When laptop inherent engineering faults meet the law

Thanks Del.

I have actually already sent them a strongly-worded letter along the lines you mentioned (over two weeks ago) and they have not replied.

Can you explainthe "burn in period"?

Burn in period ..
Is when a UUT (unit under test) is left running continuously for a time to test it and show up the 'infant mortality' faults... (sometimes at elevated temperature or load).

Usual failure modes, result in the 'bath tub curve' high initial failures (infant mortality) then a long period of reliability...then wear out/old age failures.... that's why extended warranties are a rip off... after the first 6months/year all the infant mortality faults have shown up...so they get you paying extra when the equipment will (statistically speaking) be reliable anyway!

So a burn in period will test it and show up the infant mortality problem on the mother board....
Years ago when I was a test hand we built monitors which had 72hr burn in at 30degrees C.

Del

Thanks again Del. I understand now and, should I return it to them rather than pursue them through the courts, I will ask for a Burn in Period.

Joe

#7

Keep that in you bag of tricks for if and when litigation seems unavoidable. Remember, they are keeping you off balance with silence. You should do the same as regards to bluffs in word only.

#4

Joe, Please, don't. And simply think of the Court as your remedy of last resort, but an available remedy nonetheless.

No offense meant, del.

I have just received an email from eastcomputers.co.uk saying that they are returning the repaired laptop, inspite of the fact that the woman I spoke to in the returns team said that they would refund my money because it had failed on me three times and I had lost confidence in the machine, having purchased a replacement Dell.

I now find out that they are claiming that a SOFTWARE problem caused the total failure of the machine. Let me just clarify the position - I received the repaired laptop after the second breakdown and simply put it on the table and switched it on. I did not use it at all. when I went in after the second or third day, it was dead. I mean "dead". No lights, no response whatsoever from the computer. With the battery in or out, with the power lead in or out. Nothing.

My question in this: can this happen just because of a software fault? And, if so, what might that software fault be?

Thanks in advance.

Joe

How are they shipping or delivering? Do all in your power refuse shipment or to not be available to sign for same. Instruct anyone else not to sign for the item. It they deliver in the delivery van, don't open door to them. If by mail (or otherwise) do not open or disturb parcel in any way...including any envelope or plastic package with shipping bill and such that might be affixed to the parcel.

More to follow about your software question...for what it's worth.

Thanks for that. I will refuse receipt.

Not a problem. How will you follow up?

CowAnon: I was just in the process of completing your response form that you kindly sent to me and which I did not notice until an hour ago when I received a phonecall from the delightful Natasha at easycomputers.co.uk.

She said that she is very sorry that the engineer wrongly sent the laptop back to me. She is very sorry that Nichola give me a cock and bull story about software yesterday. She is very sorry that she was too busy to take my call yesterday and that she did not have time to talk to Nicola about my case before Nicola butted in. She is also very sorry that they have sent it to the wrong address!

She is emailing the courier and asking them to return it immediately to her at easycomputers. She will then push for a replacement from Acer and then give me a full refund.

We will wait to see developments and I will keep you in touch.

Once again, thanks for everything. You really are amazing in the amount of support you have given and I am proud to be a contributor to CR4 when people like you are "on board".

Joe

Thank you so much for the kind words, Joe. There is so much that your experience reveals, some of which I included in that chart, and other of which I've been jotting down, waiting for the right moment to post if necessary. But now, it evidently (keeping fingers crossed) won't be necessary...unless people want to see...see how the problems you have encountered are not so much caused by ineptitude, ill-will or duplicity, but by the natural workings of organizational "systems"; and how one can "cut through the bull" by, both: knowing what's important and what's immaterial; and knowing what's really going on "behind the curtain" that is causing such "confoundment" and trepidation on the customer's side. (The purpose of the chart, as you perhaps sensed, was to quickly get a handle on all aspects of your situation in order to make advise most appropriate to circumstances. As it turned out, events overtook us, and the best that could be offered was, in effect: keep that laptop out of your lap.)

