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PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

01/29/2008 9:28 AM

Has anybody tried the PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter (www.picctv.com/us)? If you did, please share your experiences in terms of reliability of the system and fuel economy. This would be more economical than a hybrid car.

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#1

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

01/30/2008 12:50 AM
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#3
In reply to #1

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

01/30/2008 6:23 AM

And he is getting more and more credible by means of marketing, not science!

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

01/30/2008 12:38 PM

More snake oil? I'm still looking for R&D funding for my perpetual motion machine - 1,000 miles to a quart of snake oil, exhausts pure oxygen...

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#5
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

01/30/2008 1:12 PM

If you get the exhaust to be a stable carbon compound, you may be entitled to the Earth Challenge.

25M, this buys a lot of snakes to make oil from!!!

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/08/2008 12:38 AM

Yuck!!

I just read a full page ad for this in Newsweek. I noticed there are links to this thread from elsewhere on the web, so I thought it might be worth elaborating on the scammy nature of the PICC and the HAFC.

If you wanted to buy a PICC you'd go to the website, and there you would find that you must first buy the HAFC (Hydrogen Assist Fuel Cell). This is not a fuel cell (which are devices for combining oxygen and hydrogen to produce water and electricity). Instead, it is just another in a long line of electrolysis devices that have been sold to the unaware for automotive use. Like every hydrolysis device, it consumes more energy than you can get from the hydrogen/oxygen by burning it. (This is true of even the best lab quality devices: you cannot get more energy out of a reversible chemical reaction than you put into the forward reaction.)

The website does not list the price of the HAFC, and you have to ask for a quote. It costs $1045. Other electrolysers, which also do nothing beneficial, cost a fraction of this but are also overpriced: most grade school science teachers can build an electrolyser from a mayonnaise jar, a couple strips of metal and a battery. But even at $5.00 or $2.00, these devices are of no use: the energy to drive the process comes from the car's alternator, which is driven by the car's engine. In a perfect world, the energy used to split the water would be regained when you burn it, but this is not a perfect world. 75% efficiency in splitting the water would be very high efficiency. It burns in the engine at about 25% peak (and usually lower) efficiency. So the system operates at a large net loss. But because little hydrogen is generated, the loss is not enough to notice -- and the placebo effect often works well with these products. You paid over $1000 and are convinced it works, so you are not too careful in measuring actual mileage.

The PICC is equally nutty. The EPA has tested hundreds of mileage improvement schemes, like this, and they all fail. The fact is that in today's engines, 99% of the fuel burns in the cylinder. The electronic controls can be adjusted so that all the fuel burns, but a tiny amount is required to support the reaction in the catalytic converter. Fuel, sprayed into the hot environment of a cylinder, vaporizes almost instantly, and any that does not vaporizes as soon as combustion starts. All 116,090 BTUs available from each gallon of fuel heats up the air in the cylinder (doing useful work) and the engine itself (waste heat). Further waste heat goes out the exhaust. The "problem" with car engines has nothing to do with needing to "break down the fuel molecules into their elemental state" and everything to do with the inherent inefficiency of an internal combustion engine. This inefficiency is shared (to lesser or greater extent) by all heat engines, including external combustion ones, such as the steam engines (turbines) use in power plants. In cogeneration power plants the waste heat is used for heating buildings, for running industrial processes etc. The overall efficiency can then be very high -- because you are using what would otherwise be waste to do useful work.

The PICC and the HAFC are both scams. But there must be ways to increase car fuel efficiency, you may be thinking. There is the Prius approach, which is amazingly thorough in its engineering. In addition to the basic idea of running the engine more of the time at closer to its efficiency peak, the car has 40 or 50 details each one of which is carefully though out to improve mileage.

There are approaches like my Pod One: small, light, very streamlined, series plug-in hybrid -- not an easy add-on to an existing car. But in 2010, GM will bring out their Volt, a similar concept but not so tiny: far less efficient than a Pod One or Aptera, but more versatile.

There's the simple approach of buying a smaller car, or learning how to drive your existing car more efficiently. A modified exhaust system (lower back pressure) pressure and a recalibrated ECU to match could gain perhaps .5 mpg, if the original was particularly poor. Low rolling resistance tires can gain as much as 1 mpg. etc.

But there is nothing you can do to get 130,000BTUs of energy out of 116,090BTUs worth of fuel (let alone the 9:1 figures quoted in the PICC website). All the fuel that goes in burns just fine. (Even carburated engines were not too far off in this regard -- fuel injection and the related feedback systems have allowed us to control the precise makeup of the very tiny amounts of pollutants that exit the exhaust pipe. But if all you wanted to do was reduce unburned hydrocarbons to zero (all fuel burned), you can do that with a carburated engine on a dyno -- in fact, you could do that 40 years ago, in the days of ignition by points. Taking this thought further, if you heated the air in an engine's cylinder with a super fast electric heater -- you'd still have the same low efficiency. As long as the exhaust comes out hot, the engine is inefficient, and no fuel system add-on will change that. Better materials, lower friction, variable valve timing, selective cylinder usage... all those real and evolutionary engineering changes help. Too-good-to-be-true add-ons do not.

There is no conspiracy by the big auto companies to hide fuel mileage improvements from the consumer. Consider that GM has been trounced by Toyota. GM would love to have a Prius (now) because the Prius sells very well (now). Realizing they've screwed up, they will bring out the Volt. But even Toyota has no real interest in selling small cars because small cars are low profit cars. They want to sell into every niche, but they want to lure you in with bigger and bigger models, more power, more features (and more profit). If they could give you all that and great mileage too, they would -- they have a strong competitive advantage. Imagine how well a 50 mpg SUV would sell!

All the manufacturers do, however, go to great lengths to beat other manufacturers in fuel efficiency in comparable vehicles. The original VW Beetle was advertised as being a 25 MPG car. It had 36 hp and weighed less than 2000 lbs. Today's Honda Accord weighs 3600 lbs, and has 160 Hp in the lowest HP version, and gets 28 mpg. Nearly twice the weight, four times the horsepower, far more frontal area... but slightly better mileage than an old VW. Today's engines are marvels of efficiency, given the fundamental limitations of the spark ignition ICE.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/08/2008 7:24 AM

And my daily drive to work is in a 1985 Buick Somerset with a 4-cyl throttle-body injected engine and automatic tranny that routinely gets (even with my plumbob pedal pushers) 25 mpg combined hiway/town driving. Better than the original mfgr claims (partly because it's a rebuilt overbored engine) by quite a bit.

