Login | Register

Previous in Forum: Dam Inspection   Next in Forum: Degreasing Motor Oil from PE
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







13 comments
Associate

Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 39
Good Answers: 1

Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/25/2008 1:14 PM

There is an email going around the web, and I think this 'expert' has jumped to some unscientific conclusions. This seems like a good challenge question, but then again I can't return in a week with the answers. Hope you guys can help with this.

Here it is:

TIPS ON PUMPING GAS

I don't know what you guys are paying for gasoline.... but here in California we are also paying higher, up to $3.50 per gallon. But my line of work is in petroleum for about 31 years now, so here are some tricks to get more of your money's worth for every gallon..

Here at the Kinder Morgan Pipeline where I work in San Jose , CA we deliver about 4 million gallons in a 24-hour period thru the pipeline. One day is diesel the next day is jet fuel, and gasoline, regular and premium grades. We have 34-storage tanks here with a total capacity of 16,800,000 gallons.

1. Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when the ground temperature is still cold. Remember that all service stations have their storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground the more dense the gasoline, when it gets warmer gasoline expands, so buying in the afternoon or in the evening....your gallon is not exactly a gallon. In the petroleum business, the specific gravity and the temperature of the gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, ethanol and other petroleum products plays an important role.

A 1-degree rise in temperature is a big deal for this business. But the service stations do not have temperature compensation at the pumps.

2. When you're filling up do not squeeze the trigger of the nozzle to a fast mode. If you look you will see that the trigger has three (3)stages: low, middle, and high. In slow mode you should be pumping on low speed, thereby minimizing the vapors that are created while you are pumping. All hoses at the pump have a vapor return. If you are pumping on the fast rate, some other liquid that goes to your tank becomes vapor. Those vapors are being sucked up and back into the underground storage tank so you're getting less worth for your money.

3. One of the most important tips is to fill up when your gas tank is HALF FULL or HALF EMPTY. The reason for this is, the more gas you have in your tank the less air occupying its empty space. Gasoline evaporates faster than you can imagine. Gasoline storage tanks have an internal floating roof. This roof serves as zero clearance between the gas and the atmosphere, so it minimizes the evaporation. Unlike service stations, here where I work, every truck that we load is temperature compensated so that every gallon is actually the exact amount.

4. Another reminder, if there is a gasoline truck pumping into the storage tanks when you stop to buy gas, DO NOT fill up--most likely the gasoline is being stirred up as the gas is being delivered, and you might pick up some f the dirt that normally settles on the bottom. Hope this will help you get the most value for your money.

DO SHARE THESE TIPS WITH OTHERS!

My thoughts are that:

1. The ground temperature doesn't change significantly;

2. There could be some truth to the vapor concentration of faster delivered fuel being wasted in the return line, but is the difference worth the extra time?

3. Traveling with an average of 3/4 full tank is just more weight to haul around and

4. The filter in line with the hose should take care of this stirred up crud concern.

I am not an expert, though. What do you think?

Send to a friend Digg this Add to del.icio.us
Pathfinder Tags: economy hoax challenge question
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
Lead Editor
United States - Member - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Popular Science - Paleontology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1907
Good Answers: 30
#1

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/25/2008 1:24 PM

According to snopes.com, the mailer does contain some truth, but the suggested tips will not provide much, if any, benefit.

Associate

Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 39
Good Answers: 1
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/25/2008 1:53 PM

Thanks.

I did a Google search on the phrase "Here at the Kinder Morgan Pipeline where I work " to see if any of the hoax reporting sites found this, and none came back in the response. Apparently someone changed the wording on the copy I received. Although the Snopes response was not quite the scientific analysis I would find on CR4, a link to it will be sufficient to use as a reply to the one who sent me the email, as is my custom.

Curtis

Guru
Popular Science - Evolution - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: The 'Space Coast', USA
Posts: 2296
Good Answers: 138
#3

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/25/2008 2:37 PM

Even if true, what do you imagine the worst case waste would be? 10%? Not likely. Maybe 1%? Not likely. How much does the underground tank vary? We all hear about how the ground stays a steady 55° How about 0.1%? That's probably close, so let's go with that.

So, I spend $40.00 a week to fill up my car. Am I excited to save 4 cents a week on my budget?

I can't even buy penny candy for that. I wouldn't even stoop over to pick that up if I saw 4 pennies on the ground.

Even if it was 10 times that, 40 cents a week is insignificant.

Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 5393
Good Answers: 52
#5
In reply to #3

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/26/2008 12:36 AM

Try your math at this:

I use about 250,000 gallons of diesel per year. Some retailers heat the fuel to 75°, others pump at about 45°.

A gallon at about 45° is about 8lbs; at 75° is about 7.4lbs..

How much fuel can I save if at 45°?

__________________
"In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists."Eric Hoffer"
Active Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Duluth(God lives around here)
Posts: 15
Good Answers: 1
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/26/2008 6:19 AM

Hauling freight is haulin weight!

Freight Hauled

250000@ 45d. = 1,850,000. weight hauled 1 year

250000@ 75d.= 2,000,000 weight hauled 1 year

Move North!

Nuff said

Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 793
Good Answers: 9
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/26/2008 7:47 AM

wow, that's rather amazing. Why would a retailer heat diesel to 75F? And how do they get the temperarture to 45F?

The only way to do the latter is to have temperature controlled tanks or heat / cool the fuel going into the pump.

I'm going to have to look at this, it's rather amazing to consider the implications.

And yeah, I would avoid those 75F pumps....

__________________
Eric
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 5393
Good Answers: 52
#12
In reply to #8

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/29/2008 4:37 PM

Shhh....the large vendors keep 1-3000 gallons of hot water constantly for showers and...