Here is one case in point as to things important and things tangential—a case in point that goes to the "heart of the bull," which I sensed from the moment I offered to help you get "disentangled." At that time, the talk was mostly of legal rights and legal/technical evidence and argumentation pros and cons, as if it was already a foregone conclusion you would have no option short of litigation—you know..."Sue the bastards." But none of these musings, well-meaning and valid in their own right though they were, really got to the central, most important (legal) aspect of your "case," which (now I can reveal it) was: possession...Yes, that simple little common law construct. As long as possession could be thrust upon you, or you remained willing to accept it, your prospect for getting satisfaction quickly by administrative or any other non-protracted means (such as appealing to your creditor or [in the case of debit card] your banker, or anyone else) was essentially a non-starter. On the other hand, so long as the merchant was in possession, both, of your money and the promised consideration (the laptop)...then it becomes a case....well, let me just say, the merchant then has no legal grounds for continuing to keep the money...and everyone knows it (or is well advised to know it). Such would be a reason, for example, that a creditor (in the US and probably UK as well) would cease standing on dispute rules and immediately grant a provisional credit and "go after" the merchant to explain or relent.

You can also see also how "possession" was the thing that turned your laptop into a kind of hot potato that no one (including you after so advised) wanted to be caught holding (caught possessing) last—and how it continues to be so but, hopefully, with you safely out of the "let's play hot potato" circle. Therein lay the reason that you began seeing attempts (by everyone) to toss the potato to someone else, whether it be from mfr to merchant, merchant to mfr, or (ideally) from everyone to you. On the other side of the curtain, everyone would be happy so long as it was you (the anonymous customer) who (figuratively speaking) was being skewered and held to the flame...until you found your own skewer.

But what about nice Natasha and mean ol' Nicole? And "our" mysterious, all-knowing, all seeing "engineer"? Are these two ladies really opposites, really good and evil, as it seems? Probably not...they each just have their own part to play...and they are quite likely friends! But, watching their "MO's (each of their modus operandi)" provides yet another lesson for swimming among "customer disposal" departments (by whatever euphemism) and other org sharks. Judging by your description, here we have Natasha telling you what she has done or will endeavor to do; we have Nicole saying what "we" can or (mostly) cannot do. Whenever a Merchant Operative (get the connection?....MO?) (and just about any other individual as well) begins referring to him/herself as "we," a warning light should go off: "I'm about to be skewered." The earlier one detects this, the better one can be prepared, to beat a retreat or stay ahead of the game. (Sometimes I get devious pleasure in such situations by thanking the MO for telling me what "you all" will do; and then asking what "you" will do. After the long pause and sometimes hemming and hawing, and spoken or unspoken, the answer usually boils down to: nothing (as in nothing good).

Well, that's all for now. All of us, no doubt, will be waiting with 'bated breath for your updates. In the meantime, don't rest too easy—don't assume things can't still go awry—until the money lands back in your account.

PS: Hopefully, later on, you can tell me about your experience with your new Dell... for when it comes time for me to start shopping a new laptop/notebook?

I'll keep you up to date.

Joe

Joe! Good God, man!!! Snap out of it!!! You're being used as a puppet by a frustrated insect!!!

Not sure I follow you on this one, vermin. Explain please. I'm having a slow brain day.

#2, #3

However, had every unit sold been burned in, you would have paid much more for the unit. At commercial grade, burn in is not done on more than a sample of production units. And, believe it or not, it's not really to help purchasers, but to qualify supply and production chain. At the front door, burn-in statistics can also serve: to set/validate limited warranty policy; and to establish or qualify merchant return policy agreements. For these reason—and the probable incredulity of any person you might ask—is quite unlikely such information would be released to any private citizen/subject, or done on an as demanded basis—especially to a potential legal disputant.

#1. Figuratively speaking, perhaps. But the law is the only thing relevant in order to get the satisfaction you seek....which is return of your money...since you already replaced the computer with the Dell.

The part about the burn-in documentation will only fall on uninformed, hence deaf ears. The point is, you no longer need or want the computer, repaired of exchanged.

CowAnon: I can NEVER trust this laptop. Who would? All I want is my money back or another model from a reputable company. I will then simply have to sell it to recoup some money because of the Dell I bought with an expensive ongoing monthly-paid warranty from PCWorld.

