Our right to personal safety

"I'm thinking deadly force might be the only means that muggers might understand."

Unfortunately, that may be true.

As an avid bicyclist, I've thought of this often. However, even though I have a $4000 bike, it's not worth my life.

I always carry this product:

Halt!

It's pepper spray, labeled as a dog deterrent, so you can buy it without a permit.

Hello Bricktop,

I agree that pepper spray would be effective provided you have the time to find it and use it. Two muggers waiting by a bike path may not give a cyclist much time to react.

So far as the legality of pepper sprays is concerned, this link discusses the law in various countries. In the U.S.A. the law seems to vary from one state to another, so you would have to check with authorities in your state. Your link states that it is not for use against people, so I guess the final decision would come from the court if the muggers decided to sue the cyclist for using a restricted weapon.

Look, you can't blow someone away for stealing you stuff. At least in the "Peoples Republic of Massachusetts", they will put you away for life.

The beauty of Halt!, is you don't need a permit to buy it, so, there is no paper trail, and if you ever have to use it, it's a wipe and toss item.

I worked shifts for many years, (thankfully, as the leader of my department, it's day shift only now). So, I've had my share of bike riding around the clock, in a city. I've slowed down a bit as I've grown older, but, back in my day, I literally clocked around 5000 miles in a year, (yes, I was totally obsessed). These days, I'm doing about 1000 miles a year, not bad for a 55 year old.

Anyway, in all those miles, I've never had to use Halt! on a human, (but been real close). I've used it on exactly 3 dogs, and it worked very well. When I bike, I carry a fanny pack, onto which I clip on a can of Halt!

Your son was in a situation that is a total nightmare. There was nothing he could do. It just happened too fast.

I like the idea of riding with friends, sometimes, not always possible. Thank God he will be OK.

I used to have small business making high power helmet lights, (no time anymore). We like to ride mountain bikes, through the woods, at night. Anyway, on a bike, you must be alert, and speed is your friend.

pi]Look, you can't blow someone away for stealing you stuff. At least in the "Peoples Republic of Massachusetts", they will put you away for life.

It's not that the thugs just stole his stuff (bike, cellphone, Blackberry). They used a large rock to attack him. People have been stoned to death, being hit by rocks. I may be wrong, but I think fists may be defined as deadly weapons in the right hands (pun observed). Son relates that during the melee, he did not know if they were going to kill him or not. While he was on the ground wrestling with one, the other was stomping him. Unfortunately, son has not had any self-defense training... pity. If two guys mugged me, I would not hesitate to blow them away, if I had the opportunity.

Oh, I agree completely. But in this state, they will look at you as the criminal. Back in the early 90's, I worked as a bouncer in a club on the wrong side of town. I always carried a .25 cal in my sock. Thank God I never had to use it. But if it was my live or his....

Take self-defence training, but this shite can happen so fast.

B/T:

It's been a long time, but, when I applied for my carry permit, I had to spend several hours in an auditorium with a Worcester police sergeant explaining the legalities of using deadly force in that jurisdiction. I've never felt that I had to carry concealed, but, if I had, I'd have been fully aware of the rules governing the use of firearms, and they didn't require me to be a victim. Education can be liberating.

Best regards.

DickL

Take self-defence training

Problem with that is some $mart-a$$ defense attorney for the criminal would use that against you, and twist it around that you took self-defense training to look for trouble.

and it is so true, it happens fast.

And as some of these post shows, it depends where it happens, on what you can do.

In Texas you can use deadly force to not only protect your own property but that of your neighbours as well. He only has to ask that you keep an eye on his house or his car. Boom - another bad guy gone!

At least in the "Peoples Republic of Massachusetts", they will put you away for life.

but, if they do an armed attack and you shoot one of the muggers, I believe the mugger carrying the weapon would be charged.

I like the idea of riding with friends, sometimes, not always possible. Thank God he will be OK.

riding alone is trouble, I do not know the history of his path he takes or his schedule or whether it was just high crime bike trial or opportunistic criminals.

I believe in the right to bear arms, but now-a-days, you pull a gun in self defense, and the criminal has a good chance of pulling out a bigger gun. no good becomes of it.

And the courts for a while gave the criminal more favor that the victim

I've never had to do it, but if you use a weapon in self-defence, the burden of proof is squarely upon you. Even if you are clearly in the right, your world will be turned upside-down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

As I have stated a few times above, the issue is basically moot. Muggers work totally on the element of surprise. it's all over before you can even begin to react. What are you going to do? Every time you see 2 guys by the side of the trail, pull your gun to be on the ready?