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#57
In reply to #6

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/08/2008 12:56 PM

I have bought an electrolizer for my Camry and it did indeed provide an extra 10 MPG highway and 4 mpg city (35% hwy increase). i mean if you are on here telling people they dont work, and i tested them myself, and results show they do work, i challenge you to prove the drawn energy from the alternator exceeds the equivalent gasoline savings, then i would ask you to refrain from lying to people about your knowledge about certain products. i didnt get the unit they are selling, it was much cheaper, and produces 1/10 of the gas they claim. also, if you think major auto companies arent in bed with big oil, then maybe you should open history books on mass transit systems in Los Angeles ,CA, and ask why GM invested so much into ensuring tracks would be ripped out, and why we still use 100+ year old technology to do something almost everyone in the country must do, and in the computer world, great efficiency progress is too fast for even some of the tech-savvy's out there. oh, EPA estimated my camry to get 23/27 mpg, i see that in my nightmares now!lol

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#58
In reply to #6

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/09/2008 11:29 PM

Check out the new Morgan (:

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/10/2008 8:52 AM

Like so?

Oooops, no, my bad, that's from 1959...

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#66
In reply to #1

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/05/2008 9:40 PM

Google video "Who killed the electric car"

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#2

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

01/30/2008 3:05 AM

HMM... I could be mistaken but I think I think you're barking up a tree. The catalytic converter is and was a scam in itself to sell auto parts. It is of no use what so ever period. There was an announcement by the oil industry early 1970's that they would be putting and ingredient in the process of refining gasoline that could cause harm. So a device was designed to convert the catalyst to a less harmful result.

However the oil refinery industries did not use the catalyst at all ever; a less prohibitive method was discovered.

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#8

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/13/2008 5:23 PM

Gentlemen the PICC is a working device. An internal combustion engine can only burn 20% of the fuel in liquid form. The rest is pushed out the tailpipe. The catalytic converter is used to burn unburnt fuel. The PICC will break down the hydrocarbons prior to ignition as such it will use almost 100% of the fuel. The PICC will debuet at the Washington International Renewable Energy Conference in Washington DC in early May. http://www.americanrenewables.org/ I don't think this would be the place to run a scam.. Yes, Dennis Leigh has an interesting record. Arrested 82 times and held in jail for over a year. Never convicted of a crime. He has also testified in congress with respect to energy suppression. I have been studying suppressed energy technology for years. There are countless devices which could render oil obsolete. Denis also claims to have a free electricity device. I can not speak to this but you may find this interesting. http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news2.5b.html. We are conditioned to not believe any of this. This is very convenient for a 16 trillion dollar a year oil cartel. Keep an open mind. This year will be very interesting. Thanks for listening!

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/13/2008 5:33 PM

OK, but it still smells like snake oil from where I'm seated... Guess I'll see it when I believe it.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/13/2008 7:03 PM

An internal combustion engine can only burn 20% of the fuel in liquid form. The rest is pushed out the tailpipe.

This is not even vaguely close to being true. The physics of what actually happens in the cylinder of an ICE (as opposed to what some people imagine to happen) is discussed in several links I provided in another thread. Also the Bosch Automotive Handbook owned by virtually all automotive engineers is a good source to clear up your confusion. The only fuel not burned in the cylinder leaves the cylinder by design to keep the catalytic converter reaction going. Your conspiracy theory suggests that all college professors who teach this stuff are also "in on it". Does that seem reasonable? Are all the emission test stations in on it too?

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 12:08 AM

I think the biggest set back in understanding new techonology is insisting on referencing "old" sources...

how do we progress without breaking old rules? it happens.

oil companies and car companies are not working together to maintain energy monopoly?? geez. what year is it now..2008...same old disgusting and expensive option?? yeah...I'd ponder that..lol.

peace ya'll...there's hope for the future..embrace it..don't hate it. perhaps then we'll attain it.

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#12
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 6:21 AM

I thing the biggest setback in believing some new technologies is the apparent new set of scientific laws one has to think as true in order to make un proven and un tested statements true.

Accepted statements:

The efficiencies of good modern Otto-cycle engines range between 20 and 25 percent.

The fact is that in today's engines, 99% of the fuel burns in the cylinder.

Unproven statements:

PICC will break down the hydrocarbons prior to ignition as such it will use almost 100% of the fuel

20% of the fuel in liquid form. The rest is pushed out the tailpipe. The catalytic converter is used to burn unburnt fuel.

As for scientific proof of concept, here are two new technologies with a similar purpose but quite a different proving concept. Just look at the type of links provided by Google:

New technology with same purpose and increased credibility:

Plasma Ignition

New technology with same purpose and decreased credibility:

Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

I for example have found a way to save over 75%, up to 100% on gasoline. This is a 100% scientific procedure, repeatable on any vehicle, either car, truck, plane or boat!

Send $5 to my attention and I will tell you how to save $1000's and the Earth.

Money back guarantee!

Won't you pitch in?

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#13
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 7:03 AM

"This is a 100% scientific procedure, repeatable on any vehicle, either car, truck, plane or boat!"

Shoot, I can do that - and I don't even charge 5 bucks!

Just send to my attention the title, registration, keys, and current location of whatever vehicle of any type, land, sea, or air, and I ab-so-loot-ly gar-on-tee you will not have to spend another red cent on fuel for that vehicle, EVER!

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 7:34 AM

My procedure can give you have 100% reduction and does leave you the ownership of the vehicle!

Your's IS a financial SCAM!

Beware all, this imitator is after your goods!

While for a mere $5 I will guide you towards petrol independence.

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#15
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 8:20 AM

Scam, Spam - it removes the need for fuel! And I think I resent being called an 'imitator', when obviously our scams...er...methods are so totally different!

You did not specify - is the $5 US or Canadian? Or does that depend on a favorable rate of exchange?

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#16
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 8:30 AM

For you I will let it go for $5 US as long as you provide a corroborative report on the truthfulness of my claims, which I will edit and use as reference.

If EnviroMan says it works, must be true!

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#17
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 9:06 AM

Absolutely! Your methodology is elegant, your claims impeccable, and the outcome is sterling. Sterling as in £ that is...

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#18
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 9:49 AM

I accept any currency.

Paypal is the preferred payment method.

Thank you very much for your endorsement.

The more s...ers to buy in, the closer I get to 100% independence!

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#19
In reply to #11

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 12:10 PM

I think the biggest set back in understanding new techonology is insisting on referencing "old" sources...