I don't blame you; I wouldn't either. Dell is a good machine with good reputation for service and customer support. By sure to keep all the contact numbers and identifying numbers in a safe place where you can get to them easily.

Thanks again CowAnon. I'll hang on in there...

Just to put in a word in favour of Acer - I've had a 202T for about 4 or 5 years - it was "pre-owned" - two or three years old when I got it. The people who re-sold it to me did a crap job vis-a-vis restoring it to a decent state, but it was all software stuff - I just cleaned it all up, and it's been fine. It runs Windows ME, and the HD is only 4GB. The lid hinge started falling apart, so I bit the bullet & went out & got an Acer 4230 to replace it.

I've now got the old heap - handy for manky jobs, where I may have to leave it for a day or two, the new thing (which is higher spec than my desktop M/C), and the desktop job - all on wireless n'work.

I've had no problems with Acer.

I'd ask laptopsdirect.co.uk if I could exchange it for a different make or model with comparable features/price, and ask for the burn-in period also. If they will only exchange for a different unit of the same model, make sure they send one with a different serial number. If you don't have need for a secondary computer, donate it to charity for a tax deduction.

The 3Doug Benevolence Association for Underprivileged Drafters (BAUD) can always use an extra laptop.

#6

As stated elsewhere, time is up for a substitute. You already paid twice for only one that works: the Dell

Good.

#8

And keep it simple and direct. Time, including time spent on fancy strategy, plays into the hands of your adversary.

http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews61649.html

interesting reading but may upset you if you have an ongoing issue with them so read at own risk

case491: MY GOD!! I left a damning review, not that it would do any good. But I just hope they don't go bust before I sue them for my money back.

Nowadays I try to do as much research as is possible over the internet. I nearly always wish I did when I hadn't.

I suppose we have to learn one day, I bought a Mercedes van 2 years ago and I was happy to get rid of it beginning of this year with 4000 loss. What a nightmare. If I had done my research for that one, I had never chosen that type of van either.

Good luck with your predicament, hope you get something back.

Mercedes van, that must be just about the worst German car ever made, in Germany (where they LOVE Mercedes) you cannot give one in part exchange, at least not for anywhere near the price it should reach......

They "Star" often in the used car mags here......as what NOT to buy!!!

Mercedes has had several models over the last 15 years that you should not touch with a barge pole, not just the Vaneos.....

JJ: Good advice. Thanks. I will contact Acer and tell them that their reputation is getting a slating on the internet and ask them if they ARE selling returned goods to laptopsdirect.co.uk.

I will keep you informed.

JB

If they are, they are foul of the law. They should tell you it deals with "A" grade electricals if they do.

I also noticed that Acer does their own "direct" website. Seems funny to me to sell normall stuff to another company when you sell your own also direct on the web.

It all sounds dodgy to me and I am happy now I never bought one from them. I almost did when I saw all those big advert lorries on the side of the M6 motorway.

#28

And they are going to: (1) Listen to such a tirade? And (2) answer your inquest?

Yes to the first, NO to the second. They will tell you to take up the issue with laptopsdot.... You could try asking (with persistence) Acer to intercede with the reseller though. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But be prepared for disappointment.

#26

Jack makes some good point, but creditor here have really tightened up and now apply much more stringent requirements for a dispute status and return credit and/or back charge. Based on the travails you have described, it would be my guess you have gone past the time period allowed for dispute of charge—in US, generally 60 days from first billing. There is an alternative option I will tell about elsewhere.

There is no legal basis, so far for any assertion of fraud. It's not an avenue to pursue because the burden to prove would be yours.

#21

As often as not, damning reviews are met with derision by other readers. But, so long as you didn't give actual name and personally identifying info, you were able to blow off steam before you take them on in earnest. Just hope it didn't bring such satisfaction that you now feel they have earned your money.

I am glad on this point alone to be living in Germany. German law requires that the company either give you a refund or replace the Laptop completely, with a different model of at least the same or better class.....

Which does not help you in the slightest.....

I have had problems with getting a new lamp for my slides scanner from Acer, they simply do not make it anymore (the company is now called BenQ here in Germany for such items). I will never every buy again from any company with either the name BenQ or Acer, no matter how good the products might generally be.

