 thou on the odometer, so who cares that they "could" have lasted 400 thou?

This discussion reminds me a bit of the fella who was trying to sell me green tea. He said, "if you drink this every day, your will live a hundred and fifty years, unless something kills you first." Riiight.

I'd gladly take you up on your challenge to use only synthetic oil in my vehicles. I am just wondering how I would be able to tell the difference since my old aerostar went for so long on the the "cheap stuff". Maybe it will burn less gasoline.

Anyway, you have sold me on the merits of synthetic oils. It can't hurt, and it won't cost much more.

Yusef, even if you personally don't save a single $ (which I know not to be true, you will save money, not as much as others because you do all the work yourself, but you should value your time as well!), you will be doing the environment and your engine some good.....

I am really interested that you are taking up the challenge and testing Synthetic, you are really "putting your money where your mouth is!". Well done!

I am sad to say that the testing needs a few years to be valid as you also well know, but I am 100% positive that you are doing both the environment and your wallet good and not harming your engine either!!!

I hope we get some more people joining your venture on CR4 as well!!!

Please keep us up to date on your venture.

I have always used synthetic in my motor generator sets and in my compressors.....they need to run forever. I just never saw the point to extending the engine life in my motor vehicles since they would end up in the scrap pile for a hundred other reasons than engine failure.

(Plus I had a really bad experience with STP. Not the oil's fault, just take my advise, don't use it on a really old engine. But I digress.)

Most of those reasons for vehicle failure can be foxed by regular checks by a mechanic. Short oil change intervals (for me, it was 4 times a year thereabouts) made for a good excuse to drag the old heap onto the hoist , as does changing from summer to winter tires, checking of brake fluid levels, bleeding (renewing) brake fluid, changing power steering oil, and cleaning automatic transmission filters. Because some of these are so difficult, they are "let go", and eventually there are problems. My aerostar is parked because of transmission problems, brought on by lack of maintenance, because somebody said..."its a tranny, it never goes wrong!" and I believed him! Well, it DID take 300 grand to finally fail!

So, my gut feeling is that generally speaking, mechanicical devices are rarely better off by not checking on them. I think even you would agree with that Andy!

When I started doing the really regular checks and fluid changes, I was surprised how little was going wrong, compared to the constant once a month problems I was getting before. To this, I attribute the regularity of service rather than the quality of the new fluids although of course, the sheer high quality of modern engine components plays a part. Suddenly, my vehicles started running for 200 and then 300 thousand kilometers, the only real change being that I became anal about regular fluid changes.

As far as the great "experiment" of switching to syn oil, it can't hurt. But I don't know that the car won't rust out before the results of the "great experiment" are in.

So this is where I was coming from. And of course, none of the above makes any difference at all if you hit black ice at 100 kmph in Montreal at 2 AM.

Well, enough of this! I have to go and check the air pressure in my tires.