They prey on the person who isn't paying attention. They are basically cowards, and go with the path of least resistance. Bottom line is to stay alert. If they know you can see them from 60ft away, and you have a really good look at them, they're going to leave you alone, and wait for the next guy. Swerve away, yell obscenities at the top of your lungs, (last thing they want is attention). Quiet is their friend.

These are things I've learned biking over the last 40 years. Just my 2 cents worth.

That sir is a very good logical answer to my way of thinking.

but if you use a weapon in self-defence, the burden of proof is squarely upon you.

I'm glad I never experienced it but, if it happens, do not know how I would react given a choice, I won't considered the consequences. just self preservation.

But no matter how one reacts, you can't hesitate. And than live with it,

Well said, be prepared

Also as my posts earlier, courts do lean against the victim.

I remember Bernie Goetz, if I remember he looked like he could be victimized very easy. But even at that time I had sympathized on his behalf.

Look, you can't blow someone away for stealing you stuff. At least in the "Peoples Republic of Massachusetts", they will put you away for life.

Pressure needs to be put on the legislature of Massachusetts to change the law, so that persons can protect both their lives and property with deadly force. Perps put law-abiding citizens lives in jeopardy when they venture onto private property to commit felonies.

I tend toward compassionate answers. I'd suggest a small frame (one of the ultra-light alloys) .38/.357 revolver with Black Talon ammo. This will minimize the suffering time for the muggers.

I agree that black talon is quality ammo. Don't use it unless your local police force also uses it. From a going to court perspective you should use the same ammo as the local police uses. A good lawyer in court will make you the guilty party for using ammo such as black talon. If you are forced to shoot someone the only safe ammo to have from a legal point of view is the ammo the local jurisdiction police use. You can not be "impeached" in court if you use the same ammo as the local police. If you use any other "high inflicted damage labeled" ammo in court you can be made to look like you wanted to kill someone maliciously. For sure never use handloads in a weapon you may be forced to use in self defense.

Good point. I only proposed that because there is no way to conceal a 12 gauge pump Ithaca while riding a bike (unless you could maybe disguise it as a tire pump?).

Er, excuse me sir, the tire on my car is flat. I noticed that you have a very fancy tire pump on your bike. Could you be so kind as to pump up my tire?

Well dear sir,

Make it look like it is part of the supporting structure, like those bikes which looks like custom motor bikes, make sure there is a safety on it. you don't want to blow off your own backt tire when you go downhill

As the old saying goes, "Safety in numbers." When biking, jogging, or walking, try to do so with a friend or two. Smith & Wesson, Sam Colt, Sturm, Ruger, and Co. have befriended many.

If you can't take a friend, take martial arts lessons. When the thug tries to use a rock on you and it winds up lodged in one of his nostrils, he'll get the idea that he picked on the wrong person, and then he'll reconsider his actions.

If you aren't armed and are overwhelmed just cooperate and don't fight back. Just as it is illegal to kill someone over property it doesn't make sense to get killed over it. You can get a new bike but you only have one life.

Weapons are great if they are legal or you can get away with it but as noted you may not have the opportunity to deploy it, whatever it is. A little bit of preparation and knowledge can be very useful. It only takes an instant to break someone's knee with a well placed foot or to slice out their eyes with your fingertips or a well placed gouge.

In Virginia it is legal to use deadly force if you believe you are at risk of loosing your life or being grievously injured. Studying a marshal art is certainly good and if you are considering it for self defense I would recommend Tae Kwon Do. It is simple and the focus is on speed and power. "One punch, kill or cripple." is our moto but we study from a 9th dan grand master from Korea so it's pretty hard core. We're the guys that break bricks with our fists so if I hit someone in the head, well, you get the idea.

Most people aren't going to have the time to go that route so a good self defense course is probably your best bet if you are at risk. Add whatever weapons you are comfortable with to that and you have a more than one option. You might need to poke out the first guys eyes to give you time to hit the rest of them with pepper spray or something more lethal.

