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Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 1:15 PM

What are the pros/cons and proper application for 2 vs. 4 flute taps? Also, spiral vs. straight flutes, cobalt steel vs. high speed steel, TiN coated vs. no coating, etc. I want to order a tap that will give me a better quality fit than the taps from my local hardware and home supply stores. My current application is to tap a 1/4-20 hole into C464 naval bronze, but I would love to hear about all materials.

I also see a few taps listing "2B Class Of Fit" and most taps not listing a "Class Of Fit". A couple of listings indicate that "ground threads" makes the tap better.

I have also read (possibly on CR4, I forget) that the suggested drill size tables may be a bit "off" due to modern technology. I recall something about how modern drills and taps are manufactured with greater precision than "years ago" and therefore what is "best choice" with modern tight tolerance tools might be a little different than "best choice" with older wider tolerance tools.

All suggestions and wisdom will be appreciated.

Also, as a "mirror image" to the question about the quality of a tapped thread, is there a system for classifying the quality of the thread on the bolt/machine screw?

Thanks,

Bruce

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#1

Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 2:08 PM

Each type has been designed for a specific purpose.

Here is a quick guide

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#2
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 2:58 PM

What a great link Techno!

I must add, that a tap purchased from a hardware store will be just a basic 'run of the mill' bulk standard cheap tap that will cut a thread of whatever size you want but without the accuracy or the repeatability of a quality tap designed for a specific application! A tap designed for mild steel will not be of the same cutting geometry as that made for bronze or iron! Same can be said for blind holes or through holes! The strength of a thread can also be improved by thread forming/rolling instead of cutting (or chasing). It all depends on your application and setup! The physical size of the thread can also play a part due to the manufacturing process. I guess the table above is a good starting place for Bruce!

Always remember, A sharp tool is a happy tool and a clean machine is a happy machine!

Words of wisdom from a Toolmaker called Dick who had hands the size of plates and could coax a lathe to dance the tango!

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#11
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 8:16 AM

"...could coax a lathe to dance the tango..."

Odd he didn't get it to do a tap dance, innit?

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#12
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 8:29 AM

It's going to be one of those days eh! All we need is a cross ref to Morris dancing and we can kiss goodbye to a sensible Saturday!

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#13
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 9:16 AM

How 'bout Morris thread................

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#16
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 10:27 AM

Morris can start his own thread - we're commandeering this 'un!

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#17
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 11:11 AM

I'll have you know Morris was an apprentice of mine and made threads heretofore unknown in the industry.

Morris was blessed with one functioning brain cell and is now the manager of an edm machine shop. The reason edm?........I had to buy one to extract the broken taps. Morris really liked edm.

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#18
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 11:21 AM

"...threads heretofore unknown in the industry..."

PMSL!!! Inventive sort, isn't he? Any of 'em at all useful?

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#19
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 11:27 AM

"Any of 'em at all useful?"

Yes...if your left hand is using a right handed screwdriver

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#20
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 11:32 AM

As in the pipe threads for Escher's bathroom?

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#22
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 5:27 PM

He he......

http://www.mcescher.com/Downloads/downloads.htm

The above link is a bit of a tickle..........

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#3
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 3:29 PM

I agree, great link.

I have not yet made it through the other information at your link (http://www.precisiondormer.com/) but I hope they also have the "class of fit" information.

Part of the comment from Mr. Truman Brain has me a little confused. I can see from the precisiondormer link how flat bottom, taper point and spiral/straight come into play. But, does "A tap designed for mild steel will not be of the same cutting geometry as that made for bronze or iron" mean that the actual thread profile and thread depth on a "top of the line" tap would be different based upon the material that the tap is made for?

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#4
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 4:04 PM

The thread will be the same size but, how it was cut will be different! The cutting geometry of the tap is tailored to suit the material it is going to cut!

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#5
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 6:01 PM

Talking of solar hot water panels...

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#6
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 6:12 PM

Did you have to use specialized taps to make your Crossbow, Del?

(found it!)

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#7
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 6:23 PM

Not solar hot water panels. This thread has something to do with a musical band playing taps. Its over my head though, I have never heard taps played with flutes, only a trumpet.

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#8
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 6:57 PM

I don't know if this was intended to be funny or a serious guess.

My current application is making part of the mounting for hurricane shutters. My question has expanded out to a more general question about taps, threads, and issues related to tool material and/or work material.


(edit -- This was intended to be under the first solar panel comment, sorry I didn't get it in the right place.)

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#10
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 3:56 AM

.. sorry it was an 'in joke' and not very funny (someone said I was always trying to plug my various projects....they're all linked in my user profile...for anyone daft enough to click ont 'Del the Cat')

I'd have thought bronze was nice to tap but I've not worked with it. I love the feeling of cutting into material with hand tools (soft alli' isn't so nice tho' )

Del

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#23
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 11:41 PM

Thread profile will remain the same, however the clearance angle, back rake angle, level of finish quality, amount of room for accumulated chips, tap material (such as high carbon steel, high speed steel, or cobalt), and coatings ( such as TIN, TIAIN, Daimond PVD) can all be different depending on the material to be cut or formed.

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#24
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/10/2008 8:17 AM

this is what Brains' refering to

it is the leading cutting edge which is angled differrently for various specific hardness' of metals.