This is, obviously, complete gibberish. In every endeavor (technical and non-technical) we are able to do the things we do today because we are "standing on the shoulders of giants". (To "ignore" the work of Newton, Joule, Watt, Einstein, and others is "ignorant" by definition.) We can come to an understanding of physics only by referencing "old" sources. The alternative, that we simply make things up as we go, leads to ludicrous statements like your earlier one, that only 20 percent of the fuel is burned in the engine. Even in lawnmower engines, which have the crudest carburetors imaginable, this is not even remotely close to being true, with the air-fuel ratio being within a few percent of stoichiometric on most days.

The anti-science notion that fundamental laws and theories are somehow wrong because they were developed many years ago comes out of a profound misconception about how science works. Joule, for example, established the mechanical energy-heat equivalence, in a simple experiment, the results of which would have been considered groundbreaking at the time, 1843. His theory is now tested thousands of time a day and becomes stronger and more relevant with every test -- not the inverse, as you seem to be saying.

There may be nothing fundamentally wrong with the sort of pre-literate anti-science thinking that you seem to promote: were cavemen incapable of happiness, compassion, or doing good works? However, you've picked an odd place to promote such thinking: scientists and engineers tend to be rational thinkers who will not swallow utter BS as somehow true or representative of "new technology". There is nothing new about fraud, and fraudulent claims re fuel efficiency are rampant.

If you want to promote your devices, then send them to the EPA for testing -- unless, of course, you fear their tests will reveal the claims to be fraudulent.

Anticipating your argument... let me guess... the EPA is part of the car company/oil company/physics teacher/college professor/university/engineering/rational thinker conspiracy too. I fear that few here will accept that reasoning. Perhaps you'd have more luck at this site: http://www.trickmagic.com/

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 12:39 PM

Ken,

Very nicely put.

You get a good score from me.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 2:49 PM

Thanks.

You'll get a kick out of this great graphic, which is a response to a post in which I mentioned spinning pineapples with turnips to create energy.

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#25
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 5:04 PM

You are SO right about that graphic! I sure hope that 'guest' is now a member here.

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 12:48 PM

And from me! Now, about the R&D funding for my perpetual motion machine...

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 2:51 PM

Sadly, all my money is tied up in my pineapple spinning research.

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#24
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 4:08 PM

Would you have $5 for my scam?

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 5:08 PM

IT'S NOT A SCAM! Remember, it is a 'proposition'...and it's guaranteed to work. You have my testimonial.

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#28
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 5:13 PM

Oops, I'm new at this, marketing is not my forte.

SCAM is for Supply Corrector for Automobile Machines.

Please disregard irrelevant allusions.

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#26
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Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 5:06 PM

Well, I can certainly see why - you are making GREAT strides! Keep them turnips comin' Ken...

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#29

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/20/2008 5:38 PM

wow..I just stopped by again to see how the thread was going..

Yeah..of course fryman...are advancments in modern science have NEVER proven any old theroies wrong to date..lol.. (im aware many do stand - as you took the intiative to point out..just a joke serving a valid point....hahaha)

Look..as a hint...many "NEW" techonologies are grounded in understandings concerning quantum physics...you know..molecules..atoms..the pieces that make up the atoms..etc..and how they resonate and react..Dale Pond is a good source to google..

The point? not to ruffel things worse..but in the "magical realm" of qauntum physics you find that science is not definite anymore..in fact the opposite holds true... experiments are observer dependant...and many many other wonderous things lol.

None of what i've said has anything to do with PICC directly.

But if you haven't seen one..I'd say your guess is as good as dennis lee's for now..and mine...The man should definetly provide detailed info(lee) to satisfy the need out there..we'll have to wait till he official releases these things and until he finally gets the EPA to test them out...it could be a scam. The man did lose his multi-million corp when he tried to force the GOV to allow renewable energy a fair chance and has been arrested several times for simlair bullshit.So he needs money. woudn't you? but never the less..he seems to have gathered enough - he claims to hit the market soon(mid-end 2008)...100's are driving them now apparently and awaiting feedback..it's all new..i guess. (im not a PICC advocate nor do I really give a shit..FYI..lol)

I wouldn't buy one without seeing one and testing it..and I certainly wouldn't keep a closed mind to this...he seems close..but maybe a scam..I've heard of a few satified customers and I'm gonna "test" one soon myself...Look im sure there is alot of new science you are not aware of fully!!lol..keep an open mind.

p.s. wouldn't you think by now..all those "dealers" he has(who obviously own the device) would know if its a scam or not and put an end to this man themselves? I know what you'd say...to "anticiapate" your response..lol.. you'd say they "must" contiue it to save face...lol.. well...ok...but it keeps growing and you don't see any ex-dealers blogging do you? Many of those dealers already have established business selling valid products and would not jeporidze themselves over a scam..I would thinka anyway.... just a another valid point.

and...Yes..wake up! there is an oil conspricacy...don't know what to tell ya on that!! haha...have fun with this one guys!

ill let ya'll "fact" minded people slug it out from now on. (and ill let you know if I buy one )

send me 1,000's dollars

thanks..your money is needed. hahahaha

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Anonymous Poster
#30
In reply to #29

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/21/2008 12:37 AM

YUP..That dealer I talked to was a complete SCAM ARTIST..hahaha

PICC IS SCAM.

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#31
In reply to #29

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/21/2008 11:42 AM

None of what i've said has anything to do with PICC directly.

True.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/21/2008 4:19 PM

So you finally found some common ground. Took more than a minute though, didn't it!?!

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Anonymous Poster
#33

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/22/2008 7:54 AM

All I can say is wow! The world is a very scary place.

I also add that I am outraged as to how many people this man has taken advantage of.

I dont believe for a second that any of these systems work. Anyone can come up with conspiracy's, here is an example. -people premoting products that do not work are insiders of the company thats selling them.-

To make things very simple here.. this Dennis Lee character has a long history of scamming investors and customers alike.

I do not understand why people can't comprehend the manipulation of science and technology is out there.

It is fair to say that if something can be disproved it is no longer valid and therfore the discussion should be over (IF THERE WAS EVER ANY TRUTH IN ANYTHING THIS MAN HAS EVER SAID THERE WOULD BE PROOF THE MAN HAS BEEN DOING THIS SINCE THE 80'S). Chances are people defending these products no very little or nothing at all about how scams work and the tools and methods used.