For business, I would ONLY buy Toshiba, expensive but reliable and no matter how old it gets, spare parts are always available!!!! Service from Toshiba (at least here) if ever needed, is fantastic.....

We used to buy up to 100 laptops a year, one year we bought from a cheaper supplier, I forget the name, a disaster!!! Next batch came from Toshiba again!!!

Sell it as possibly defect on ebay, put it up as a tax loss on your company and buy something good!!!

You cannot ever rely on it, so therefore it is totally useless, even if it seems to work!!!

By the way, store your data also (as well as!! and keep it updated) on an external USB hard disk, that way you can always get at your data even if the laptop dies. It is common sense to do that with any make of PC or laptop!!!

The likelihood of both dying together is remote!!

What you are doing is tempting the Gods too much!!! Data backup is ALWAYS needed!!!!

Good !

More people should learn to do the same.....

I will never every buy again from any company with either the name BenQ or Acer, no matter how good the products might generally be.

#13

Good advise...to be wary of any company whose name indicates a sole purpose of getting first listing in phone book or other directory!

Good point.

Some companies do not realize that few customers want to take the chance of being shafted twice......!!!

CEOs come and go and generally a CEO just wants good figures while he is in the hot seat and what comes later does not interest him, as he is already off to pastures new....

Had the same problem!

I was directed by Tech Support to remove the battery and hold the on button for several min. Did this and it worked, not the answer but may get you out of trouble in a pinch.

Absolutly use an external hard drive if you use this LT, sooner or later the problem will get worse.

Williebinger: Tried it. Didn't work. But thanks anyway.

#19

Joe did you try what willie suggests? So that you now have two working computers? If it doesn't work, then don't do any more to fix it. Also, tell no one if you open the machine and/or attempt any repair work, hardware of software, on you own. You want the breach of warranty as your trump card, not their's.

(generally, customer service will never recommend any repair to hardware. If they do, ask for assurance in writing (email if not in person) that warranty will not be affected.)

CowAnon: I sent a very stiff letter to both Acer and laptopsdirect and all I received today was a standard email saying from Acer saying that they had opened a case number and that i should return the laptop for repair!!!

It's like they didn;t even read my letter. I am pulling my hair out...

Don't do the pulling thing. Rest assured in the knowledge that you are establishing a written record of dispute. and Companies never do things quickly. And remember, companies deal with unhappy customers all day long every day. They are not going to "feel your pain" any more than they would feel everone else's pain. As to doing the return, sit on it for just a little a while...make excuses if anyone presses you. Also explain that you're so exasperated (and have fallen so far behind, what with this computer problem) that you need to catch things up as well as think over what you should do next. (Your planting a seed of concern in their minds that you might not "play ball" by just their rules.) If you're only conversing by email, invite Acer to contact you by phone, or give a toll free number so you can contact them. Personalizing the issue can be much better than blind emails. Hang in there. I'm trying to get my first reply formatted so CR4 will keep it looking like it should. Should have it sometime within next day (12-24 hours).

Can help you towards possible un-entanglement, but first needs to know:

Did you pay electronically using credit (card, line of credit, etc)?

Does UK have consumer protection or fair credit statutes such as in US?

(By entanglement is meant, primarily, the expressed warrantly...have you read it thoroughly? Also, are you tracking expenses, including "consequentials," like cost differential for the Dell, and tangible loss of productivity incurred to get satisfaction? You should be.)

Will await....

CowAnon: thanks. I paid by Maestro/Switch card. I have not read the warranty in detail but will do now you have mentioned it. I believe that The Sale of Goods Act covers me (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?r.l1=1073861169&r.l3=1074027367&type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073792524&r.l2=1074400662&r.s=sc).

I have a list of all my consequentials.

I have read some terrible reviews of this company since buying the laptop and I think the only way I can go is via the Courts. What do you think?

I would still go direct as they may be tempted into pulling the plug themselves if their financial status is less than good at this moment. If they are still trading healthily you might get lucky. If they are already on the way down they could just stall you and you will be lumped with all the rest in the receivers listings.