For bronze, brass and copper the angle is greater to prevent galling

For harder metals the angle is between -1'-2'

For zirconium and titanium the angle is + 2'-3'

Taps + Dies Terminology or Screw Threading Terminology for taps & dies:
BSW,BSF,UNC,UNF,Metric Standard,Metric Fine,BA,BSB,ME 32tpi ME 40 threads,BSP,BSPT,NPT,Whitform Special taps and dies

Angle of Thread: Angle included between the side of the thread measured in an axial plane
Basic Size: Theoretical or nominal standard size from which all variations are made
Chamfer/Lead:
For taps:- The taper at the thread end of a tap or the throat of the die, made by cutting away the crests of the first few threads is to distribute the work of cutting, over several threads and act as guide in starting the tap or die. The chamfer is relieved to facilitate cutting and the TAP is classed Taper(T), Second(S) or Bottoming(B), according to the length of chamfer, approximates are:
Taper tap is 4o per side (6 to 8 threads)
Second tap 8o per side (3.1/2 to 6 threads)
Bottoming tap 22o per side (1.1/2 to 2.1/2 threads)
Note: The name 'PLUG' is commonly used to indicate a Bottoming tap. In America it is used to indicate a Second tap. To avoid confusion the terminology that should be used as stated by British Standard 949,1979 is 'Bottoming' tap
For dies: stamped-size side is 45o and Back side is 60o
Clearance Hole: Holes in the die that provide the cutting rake and chip clearance
Cutting Edge: Leading edge of the land in the direction of rotation for cutting and which does the actual cutting.
Crest: The top surface joining the two flanks of a thread
Depth of Thread: The depth of thread, in profile is the distance between the crest and the root of the thread measured normal to the axis
Effective Diameter: On a parallel screw thread the diameter of an imaginary cylinder which would pass through the threads at such points as to make width of the thread at these points equal
Flute: The grooves in the tap that provide the cutting rake and chip clearance
Helix Angle: The angle made by the helix of a thread at the pitch diameter with a plane perpendicular to the axis. The helix angle increases continuously from the crest to the root of the thread
Land: That portion of the thread not cut away by the flutes or clearance holes.
Land Width: The chordal width of the land between the cutting edge and the heel measured normal to the cutting edge
Lead / Pitch: Distance a screw thread advances axially in one complete turn. On a single thread the lead and pitch are identical
Major Diameter: Largest diameter on a parallel screw thread or tap. The term 'Major Diameter'replaces the term 'Full Diameter'as applied to the thread of a nut
Minor Diameter: Smallest diameter on a parallel screw thread or a tap. The term 'Minor Diameter' replaces the term 'Core Diameter' and 'Root Diameter'as applied to the thread of a screw and also the term 'Inside Diameter' as applied to the thread of a nut
Number of Threads / Tpi: The number of threads in a length of one inch (threads per inch)
Tapping Drill Sizes: We will show you here how to calculate tapping-drill sizes: (generally)
For Metric (mm) threads a tapping-drill size is calculated by subtracting 'pitch' from diameter of the thread eg. for 4x.7mm thread: tapping-drill sizes is 4mm dia - .7 pitch = 3.3mm
For Imperial (inch) threads a tapping-drill size is calculated by subtracting 'pitch' from diameter of the thread eg. for 3/4 x 10 UNC thread is 3/4= .75 dia & 10 pitch=1/10 = 0.1
Tapping-drill sizes is .75 dia - 0.1 pitch = 0.65 x 25.4 = 16.5mm (Note: 25.4mm=1 inch)

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/11/2008 8:52 AM

Wow, that is a lot for me to think about. I'll go back through my MSC and McMaster Carr catalogs and see how well I can extract the truth from what the marketeers put in print.

Thank you,

Bruce

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#26
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/11/2008 9:21 AM

If you have any expensive taps/dies that become dull you can re-sharpen them by either giving them to a grinding machine shop or get a set of round sharpening stones and do it by hand.

Hope this helps.

Duck.

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#27
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/11/2008 3:01 PM

Buy your tap from local industrial supplier. You can buy tap for all the specific class. They can assist you on what kind of tap that fit your need best.

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#9

Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/08/2008 11:11 PM

For precision fit use undersize tap and lap the threads.

For bronze use HSS. Do not use coated.

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#14

Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 9:30 AM

If you are using alike metals then the diametre of the threaded bolt determines the depth of the tapped hole. The strength of the metal bolt does not increase with the amount of thread it is inserted into.

There are drills that are graduated into .010" increments used in the precision optics industry.

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#15

Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 9:50 AM

I find the combined drill and tap to the best for general use.

I've also noticed that the combined drill and tap hold up better then the four fluke taps, it might have something to do with their being more material in the length of the tap but I've had far fewer combined drill and taps break then with the four fluke taps.

Another advantage of the combined drill and tap is that it's easer to run the tap through a second time to clean the threads, where as with the four fluke there is more of a tendency of the tap to start cutting into the already existing threads.

I've also found that taps with a narrowing shank hold up better then the taps where the shank and the fluked cutting portion are the same diameter.

That's just my experience. We used both types and I would get one with the narrow shank and keep it to myself and have it last me a good while.

Material I primarily worked with are Stainless Steel, Mild Steel, Aluminum and UHMW.

I've never had to tap bronze.

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#21
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Re: Taps, 2 vs. 4 flute, spiral vs. straight flute

08/09/2008 1:37 PM

Thank you for the information on the drill-tap combinations. As we purchase new vehicles, I am tasked with mounting the equipment carried on them. I would guess 300 holes drilled,then tapped. Most are 1/4x20 and into aluminum. A few are into galvaneel (galvanized steel) I have been averaging about 1 tap per truck. I long ago gave up and just stuck the tap into the cordless reversible drill. Last week I bought a set of drill-tap combos just to not have to do two separate steps. I think they are from Greenlee. I have never used them before, and feared they were just a crappy gimmick. Now I have more hope. Thanks again.

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