On another note people defending his claims have no idea about the technologies and sciences given and are tricked into thinking its believable.

The whole goal of this is to make money in many different ways.

1. Investors - Financial backing

2. Dealerships - Which will eventually be sold for profit.

3. Offering a bogus product and never delivering the product and falsifying claims.

these are just a few ways.

Do your reasearch!!! The information is out there!!!

Sorry for the unorganized rant but I just don't get how people could be so stupid. The picture is there and its already painted, you just have to look at the details.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/22/2008 11:02 AM

Sorry for the unorganized rant but I just don't get how people could be so stupid. The picture is there and its already painted, you just have to look at the details.

No apology necessary. You are exactly right -- it is really troubling that so many people can be so stupid.

The video hyping this thing (which shows Dennis Lee inhaling exhaust fumes) contains perhaps 200 material misstatements of fact. It would be easy to assume that this is a Saturday Night Live skit, and you can imagine Dennis Lee breaking out in laughter as he watches it: Ha, ha, ha , this should really suck the rubes in.

As I said above, I was horrified to see the ad for this in Newsweek. I thought they did not knowingly accept fraudulent ads. Popular Science and Popular Mechanics have always treaded the edge of believability, both editorially and in ad content... but now Newsweek??

Dennis is a highly skilled scammer -- perhaps the best at his trade. The very notion that you must first buy the absurdly expensive electrolysis system to be ready for the PICC when it becomes available is the same technique he has used to bilk dealers and investors with his perpetual motion free energy generator: sign up now (before it can be shown that my miracle works -- or, more obviously does not work.)

I'm just guessing here, but my feeling is that 1/3 of the people who get involved in this stuff (as dealers, customers, etc) are simply greedy, and let their greed overwhelm their rationality. But I think that 2/3 of the people are genuinely gullible because they are simply too trusting and have no education in the subject matter. They see an ad in Newsweek, and think "It must be the real deal -- they have a Newsweek ad and a nice looking website, and a video with pictures of dyno readouts..." Despite the fact that the website admits the PICC does not exist, they still buy into the first step (getting the little "yes" is the sales term) at an astonishing $1000+ dollars!) by buying the hydrogen garbage. Now, Lee has a list of proven, uneducated, gullible souls to further scam. It's a scammer's dream!

If he can afford full page ads in Newsweek and Popular Science, he's making millions.

A sad state of affairs, calling into question our ability to educate people. With an uneducated populace, how can we govern ourselves? Given profound gullibility, 80% of Americans believed that Saddam Hussein was linked to 911 (despite no evidence whatsoever, and despite loads of evidence presented in mainstream press like Business Week, Time, and Newsweek, that Saddam and Osama were anything but buddies, and that Saddam was anything but a religious radical). A similar number apparently believed that Saudi Arabia had nothing to do with it (despite the fact that virtually all the perpetrators were from there -- and the head perp was from the royal family).

Far too many can be made to believe the most improbable propositions.

Hard not to rant about this stuff.

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

02/22/2008 11:48 AM

"Hard not to rant about this stuff."

Man, did you ever call that one right! But as P.T. Barnum said well over a century ago (and I very much doubt he was the first to realize this): "There's a sucker born every minute." I'd never make a good scam artist, because I don't believe in taking advantage of ignorance - rather I try to correct it. On the other hand, my BS alarm is set on a hair trigger, so it's seldom I get fooled... Soon as this is posted, I'm going back to rate yours as a GA.

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#41
In reply to #34

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/10/2008 11:14 PM

Gotta jump in here with my opinion and a bit of a rant... (as a Christian, forgive me if I offend)

In order to govern themselves a populace needs education, and there's no question that our governors are very well educated. Contrarily, in order to control a populace you need to de-educate, dis-arm and distract. Facts: since the 1960's the government has 'dumbed' down public education system, enacted more gun control legislation, and has promoted people (in general) to be more interested in who is winning at whatever pro sport they watch, 'how' the government is going to do things for them, and try to save a planet that is being virtually destroyed more by the very people that fund the government instead of paying attention to what those governors are actually doing. If anyone doubts this, try 'googling' your local and federal politicians and see where they got their education, and what kind of business' they own(ed) and ran/run before, during, and after their term, and who pays the expenses for EVERYTHING they do. Couple this with the cost of living, cost of providing a decent education for yourself or your children, and the OMG cost of a gallon of gas that used to cost under $1.00 and has increased over 400% in 30+ years. BTW, the minimum wage has not increased that much ever. I.E. in 1985 I made $3.35/hour minimum wage and gas was just over $1.00/gal, opposed to now 2008, $5.15/hour : $4.00/gal, relationally that's approximately 50% increase to almost 400% increase. Now, we are supposed to believe that the federal administration is doing 'all' they can about the cost of fuel??? Just like the PICC and HAFC it smells fishy and I am not gonna eat it. This is not a scientific thing, this is just 37 years of observation and paying attention to an experiment we now know as USA government and socioeconomic system. The almighty dollar is why people are so gullible today, hell, I would be glad to shell out $1000 dollars if I could not have to pay that in Gas every month. (a slight, but not too far off, exaggeration)

Back on topic, well more so anyway, there have been 'water injection systems.' 'platinum injection systems,' and, as Mr. Fry has pointed out a few, too many to mention devices, schemes, and scams to save gas and protect the environment. Could some of them have worked? Possible. Do they all do everything they say in a scientific, normal, natural, healthy, divinely or even magical manner? No. Do the research, make the phone calls, and today, for heaven's sake, 'GOOGLE' it!

Here are just a few of the things I have learned, not being ASE, having a BA, or even being PTA certified to work on engines, just a shade tree wannabe.

1) Preheating fuel in a chamber before injection? Why not, my father is a 'grease monkey' from the muscle car days and as I understand, cool air and hot gas make a great deal of power when it burns and is quite a bit more efficient in the energy it produces in a ICE. Would it give an engine a 100%+ increase inefficiency? NO.

2) Would an electrolysis device provide enough Hydrogen and Oxygen from tap water to all but eliminate the need for petroleum fuel? Sure. First you have to purify the water by heating it to steam using allot more than 12VDC and condensing it back to water, the distillation process, and then pass it into an engineered and completely sole purposed device using ALLOT more energy than 12VDC to sustain a chemical break down into H and O in such quantities that it would sustain and power ignition under compression and spark. (120VAC kept a flame burning in H.S. Chemistry for about 5 seconds in bursts, before it consumed all the H and O, and we had to wait about 2-3 minutes before there was enough to ignite again!) Could this be the next evolution of the ICE? Doubtful.