Be quick and use the correct lingo like Del and others have said. Mention your rights and be business like. Good luck.

Thanks Case. I have fired off a strong email and I will contact them tomorrow by phone, then again by letter and see what happens. My suspicion is that they will fob me off with lots of nonsense. I will keep you informed.

Power to the people!

Carbon Copy your e-mails back to you. Send 2 letters. Place one in with a request for signature and one without. If you get the 'signature' envelope back, they're avoiding you.

Orpheuse

Orpheuse: Will do. Thanks.

Joe, you said: Battery is charged and adapter is functioning.

When it failed, was it running on adapter? Did you return the adapter along with the machine?

Are, both, the adapter and your outlet polarized and grounded?

Technically, the failure mode and repair pattern you describe sounds like repeated failure due to the same stress...a hardware stress... possibly electrical power. Also, does the laptop have any kind of reset button. When it fails, do you wait for cool-down and try to power up again?

Some electronic devises will not function correctly without proper ground. I'd test the outlet to make sure it's okay, or switch to a known good outlet in the house.

CowAnon:

"When it failed, was it running on adapter? Did you return the adapter along with the machine?" I recall it was on adapter at least twice - not sure about the first time though, possibly on battery. Did not return adapter.

"Are, both, the adapter and your outlet polarized and grounded?"

Yes. Three different houses it has failed in as well.

"does the laptop have any kind of reset button. When it fails, do you wait for cool-down and try to power up again?" Yes but it doesn't work and yes I waited for hours and days the first and the last times.

Hope that helps.

Joe

Joe,

Hang in there, we are working on the problem. We will find a solution - it's just a really odd problem and Dell has always been difficult but, as they say in the I Ching, Persaverence Furthers.

/Orpheuse

Orpheuse: That's great. But you did mean to say Acer didn;t you, not Dell?

Joe's last message: I have just received an email from eastcomputers.co.uk saying that they are returning the repaired laptop, in spite of the fact that the woman I spoke to in the returns team said that they would refund my money because it had failed on me three times and I had lost confidence in the machine, having purchased a replacement Dell.

I now find out that they are claiming that a SOFTWARE problem caused the total failure of the machine. Let me just clarify the position - I received the repaired laptop after the second breakdown and simply put it on the table and switched it on. I did not use it at all. when I went in after the second or third day, it was dead. I mean "dead". No lights, no response whatsoever from the computer. With the battery in or out, with the power lead in or out. Nothing.

My question in this: can this happen just because of a software fault? And, if so, what might that software fault be?

Response:

Joe, did you mean beastcomputers.co.uk? Eastcomputers.co.uk does not return any response when called on the Web. Eastcomputers.com is in Arizona, USA. Beastcomputers.co.uk appears to be a marketing & fulfillment enterprise specializing in gaming laptops. (If, indeed, it was a gaming laptop you ordered, then your Acer would be nearer the lower to lower middle price range, judging by the price you reported...and which was advertised by laptopsdirect.co.uk which, by all evidence, is the company that shipped or delivered your unit originally (and has acted as possible repair depot or transfer agent since then?).

Now, it seems, you find yourself in three-party transaction amongst you, yourself, and (b?)eastcomputers.co.uk (as 1st & 2nd parties) and laptopsdirect.co.uk; and that you are receiving conflicting representations respecting whether or not you will receive the refund. You also led us to understand that the laptop remained in your possession following the second of two repairs (and the third failure) under warranty. However, your latest message here seems to indicated that the computer was returned for warranty service the third time, and that it has been (even as we have been speaking) in possession by the vendor or repair facility (or, perhaps, the shipping consignee), pending shipment or delivery to you. Can you see how this might lead us here to sense we are chasing a moving target? And also why it was that I provided you the status/tracking chart to keep yours and our understandings straight, and in sync?

Additionally, for lack of clearly worded information, I found myself stymied when trying to update my copy of the status chart I provided you. Permit me to demonstrate based on your last posting.