Choose your routes carefully. Don't be afraid to turn around or go another direction if you have concern about what's ahead. Better to be inconvenienced or late than dead or injured.

rcapper,

I can, certainly, attest that martial arts are effective. About 30 years ago I was accosted by a local creep, as I was placing him under citizen's arrest after I caught him vandalizing a parked vehicle by repeatedly driving his Bronco into it. Well, he did blind side me with a lucky punch, knocking my glasses off, while I was checking his ID. I assumed a stance (was taking Tae Kwon Do at the time), and he decided he didn't want to deal with me physically, so agreed to accompany me to a phone in a hotel, so I could call the cops. Once inside, he turned tail and ran out the door. Being a runner/road-racer, I easily caught him, grabbing him by the collar of his jacket. He spun around and tried several punches, but I blocked them all, stepped forward, grabbed his collar again, and used a foot sweep (judo) to take him down. As we hit the sidewalk with me on top, my right elbow planted him squarely in the solar plexus with all of my weight on it. Took the wind right out of him. When he could speak again, he begged me to let him up. He didn't want to fight any more, and we waited for the cops to show. I found out a few days later, that the owner of the vandalized pickup didn't want to press charges, 'cause they feared the thug would sneak back and sugar the tanks of the heavy company vehicles (a road building company). I used my judo experience to control this guy, but could have really done him damage, had I opted to use karate. The guy only had one chance when he knocked my glasses off.

A couple of decades went by, and the next time I heard anything about the reprobate was when I read in the paper that he had been arrested for trying to hire a hit man to murder his wife. He was found guilty at trial, and I think he is still in the pen.

Skeeter

"Most people aren't going to have the time to go that route so a good self defense course is probably your best bet if you are at risk."

Well, maybe. Then again, maybe not.

I live in Virginia, am a Vietnam Vet, have a concealed carry permit and ride a motorcycle almost exclusively. Oh, and I have had a goodly amount of hand-to-hand combat training.

However, being 60 years old, 145 pounds and not very muscular, I prefer to stay out of arms reach of any would-be attacker. The best lesson I got from hand-to-hand training is to avoid it at all costs.

As such, my Glock is my best friend. If I run out of ammo before the outcome is settled, then I'll fall back on what I know about kneecaps, crotches, windpipes, eyes and noses.

Hooker

Most (mountain)bikes can hold a water bottle with some modification it can hold a pepperspray can or a tazer

I would suggest a S and W s/s 40 caliber pistol in a place that is very easy to get to. The s/s for damp conditions and 40 cal. just because a 45 would be a little to much IMO. He probably would not even had to fire it.

pipewelder

Flash -bang percussion grenades are used by police departments to disorientate suspects seeking shelter inside buildings. They are at their best when it is dark. If possible, direct the light and sound away from yourself. It helps put you in control.

The ole "Screaming Meanie" works every time! I gave one to my daughter, it went-off by accident and cleared the break-room

120db is a sound you want to get away from

I did not have the intention to design a device, but it's a good idea. Son is scheduled for foot surgery on Tuesday, 11/11/08, to have broken bones screwed together.

My comment concerning the flash bang grenade should not be interpreted as as my suggestion for you, or anyone to try to use as protection. The comment was meant to explain how effective the light and noise can disorient someone.

As TRex suggested the loud noise, combined with a pair of very bright flashing lights, triggered as mentioned with a wrist lanyard connected to a fail safe switch. There are 3 watt LEDs that will blind if set in a good reflector. This would allow you to power the whole thing with a 9 volt battery.

I hope the surgery on your son's foot goes well. I hope the entire healing process goes well also.

The bottom line is that you really, really, have to pay attention when your riding. Modern road bikes put you in a position with your head down. I know, everyone wants to look like Lance, but if you ride around town, your better off on a mountain bike, with an upright seating position. If your taken by surprise by muggers, they may very well use that Glock against you.

A couple years ago I lost a friend, riding a very expensive road bike. He was all tucked in, and very aero, but failed to see the van that pulled over and stopped in front of him. Poor bastard, if he hit a car, he would have flown over the top and been banged up, but a van, splat.

All of this stuff, especially with muggers and road hazards, happens in a milli-second. Keep your head up and look around. Usually, all it takes is a swerve to avoid trouble.

Very sorry to hear about your friend.

My son has had 4 previous bike accidents, prior to the mugging. He, like your friend, hit a vehicle, parked illegally in a bike lane. It was night, he was being passed by a moving vehicle that was too close for him to go around the parked car, and a curb on his right... so, he hit the parked car. I think he broke his hand on that one.

Biking has been his main mode of transportation for most of his college years, so I guess accidents go with the territory, but being attacked, while riding, is a new experience for him.

Apparently, use of deadly force to protect person or property is also allowed in California (same for Montana, and probably other states, as well) , under certain circumstances...

California Penal Code

Section, 197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:

1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,

2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein;

A brace of Dobbies or Rtts

I don't know say a flash-bang in the seat tube and a remote Of course remove ser #s and wear gloves I suffer not thieves. They don't play by the law, the cops don't follow the law, Blunt force trauma works.