3) Water and moisture actually help to clean out the carbon in the cylinders just as it cleans off the burnt on things off an iron skillet that's hot, and engines are known to run better and more efficient when the humidity is higher. So could adding water to a running injection system increase power and mileage and be more environmentally friendly? Sure. By 100% or better? NO.

Before we condemn anyone, just as hybrids were once condemned and I do believe there was once a vehicle based on the aforementioned procedures in the 80's that too was scrapped, let's see someone actually build and test the devices that are being advertised. If I had the time, money and 'know how,' I probably wouldn't do it either. I'd probably work for the government and not really care how much of your tax dollars I spent commuting in the back of the provided limos and aircraft and then rant about the price of gas and the cost of health care, and how upsetting/exciting it was that the Giants won, and Osama hasn't been found...

Thanks for reading, if you care to reply, I'll probably never find my way back to this forum, e-mail me, awitt1@comnett.net. Of course if you do, I have to warn you I am a Jesus Freak and will preach my fool head off to anyone that talks to/emails me.

Thanks again, please let me know if anyone does ACTUALLY build and test these things, I could use a break on Gas prices...

ADW

SR. TECH

IBEWLU357

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/12/2008 12:29 PM

Nice rant! So nice, I actually gave it 1 Good Answer vote (GA). I am a heathen, and was not in the least offended by anything you said. In fact, I pretty much agree with most of it, which was clearly and logically presented. I hope you DO find your way back here, and invite you to consider registering as a member of this forum. Not a bad group of folks, I must say! And diverse enough that everyone here is a shade tree version of someone else's specialty. That's one of the things that keeps it interesting! Enjoy!

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#36

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/02/2008 11:30 AM

If you put a PICC before the engine, the fuel will oxidize (burn) in the cat before it reaches the engine.

So in a normal catalytic converter the catalyst causes unburned fuel to oxidized (burn) in the presence of air. So if you put this before the engine how are you going to prevent the fuel from just oxidizing before it reaches the engine?

It works just like a propane shop heater that just glows and has no flame. The fuel is simply oxidizing and not producing any visible light. I can't think of a way you could send fuel through the catalyst and not have it burn, put some inert gas with it, but then it probably wouldn't break down anyway.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/02/2008 12:52 PM

You are a much too logical thinker to buy the PICC.

If you can suffer through their video, which goes on, and on, and on, you will find there are about 100 distortions, misstatements of fact, theories for which there is no basis in known science, etc.

They talk about a plasma being formed in the PICC, and that this plasma is somehow conducted to the cylinders through a parallel injection system. Plasma injection alone is hard to fathom (how do you keep the injection lines from melting? how do avoid the laws against tampering with your emission system? etc, etc.) The whole thing is so nonsensical that a refutation would be book length: the chemistry is bogus, the physics are bogus, the combustion science is bogus, the thermodynamics are bogus.

The basic notion that the fuel needs to be "broken down" before being burned is nonsensical. The only HC remnants leaving the exhaust port of a modern car engine are there to support the reduction reaction in the catalytic converter. If I recall correctly, the PICC site used to state that only 20 percent of the fuel is burned in the engine, and that the rest is burned in the catalytic converter. Some ill-informed people actually bought that. The actual figure is 99% -- and that is by design, not because the engine cannot burn all the fuel.

The site claims 900% improvements in fuel efficiency. If we assume 20 efficiency* as being typical of an ICE, that would mean 180% efficiency -- well "over-unity". Over unity (perpetual motion) machines are Dennis Lee's primary scam -- it's where he has made millions, but judging by the fact that they can afford national ads in magazines like Newsweek suggests that this scam may net him even more money.

* which has nothing to do with the amount of fuel that is unburned in the cylinder

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/06/2008 12:19 AM

I agree with everything you say Ken, but is the part of "If it does not increase your fuel economy by at least 50% you can return the kit for a 100% money back refund." also a scam? Does he steal your money and credit card information? How can one claim that your money will be returned along with him making money of of the scam at the same time. It's more of an open question - only directed towards you because you seem to have knowledge on this man and his history of scams.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/06/2008 11:08 AM

I can't say whether the return policy is a scam or not. My guess is that it is not. He is setting up dealer/installers, and I would guess that his main source of income is from that activity more so than from actually selling the products themselves -- in his standard business model, the products are incidental. In his free-energy scheme which he has run for 20 years or so, he sells dealerships, rather then the product itself, which has constantly been "in development" or "almost ready" for year after year.

The Hummingbird Motor and Sundance Generator scam is his most famous, in which a generator supplies the current to run a motor, which runs the generator... He holds large gatherings in stadiums, and sells dealerships, future rights to buy the product, etc, etc. A dealer quoted in the linked article says they are 1/3 of the way to their goal of 1.6 million people in their buyers' club, (at $1,000 each). 500,000 x $1,000 = half a billion. (Let's hope that figure is not correct.) Each of the buyers' club members has the right to rope in 10 friends at $1,000 each. The dollar amount quickly becomes staggering -- all without selling a single actual product.

So my guess is that they happily refund money if the HAFC does not work. (The PICC, I assume, will never exist -- at least not as described in the video in which plasma is somehow injected in a system parallel to the original injection system.) We had a forum member here who had built his own H2 generator, and was convinced that it worked. Finally, he re-did his tests, and found that it did not. He was less gullible than the average guy on the street. My guess, pure guess, is that perhaps 10% of customers would return these things -- maybe even less. The rest would convince themselves the device has some beneficial effect. (And I would assume that these dealers would try to string these people along: "Well, the HAFC is really intended to work with the PICC, and your Honda is one car in which we've found that the first step is least effective, but the second step, the PICC is actually most effective. We'd be happy to refund your money, but for your car there is a real opportunity to do unusually well with the combination." ) Who knows -- I'm just guessing at how they work their refund policy.

Eric Krieg devotes a fair amount of time to scam busting. I really don't have to time to follow up on this stuff, but find increasingly that in my field of work, there are many scam-like claims and devices (Jim Woolsey's 500 mpg car, 300 MPG Priuses, the EEstor, certain motors, etc.) Will the EEstor pan out? Who knows. But it would be 100 times better that any other supercapacitor (seems unlikely)... but Kleiner Perkins has invested (credible)... but they don't list it in their portfolio (odd) ...