You mentioned that the "woman I spoke to in the returns team" (of some company)promised one thing (a refund); and that...someone else (at (b?)eastcomputers.co.uk) has stated (to the effect) that there will be no refund. This "team" you speak of, whose team is it? laptopdirects? or (b?)eastcomputer's? (It appears you are, either, being whipsawed between vendor and supplier, or are being soft-soaped either by (b?)eastcomputers.co (which is apparently the vendor with which you originally did business), or by both. Please clarify as best you are able.

You stated that, after the second warranty repair turnaround, you "went in" after the second or third day to find it "dead" and unresponsive. Does this mean you unpacked it and left it turned on (presumably connected to power adapter) for days? Or did you mean that, finding it inoperative, you took it in (into somewhere) for warranty repair (& or to complain), at which point it was confirmed to be dead and unresponsive? And that the unit has been there...until you received the call notifying you it had been fixed...? And that you should await delivery? Or that you should come pick it up? Please clarify these points as well.

Finally, about your technical question—how can the software be "at fault"? Apart from telling you that, yes, it can (and that it could be, but is not necessarily, something as simple as OS power settings)—and apart from telling you, that without having the unit in possession in order to reverse engineer to the failure there would be no way for anyone (out here) to say how—it remains somewhat a mystery as to why these technical aspects would be of any concern, given your statements that you want to (indeed, are compelled to) return the unit for refund. I indicated to you elsewhere how it is, that attempting to refute the vendor's repair claims is not in your best interest—if you did not read column 3 of the chart I provided you, I recommend you go to your CR4 mailbox (click your logged-in avatar or nickname, then the Check Your Mailbox tab) and re-read it.

On the other hand, because you seem to persist in questioning the veracity of claimed repairs, I'm beginning to sense a kind of (how shall I say)...two-edged buyer's remorse on your part: you're having (justifiable) 2nd thoughts about buying the Acer laptop; but you have also grown attached to it and are having...3rd thoughts at the prospect of returning it and not having it. If that is the case (and if it is within your means to have two laptops—say, one for gaming and one for "other"), then you might consider keeping the Acer along with the Dell. You will continue to have the 3-year warranty on the Acer, so you will have enjoyment for about the normal laptop expected lifetime; and your investment in the Acer it is not really all that much. If you do decide to keep the Acer, I would advise you to get assurance (a letter or otherwise in writing, if possible) that the Acer warranty will be extended to cover the period since purchase during which the unit has been in warranty service and unavailable to you for enjoyment.

I reiterate what I said earlier today: If you want the refund, do what you can to avoid taking delivery; and if delivery is somehow thrust upon you, to not open any packaging...no matter how tempted you might be. Check back here, first.

Any questions? Please post.

CowAnon:

Sorry! Result of my carelessness brought about by incandescent rage and too fast fingers...

I meant easycomputers.co.uk (also known as laptopsdirect.co.uk who DID sell it to me).

The computer WAS returned for warranty service the third time only because someone called Natasha in the returns department of easycomputers.co.uk promised me that I would not have to have the laptop back. She asked me to send ALL accessories (Acer carrying bag, mouse, Office CD) so that she could make a full refund once she had had her engineer look at the laptop, confirm that it was not functioning for the third time and then contact Acer to ask them for a replacement machine at which time she would refund me all my money, knowing full well I didn't want a laptop now that I had had to purchase a new and reliable one from PC World (a Dell Inspiron).

They had the laptop picked up within 2 hours and the following morning they emailed me to let me now they had repaired it and it was on its way back to me. Not what she said. She promised on the phone that she would be my port of call and that she would phone me as soon as her engineer had inspected it.

When I phoned after seeing the email. I spoke to a Nicola who refused to put me through to Natasha even though she spent 10 minutes with me on hold while she talked to Natasha and while Natasha was still in the office.

She basically fobbed me off with "it's a software problem so we can't talk further about it". I explained that it was already not fit for purpose even before the third breakdown and that I had already purchased an alternative laptop because I had lost all confidence in the Acer. I also said that I did not believe them when they said that it was a software problem. Three times the laptop had ceased to function in exactly the same way (suddenly dying and with no means of getting a response from it at all), and that it was simply unbelievable that this could have been caused by three different causes. They said the first time it was a new motherboard, the second time that the power supply needed "re-seating" (rubbish!) and the third time it was software related (utter fantasy).