__________________
"In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists."Eric Hoffer"
Off Topic (Score 5)
Guest
#10
In reply to #3

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/26/2008 8:02 AM

You must be rich!

Off Topic (Score 5)
Guest
#4

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/25/2008 9:01 PM

I think this is a sound information all you have to do is do the math look up the Specify density for Gas.. plug it into thermal efficiency formula and see if there is a true to this ...... do the math

Here are few things we have to find :

  1. What is the flow rate of gas station pump?
  2. What is the Specify gravity
  3. Now we can guess the temp
  4. Then calculate the η for gas
  5. there is so much we can calculate to verify this claim
2
Guest
#7

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/26/2008 6:59 AM

Having worked in the petrol station service industry for many years I can confirm most of the facts given are true.

Vapour recovery, (removing petrol vapour from your tank as you fill) does reduce the amount of fuel you have bought. We commissioned one of the first filling stations with vapour recovery, (installed mainly to passify local residents who didn't want the smell of petrol) after four weeks we switched the vapour recovery off to see if the locals would notice the difference. They didn't but surprisingly the tank gauge leak alarms went off on all tanks because they weren't getting the input from the condensed fuel vapour and so showed a loss!

We had one operator who had a couple of hundred filling stations, he always made fuel deliveries in the hottest part of the day and within hours we had to attend to see where several gallons of fuel had gone to. The site operator had dipped the underground tank before and after the delivery and dipped the road tanker before the drop but immediately noticed that the underground tank dip didn't show the same amount of fuel after the delivery. The loss was due to cooling when the warm delivered fuel mixed with the cold product in the ground. The fuel in the underground tank will continue to shrink in volume for a few hours after a delivery so keep your eyes open when looking to fill up your car.

'Splash fills', where the fuel hits the fuel in the underground tank pushing a pipe full of air immediately stirs up the sediment and causes masses of bubbles in the tank which turn to vapour. You can actually see the vapour pouring out of the vent stack when this happens so the same thing obviously occurs in your car tank.

Not opening the nozzle fully takes longer but does give you more fuel! When carrying out measure checks on the pumps we always did fast and slow 40 litre measures. Some flow meters leak a tiny amount of fuel past the piston under pressure so a slow flow gives the proper measure of fuel and a small bit of leakage. If you open the nozzle to full flow the meter seals are under minimum pressure so you get exact measure and the rush of fuel into your petrol tank will raise maximum amounts of vapour which will escape into the atmosphere or be sucked back to the underground tank by the vapour recovery system - 'thank-you very much'. It usually pays to always use the pumps nearest the kiosk. They get most useage so their meter seals wear fastest.

Flow meters are set at exact measure then a seal is fitted to stop any tampering with the setting. Unfortunately some meters then wear in and start to give reduced measures after a few weeks. Other meters will start to give fuel away after a few weeks so it pays to shop arround and note where you get the best volume/mileage results. The difference between meters can be as much as 5 litres on a full tank!

Not many people are aware that there are Winter and Summer grade fuels. The difference can be sufficient to prevent the Winter unleaded fuel being pumped from the underground tank in warm weather. Believe me this has happened. We tried everything from a replacement petrol pump to fitting temporary above-ground suction pipes without success. Finally we dropped a few thousand gallons of Summer grade unleaded into the tank and the tanker was then able to extract the mix and take it away for treatment. In very hot weather when pipes run just below the forecourt surface the fuel can cavitate and comes out of the nozzle in fits and starts. The air separator in the pump should remove the gas but might let some through.

Another legal 'tweak' I have seen is with blended fuels. Usually the 2* and 4* fuels, when mixed 50/50% give a legal octane rated 3*. If the 4* fuel has a high octane level then you can alter the mix to give as much as 75% of 2* and still stay legal!

In Conclusion:

Petrol is very volatile and will evaporate away rapidly especially if you heat it or stir it up, the rate of loss will increase dramatically. So think carefully when you handle it - its too valuable to waste.

Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 793
Good Answers: 9
#9
In reply to #7

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/26/2008 7:54 AM

I had thought that my Toyota was a pain in the butt as the filler neck won't allow me to run the pump at full speed. Now it seems the silly thing is saving me money! Live and learn.

I wonder if they guys from Toyota who designed this thing know what you've posted?

__________________
Eric
Guest
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

03/26/2008 8:39 AM

The size of the filler neck was originally to stop you putting leaded fuel into a car with catalytic converter - the lead destroys the cat within a few miles. The large nozzle spouts are for leaded petrol, (4*) and Diesel and the small spouts are for Unleaded.

Another problem with filler necks on some cars is they can cause the nozzle to keep cutting off. If you look carefully at the nozzle spout you will see a small hole at the side of the main orifice. This is a vacuum detector which will trip the nozzle lever if it gets blocked by fuel ie when the tank is full. Some cars are fitted with plastic pipes between neck and tank which have a rough moulded inner surface - the surface causes the fuel to splash back onto the spout which then trips the detector. The only way to get an unbroken fill is to slow down the flow rate, (this also makes the nozzle slightly less sensitive as the rate of flow creates a vacuum on one side of a diaphram). We used to get the most complaints from small Fiat owners.

Guest
#13

Re: Tips on Pumping gasoline... Facts or Hoax?

07/20/2008 9:59 PM

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/165130

13 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Hero (1), BaldSprinter (1), bwire (2), ca1ic0cat (2), Chris Leonard (1), Guest (5), WhiteHorse (1)

Previous in Forum: Dam Inspection   Next in Forum: Degreasing Motor Oil from PE
You might be interested in: Storage Tanks and Process Tanks, Power Transformers, Energy Production, Mines and Exploration Services