When the Automotive X Prize was announced a year and a half ago, 100 mpg seemed a worthy goal. But today, there are suddenly prototypes or ideas being promoted with astonishing claims. The claims are supportable if you follow the very "unusual" logic employed. (On Aptera's website they say 1000 mpg would be unrealistic, but that the equally arbitrary 300 mpg is realistic. With a plug-in hybrid you can do the math to support any mileage claim, if you ignore the energy content and environmental cost of electricity. I am working on an article in which I show how my Pod One gets 6000 mpg, using the logic of Jim Woolsey, as presented in his Jan 1 2007 op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal.)

Enough ranting... Arrrgggh.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/06/2008 6:22 PM

Thanks man, you really know your stuff

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#62
In reply to #38

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/24/2008 3:09 PM

He clearly says 'the dealer will refund your money'. This is a very precise selection of words. He has made no promise to stand behind the product.....he´s relying on the middle man to stay in business long enough to refund your money.

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/24/2008 3:22 PM

More likely relying on the middleman to take the heat for ripping you off...but then I'm a natural-born cynic!

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#43

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/12/2008 3:39 PM

here is one http://www.fitchfuelcatalyst.com/products/auto/inline_instruct.html that approached me at the performance shop I was the manager at. I dyno tested their product on three different vehicles and found it to be a LARGE restriction in the fuel system reducing power and shortening fuel pump life. the loss of power required one to push the throttle further down to move the vehicle along at the same pace, therefore burning more fuel, but at a lean condition. the supercharged vehicle lost over 90rwhp on the dyno due to lack of fuel pressure and nearly burned a hole in the pistons. it was quite a struggle to get the money back, and they would not dare try to pay for a 8500.00 engine.

sad world indeed. although, i am attempting a propane conversion on my 79 buick lesabre with a 4bbl,350ci engine, right now i sit at 20 mpg on the freeway, with careful tuning, and i hope for 30mpg on propane and extensive head work, intake manifold, exh, ect... if anyone would like more info on this project and similar ones such as 950crankhp pump gas corvette that gets 25mpg write me at westbenddyno@juno.com or call Forest at 1-414-322-0280

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#45
In reply to #43

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/15/2008 10:40 AM

Better yet, register as a member of this forum, and keep us all routinely posted! I'd personally like to hear more about that 'Vette at 25 mpg on pump gas going to 950 hp! Woo woo!!! (I want it!)

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#44

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/14/2008 9:39 PM

Interesting thread. I thought I would ask for a quote, and guess what? The 'dealer' that contacted me said basically they were to busy to process credit cards and could only accept checks. WOW! To busy to process a credit card. And of course, there is no protection if paying by check. That alone is enough to scare me off, let alone the old saying, "If it looks to good to be true, it probably isn't."

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/15/2008 10:44 AM

So they have time to verify the check, fill out the deposit slip, and take it to the bank for deposit, but not time to run a number through the system. RIGHT! Do not walk, RUN as fast as you can from that person.

Someday, you will meet a man with a sealed deck of cards who will offer to bet you that he can tap the box and make the Jack of Hearts jump out and spit cider in your ear. Do not take that bet, for as sure as you do, you will end up with an ear full of cider. - R.A. Heinlein

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#47

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/25/2008 2:50 PM

Good day to all. This I am glad I stumbled on this forum, and the last statement was only made a few days ago; so maybe this can be a place to bounce ideas off of intelligent people for a change. Thought I would share my experience.

I reply to this thread today because I was curious. I saw the video on the internet, which did go on and on, saw the claims of "plasma" that were made on the website, saw...well saw everything else everyONE else has mentioned already.

Any-hoo, I decided to get in touch with the people directly and ask some questions. I wanted to know more about the PICC directly, but the guy the Mr. Annaheim that I got in touch with wanted me to first buy the HAFC. Whatever-he's a salesman. I respect that, but I replied in the negative about the HAFC. Still, I wanted answers to my questions. Those questions are as follows:

"It seems your technology will require heat to start the reaction; is that a true assumption?"

"If my assumption is true, what happens at start up of a vehicle equipped with a PICC?"

"It seems to me that the reaction will not start immediately, and therefore the mixture going to my engine will be very "rich". Is your computer chip equipped to handle this circumstance?"

"According to your pictures and animations, there is a tube that combines air, water, and gasoline inside the PICC. What is it made out of?"

"The info-mercial claims that if one were to see the reaction that takes place inside the PICC it would appear like a lightning storm. Why is there no live-action footage of this phenomenon?"

"Further, why was there no live-action footage of a working PICC?"

After some back and forth, and my genuine curiosity, I eventually got the answer "there is really no one that can answer these questions". The excuse was they could not reveal secrets...whatever.

Any reaction? I am not an engineer, and so do not feel right joining this site in good faith. But, if anyone would care to, you can reply to another412@yahoo.com. I will bookmark this page, and am completely willing to keep the discussion going.

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/25/2008 3:56 PM

Please join us. Actually being an engineer is not a requirement for joining up. You clearly ask the sorts of questions engineers ask. We are not always particularly tolerant of posts such as "Please tell me everything about electric motors. I am a fourth year electrical engineering student," but we are all happy to help with any reasonable question (and quite a few unreasonable one's as well). You'd be an asset here.

If the PICC existed, they could give you answers -- and if it were really in development, they could also give you answers, except for a few details for which patents have not been filed.

The core Dennis Lee scam is to sell dealerships, not products. So then, whether the product exists or not is immaterial. His perpetual motion generator dealerships have been for sale for many years, but he has never delivered a single perpetual motion generator, for obvious reasons. (BTW, perpetual motion/over unity/free energy/magnet motor/gravity motor/zero point are synonyms, in common internet parlance. A couple of these have legitimate scientific meanings, which helps the scamsters.)

The HAFC is something that can actually be delivered, not a new twist altogether for Lee -- he'll do anything to make a buck, even if it means he has to stoop to actually selling a real product. (He even sells a few products which, unlike the HAFC, actually work -- they are just wildly overpriced.)

Of course your questions have no answers, because there is no PICC. The PICC is the lure to get you to by the HAFC -- and once you have done so, then you can be added to the gullible customer list for future scams.

As you probably know your car engine is a heat engine. Its power depends on cool air going in, heating the air in the cylinder by burning the fuel, which causes the air to expand and increase its pressure, which presses the piston down, etc. A cool incoming mixture improves efficiency, because more air (a greater weight of air) goes in, meaning that more fuel can be burned, and more expansion can take place. Introducing something very hot into the intake stream (such as this fictional plasma) would erode efficiency. The entire means of function of an internal combustion engine is, as the name implies, internal combustion. If the reaction occurs outside the cylinder, the expectation would be that (unless many factual details are provided to explain otherwise) the reaction inside the cylinder would be less robust, and power would suffer.