I asked her if I could speak to the engineer. She refused. I asked why Natasha had broken her word that whatever happened I would not get the laptop back and they would put the laptop on a burn-in bench test until such time as it failed again (if, that is, they r=needed to do this in order to prove to Acer that the laptop was crap). She refused to answer, citing the same answer: "it's a software problem so we can't talk any further".

I pointed out that IF it was a software problem AND it was the case that software problems were not covered under the warranty, then WHY did they repair it and HOW did the engineer possibly get it functioning without opening the laptop case when there was totally not response no matter what I tried? Again, same stupid answer from dear Nicola.

I hope that this clarifies things and I am deeply sorry that my haste to get my last message out to you resulted in lack of clarity on my part.

Just to reiterate: I purchased the computer off the web with a Switch card (not credit card) from a supplier of many makes of laptop called laptopsdirect.co.uk. When I received the email confirmation of purchase, the company name was easycomputers.co.uk. All subsequent mailing from them have the latter name along with logos for the former at the bottom of their letter-heading (along with other trading names like directtvs.co.uk, serversdirect.co.uk, acerdirect.co.uk and so on. Acer is the manufacturer from whom, I assume, easycomputers.co.uk (trading as laptopsdirect.co.uk etc) purchase bulk stock.

You said: "You stated that, after the second warranty repair turnaround, you "went in" after the second or third day to find it "dead" and unresponsive. Does this mean you unpacked it and left it turned on (presumably connected to power adapter) for days?" Yes, this is true. This is what I did.

You said: "Or did you mean that, finding it inoperative, you took it in (into somewhere) for warranty repair (& or to complain), at which point it was confirmed to be dead and unresponsive? And that the unit has been there...until you received the call notifying you it had been fixed...? And that you should await delivery? Or that you should come pick it up?" No, this is false. This is not what I did.

You said: "On the other hand, because you seem to persist in questioning the veracity of claimed repairs, I'm beginning to sense a kind of (how shall I say)...two-edged buyer's remorse on your part: you're having (justifiable) 2nd thoughts about buying the Acer laptop; but you have also grown attached to it and are having...3rd thoughts at the prospect of returning it and not having it."

I have not made myself clear (mea culpa). But I will try again: I regret purchasing the Acer. I do not want it under any circumstances. I will never use it again. I want rid of it. I cannot afford to lose nearly £950.00. The laptop is unfit for purpose and I want my money back.

You said: "f you want the refund, do what you can to avoid taking delivery; and if delivery is somehow thrust upon you, to not open any packaging...no matter how tempted you might be. Check back here, first."

I will follow your suggestion to the letter.

Thanks again and sorry that my usual clarity lapsed under pressure...

Joe

Joe Bath,

You said you paid a thousand quid for that laptop. Here in the states that is two thousand dollars, a considerable amount for many of us. I can understand the pressure cause you are out similar amount for a second machine. If that were me I would be breaking down there door, literally.

Here is a suggestion that might break things up and get you your money.

E-mail Acer, attach this whole string, and tell them you will further publicize this sorry affair if you do not promptly get your money back.

j.

GA.

Good idea.

Jack

Did this and contacted the editor of a computer magazine who phoned Acer direct. Looks like things are happening. See my latest post.

Thanks again

Joe

Often it is the lower employees who run you around in circles and never let the problem get to the top people. When Chrysler gave us this kind of treatment we called the office of Lee Iacocca, the president of the corporation. He was busy, but we did talk to a vice-president and the problem was solved. Do some investigating online, or through a stockbroker, and get the telephone number/address of the president/CEO of Acer and call or write him. If you mail a letter, use a lawyers [barristers?] envelope and it will be read. Whenever you are not satisfied with the response from underlings, go to the very top.

Very inspirational! But it's not clear how "moving the mountain" is preferable, when moving the mole hill should do the trick.

It would also merit asking, if Iacocca would have been motivated to get involved for a vehicle been priced in the $hundreds; and purchased from another company.

Just a point to ponder.

I do believe I made this very same point in a previous post. _{^{You bastard!}}

Hey! Who said that?!