There are other threads here on the PICC, HAFC, Dennis Lee, perpetual motion machines, magnet motors, John Searl, cars that run on water, etc. which you can find with the search function.

Welcome, and I hope you join us.

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#50
In reply to #48

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/25/2008 10:16 PM

Wow!!

I also am not a member and I feel honored to be able to write this. It is great reading and wonderful to see that the wool has not been pulled over everyones eyes.

I work daily with diesel oxidation catalysts and particulate filters these items are designed to trap or chemically react to cause change. Class eight truck engines are now under some of the most stringent Law's. our engines are emitting cleaner exhaust because of it. like the catalytic unit on cars they were designed to remove a particular item that could not be cleaned up by improving combustion!!

I also stand in the defense of what I have read here. Gas at the prices we are paying makes it easy to pull in new victims daily it is to bad that who gets pulled in often cannot afford it the most. sorry for butting in

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/26/2008 8:03 AM

Never apologize for butting in, that's how this place is designed to work! And PLEASE consider registering as a member. We have an over-plentiful supply of 'guests', and it gets hard to tell y'all apart...

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/29/2008 4:02 PM

'the catalytic unit on cars they were designed to remove a particular item that could not be cleaned up by improving combustion!!'

Please explain me the particular item that was never induced how it can be removed?

The oil industry thought to increase production if this particular item were added and though they did build the necessary attachments onto the refinery, they did not ever use it because they found a cheaper way that did not require it's use.

Now what particular item are you referring to?

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/30/2008 12:00 AM

Please explain me the particular item that was never induced how it can be removed?

Mainly, the guest is referring to NOx. Typically, improved combustion means higher temperatures and pressures. Air is 78% nitrogen, meaning the vast majority of what is in the cylinder is nitrogen. At high temperatures and pressures, some of the nitrogen will combine with oxygen to form oxides of nitrogen. The catalyst is mainly designed to get rid of oxides of nitrogen through a reduction process.

Secondarily, the catalyst will burn unburned hydrocarbons, and will convert CO to CO2, but these are not the key reasons for catalyst use. The amount of unburned hydrocarbons going into a converter is designed to keep the converter hot. An engine can be adjusted to have an excess of O2 in the exhaust stream, (in other words all the fuel is burned and there is O2 left over) but then NOx goes up.

If you look at a graph of CO, HC and NOx vs lambda (excess oxygen in the exhaust stream) you see there is no point where all three can be near zero. In simple terms, and going back to carburetor days, if you turn the mixture screw one way or the other, there is no setting than makes all three values low. Thus, the need for the catalytic converter.

The oil industry thought to increase production if this particular item were added and though they did build the necessary attachments onto the refinery, they did not ever use it because they found a cheaper way that did not require it's use.

What particular item are you referring to here?

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/31/2008 4:48 PM

The catalyst

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/01/2008 10:40 AM

Ah ha!

I reread your first post in this thread:

HMM... I could be mistaken but I think I think you're barking up a tree. The catalytic converter is and was a scam in itself to sell auto parts. It is of no use what so ever period. There was an announcement by the oil industry early 1970's that they would be putting and ingredient in the process of refining gasoline that could cause harm. So a device was designed to convert the catalyst to a less harmful result.

However the oil refinery industries did not use the catalyst at all ever; a less prohibitive method was discovered.

A catalytic converter does not "convert" a "catalyst". It is a catalyst, used to convert HC and CO to CO2 and water, and NOx to nitrogen and oxygen. A modern catalytic converter simultaneously supports oxidation reactions (the first two) and a reduction reaction (the last).

The catalytic converter is by no means a scam to sell auto parts, and the US auto industry whined endlessly about having to reduce emissions to a level that would require their use. Lead in fuel damages the catalyst, so fuel had to be reformulated to be usable with catalytic converters.

On the vehicle I am developing, I'd love to be able to achieve the required low level of pollutants without one, but there is no reasonable way to do so -- thus every gasoline-engined car today has a catalytic converter and a closed-loop fuel injection system that senses exhaust oxygen levels, and modifies injection volume to maintain the correct levels.

More on catalytic converters here.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/01/2008 10:52 AM

Thanks I should have evaluated that tree long ago...I'm going to gather information

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

03/25/2008 5:20 PM

I concur with every word in post #48 by Blink, especially the invitation to register as a member. And the PICC is definitely a scam...

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#59

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/10/2008 12:06 AM

I have not read all the replies to PICC topic. I would like to add that even if there is a finite number of energy units released in an ICE much depends on flame propagation rate. race cars used to have spark advance go to about 60 degrees before top dead centre. [at high rpm]this is compensate for less mixing time for liquid fuel [aviation fuel]to air and less time for complete combustion. Don't do this to a diesel engine, faster flame propagation. My natural gas auto was reduced in power I was told due to slow flame propagation. new technology for nat gas and hydrogen has high pressure fuel vapour sprayed into the combustion chamber "through the spark plug". Same energy per kilogram, shorter combustion period.

If an engine or process could speed the flame propagation so that all the combustion took place between top dead centre and the point at which the exhaust valve opened [or even earlier] then the same amount of fuel would yield a more efficient running motor.

the fuel vapour technology [old and new] has the same amount of energy per litre of gasoline and maybe they can extract the same amount of combustion in a shorter time period. I believe that any process/ component that can encourage a faster flame or come closer to a more complete combustion will yield a higher efficiency.

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#61
In reply to #59

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/10/2008 8:56 AM

"...any process/component that can encourage a faster flame..."

Well, yes, up to a point - but eventually you turn 'combustion' into 'explosion', and that can be counterproductive...

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#64

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/26/2008 9:29 PM

I am not a mechanic , but I check the directories of all of the companies that attended the show and his company or any of his inventions was not part of The Renewable energy in DC, the only thing that indicate that he was there is the one picture he has on one of his advertizing websites , which it could be staged , if they have a proto type that can be driven or seen some where right now I would go there and take the car for a drive and test my self , then I am welling to buy the product.

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

04/28/2008 10:09 AM

One word: Photoshop

One piece of advice: don't waste your time on that test drive.

One greeting: Welcome aboard!