Hello Joe.Bath

You have another Forum Thread running, about this very problem: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/21510

The remedy is simple:

1. Ensure that all discussions are date/time recorded, along with name/s of all persons you talk with.
2. Advise each person you are making Notes, of what is discussed along with date's/time/s and persons spoken to - That generally rattles an obstructive person, so they pass you up the feeding chain.
   
3. Telephone the Company, ask for the Name of the Managing Director or CEO.
4. Do not be put off, get the Name, and his/her direct Fax Number.
5. Telephone once more, ask for that Manager/CEO by name.
   
6. Better still if you have a Fax facility, send to that direct Fax Number, which will give you a printed record that it was received, date/time etc.
   
7. Explain the situation directly.
8. Firmly insist on a refund.
9. Advise that "you would rather the refund be done, without having to take them to Court" saying that the Manager/CEO, and all those persons whose names you noted above, would be named as witnesses, if it came to a Court situation.
10. The Manager/CEO is the one person who is able to make a decision, do not accept conversation with "minions".
11. The Manager/CEO is not going to want to attend a Court, because their time is extremely valuable.
12. Neither does that Manager/CEO want the business partly closed because many of the Staff are attending a Court Hearing.
    

You will get the refund very promptly - You did give them 48 hours to refund the money to you, in your Fax, did you not?

Advise your progress, with

Kind Regards....

Sparkstation: The reason I started another link was because I wanted to get the specific opinion of software engineers on that specific point.

Thanks for your comments. All good sense.

Well Chaps and Chapesses

Interesting developments. Natasha from easycomputers phoned to say "don't accept the computer when it arrives". She wants me to send it back to her directly so that she can organise a full refund once she has a replacement laptop supplied by Acer.

One problem with this is that they delivered to the wrong address!

And not only that. There is another problem. Being that I was not at the wrong address (since I am at the address from which they collected it a couple of days ago and to which Natasha knew it had to be returned), went against everything they promised and LEFT IT WITH A NEIGHBOUR THAT I DO NOT KNOW!! This is a £1000 laptop we're talking about. As it happens, it's not worth more than the cost of the individual bits in it, but that's hardly the point.

At least easycomputers are being consistent from start to finish - consistently inefficient.

And then there is the second bit of good news (although it simply thickens the plot).

I had a phonecall from an Angela at Acer Computers saying that a senior manager had instructed her to contact me on the phone to arrange the return of the laptop so she could give me a full refund.

Left hand not knowing what right hand is doing?

Anyway, I think that the comments and assistance you have given has had some effect (on both links I created for this problem - one as a general question about law and bad products/service, and the other on the more specific question of whether a software problem can cause total failure of a laptop.

I will keep you all informed of the progress and just want to thank you for th brilliant support and advice that you have given.

Power to the people. Long live CR4!

Joe

RESULT:

Ladies and Gentlemen....

I can confirm that Acer and Easy Computers have agreed that the problem has nothing to do with software, but is a hardware fault which (along with the previous two related faults) renders the laptop "unfit for purpose".

We have won! £954.85 refunded directly in to my debit card. Total refund.

This is thanks to all of you for your great support and advice.

Thanks again and let me know if any of you ever need help with such a problem - I have become slightly longer in the tooth now...

Joe

Congrats to you for a job well done.

Which of us are ladies?

Hello CowAnon

I understand that Joe.Bath had ancestors who lived long ago, in that part of the UK north of Hadrian's Wall, and some looked like this chap

Accordingly he used a common word which he would have generally applied to the younger gentry reading the CR4 Forum.

It does appear that because he used the CR4 inbuilt Spellchecker, that what he typed was "corrected" to the US nearest word.

Thus his carefully typed "Laddies", came out as "Ladies".

Kind Regards....

Sparkstation: Great fun! How can I get hold of that active graphic? I have asked Vermin for the "clapping" one and would like to send this to a guy at Trading Standards and thank him for his help ( he's a good northern laddie).

Joe

This, too, seems to implicate your system...specifically the browser. You should check the settings.

Nice advice. Thanks. Will check.

Joe

Thanks for that insight. So glad to know it wasn't any backhanded reference to kilts...with undies. Cheers.

CA