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#67

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 1:08 AM

Hey guys, I have a friend that attended the display in Miami... So no, it was not photoshopped. They advertised as "Dutchman Enterprises".

Im not so sure about the PICC, and when or if it will be available. But I can speak about the HAFC. I am not a dealer or representative of the HAFC company. But I have been researching Hydrogen on demand for a number of years eg: Stan Meyers, Joe Cell, Magdrive, John Aarons etc... I have built replicas of all these units, and havent even come close to breaking the 50% effeciency barrier...

Untill, I came across the HAFC, it produces 2 litres of hydrogen/oxygen per minute, I use a covalizer in the fuel, but the most important part is the optimizer, (the electronic devise that fools the car into running lean) eagle-research sell a similar product..... These are all well documented and do work....

So I'm not quite sure how the PICC fits into all this, does it work? I dont know. Does it really matter? I really dont think so. The HAFC works, its saving me money...

If it didnt work, I'd send it back...

Dont really understand the witch-hunt thats going on here. It seems quite unfair and ignorant...

I did read that the PICC would cost in the region of 3000USD though!!! lol

But there are reports of a company in India that have produced something similar and will be launching their product this Summer (apparently it can equal and even better the PICC claims)

To be honest, I think Dutchman Enterprises are being very slow about launching this PICC.. Its hard reading I know, but I think i made my point :-)

Feen........

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 9:36 AM

"...apparently it can equal and even better the PICC claims..."

Heck, even I can better their claims. But can they back their claims up with reality? I don't see it as a "witch hunt" to expose apparent scam artists...

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#69
In reply to #68

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 11:35 AM

Realistically, the PICC is not in production, so I cant comment if its real or not. All I know is I didn't pay for it. I just purchased the HAFC and it works. So I just don't see this "apparent scam". Its not clear to me.

Ok the HAFC is very expensive. But if one was to go and buy each product seperatly, it doesn't long add up to 1000 dollars!!! And if you have a problem, their technical support is second to none. They actually know their stuff!!! It aint a business run from the back of a van....

I have dedicated the last few years on HOD and spent a small fortune. Like james Hunt (plasma Induction) and Jerry Woodall are doing great for the industry, we should just help them along ya know!!!!

Btw, is it ok to register on this forum? I am an architectural engineer and sound engineer...... :-)

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 12:00 PM

Oh, gosh yes! My bad, I usually ask "guests" to consider registering, there are too many guests to keep track of! And you don't even need to be an engineer - I am an environmental biologist, for example...

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#73
In reply to #69

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 12:41 PM

you are supposed to architectural engineer not chemical or electrial or even Mechanical ENG , what is exactly you are trying to prove , no one has offered an actual working car to test drive and see for your self , and the cost is 1040 dollars as I spoke to one of here dealer. the first person who can offer me a working example for me to drive , I would buy his whole car not Just the Kit.

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#71
In reply to #67

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 12:31 PM

That was supposed to Be in DC not Miami

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 12:40 PM

Welcome back, large joe! Are you indicating suspicion here perchance?

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#74
In reply to #72

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 12:50 PM

Why does this form allows non members to participate ?

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#75
In reply to #74

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 1:16 PM

Oh, I think the idea is for some folks to ask a question, get a good answer, and hopefully come back and register as a member. It's a lot friendlier to some people to not feel pressured into "joining" a group, at least as an experimental basis. I'm sure there are those who misuse the privlege somewhat, but if they get too annoying, I think there's a way for the sysadmin to block them. It's very seldom been a problem in my experience. And, heck, some of the very best posts I've read were by "Guest"!

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#76
In reply to #67

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 1:34 PM

Dont really understand the witch-hunt thats going on here.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that Dennis Lee, the guy behind the HAFC and PICC, is a witch. He is a crook, who has done jail time for fraud: that is a matter of public record.

The EPA has tested many such devices, and if Lee's claims are true, then he could establish some credibility by getting his device tested by the EPA. He has not done so.

He could also establish credibility by putting plausible claims on his websites. Suggesting that 20 percent of the fuel comes out of an engine unburned is patently false: 99% is burned in the engine, and that last percent (typically only part of 1 percent) is engineered-in to allow the catalytic converter to operate properly. If you doubt any of this, then look in the Bosch Automotive handbook, which virtually every automotive engineer possesses.

You write:

but the most important part is the optimizer, (the electronic devise that fools the car into running lean) eagle-research sell a similar product..... These are all well documented and do work....

1. Leaning the fuel ratio causes NOx emissions to increase, and is illegal. (Also it makes drivability poor, and reduces power.)

2. If it is the "most important part" and it is $2 worth of circuitry, then why the $1000 price?

3. If "these are all well documented and do work", then give links to that documented research by independent recognized test labs.

... otherwise we can only assume that you are actively participating in the scam, yourself.

You write:

I have built replicas of all these units, and havent even come close to breaking the 50% effeciency barrier...

Not one of these has been demonstrated to work to any independent test lab. The notion that they could work is nonsensical: In a perfect world the most energy you could hope to get out of hydrogen is equal to the energy that goes into splitting the water. This is a very basic chemical fact. So cars that are claimed to "run on water" cannot actually do so. The obvious support for that fact is found on our roads: there are no such cars.

In the real world, energy conversions are not 100% efficient. Even if you simply want to power electrolysis alone with the energy from burning the output, you could not. 75% for the electrolysis would be doing well, and 50% in an expensive fuel cell (a real fuel cell, not the fake fuel cell of HAFC fame) is about right. So, putting the output back into the input, you'd find that you only have 37.5% of the energy required to run the electrolysis: so the process that is supposed to be supplying fuel is operating at a huge net loss. It cannot come remotely close to sustaining itself -- let alone producing enough extra fuel to run a car. The idea that a car can be made to run on water (using the methods of the cranks you mentioned) is patently idiotic.

Why on earth would you build replicas of all of these units? Were you working for the FBI and trying to bring these people to justice, trying to prove their claims false? Might it not have been easier and far cheaper to check with a high school chemistry teacher?

Or perhaps you are trying to soften up the audience, and get them thinking that these other scams also work... and that, by extension, yours works too? Odd that as a guest, you just "happened" to show up on this thread to promote the HAFC. Your scam time might be better spent on other sites: engineers are not known to be particulary gullible.

Anxiously awaiting your documented test results -- and not merely more claims that appear fraudulent.

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#77
In reply to #76

Re: PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter

05/08/2008 1:40 PM

Thank you sir - truly a Good Answer! (so voted)

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