Use a 22 Mag with hollow points. Louder than a hot loaded 357, small, light, relatively cheap ammo, bullet fragments so hard to trace, no exit wound

Get your kid in Martial arts. He may never have to use it because they attack those weaker than themselves. If they think it could be a problem they leave it alone. Bullies attack the ones they think are weak not the one who may cause them grief.

Situational awareness is one key, fighting by reflex is another. The gun is only for life threatening situations. Learn the local laws for when deadly force and weapons can be used. If necessary create the situation to fit the law. Learn the laws for citizens arrest and defending yourself from making a citizens arrest.

If non violence is important try Aikido. There is a soft and hard style, he will want the soft. If he wants a hard Karate style I would suggest Kenpo.

I've worked in Security, Body guard, had a PI ticket for armed work, and work as a currier.

Brad

Hi UV,

GA though getting knocked off a bike by a well aimed brick or rock may put one in an indefensible or fuzzy state, Skeeter's son was fortunate.

I hesitate to describe tactics so openly though flight is your greatest asset, if not www.safetygearhq.com/stunmaster.htm

A citizen defending oneself can do a lot more legally than a law abiding Cop.

Hi bwire,

A citizen defending oneself can do a lot more legally than a law abiding Cop.

So true but the system will bite you if you don't do it right. In Texas you can shoot a thief dead, but his/her parents/spouse can sue you for their loss.

When a person has a presents of awareness and ability few will attack.

An instructor and good friend of mine had a whole series of defense tactics for kids. His strategy was get loose, get even, get away. Flight works if your attackers are after what was left. The bait may be his shoes his wallet, his life. The "get even" way step is to incapacitate your attacker so they can't chase you. Now flight is much more viable as a solution.

If one lives in an environment of danger, body armor is a useful tool. Just don't tell anyone and don't make it look like armor or desirable so that will not be the bait to lure muggers.

Brad

Hi UV,

Many good points.

We use the way of 'don't go until you know, don't go alone and don't take a knife to a gun fight'.

Some of us necessarily traverse dangerous ground often and we need to have personal security meeting with ourselves everyday. This sounds silly but is an effective discipline, as minimizing the opportunity.

Some carry a spray to protect the stun and a telescopic baton to protect the gun.

Having a plan that you have executed it in your mind is helpful. Becoming complacent about the treat or effectiveness of CS/CN or what ever strategy can lead you into trouble.

bwire,

Very good point about the prep. Before I carry, I review where I'm going and under what circumstances I would use deadly force. When I can't be sure, I don't carry, and if that's no longer safe, I don't go.

A GA to ya!

My freind and enemies will tell you I also use Judo.

Ju don't know if I got a knife,

Ju don't know if I got a gun,

and Ju don't have a clue how I will react, just expect it will work.

A reputaion will do wonders, As a good freind of mine used to tell people who didn't know me " even when I win the fight it doesn't feel like a win" A conflict is not just physical.

Brad

I would also add:

If they don't know your plans then it is hard for them to interfere;

If they don't know what you can do then it is hard to plan against you;

Gather intelligence but give out red herrings or trivial unrelated points;

Random violance is rarely random just you are in the wrong place at the wrong time;

Never show fear, and learn to read your antagonist;

Make no assumptions and you will not be suprised.

I sound like a fortune cookie

Brad

Skeeter I hope your son comes through this without it being a detourant to the things he likes to do. As others have said he needs to give thought to the most practical way of defending his god given rights in his persuit of happyness and personal libertys as guaranteed by our founding fathers. If he enjoys what he does then he needs not let any man deny him his right to do it. The constitution and the bill of rights provides for one to defend themself from acts of aggresion or from being liberated from their personal property. My conclusion is its far more desireable to use deadly force to protect ones self and property and risk being tried by a jury of 12 than be carried by 6. I know that you prefer to have a nonaggressive approuch to his protection but I don't believe his attackers would respond to anything less. If it came down to being found guilty by an ignorant jury to have my son spend prison time is better than spending Cemetary time. J. Conway

You guys are talking about a situation in a country where you may count with police and any alarm and disorientation device would cause confusion and fear in the robbers.

Talking from a place where, if you install such device you may cause the robbers to become angry and attack you in reply (if they're not already doing so as it was the case...) the only defense you have is prevention. Pay attention, do not ride with earphones, use a bike with degraded painting and covered equipment not to call for itself, ride fast, silently. Your real defense, when you're alone and away from other resources, is not being surprised.

If you are stopped by two robbers and are attacked, run away, let them take your bike and leave your life, if there's no one around to assist you. Do not be taken in surprise. If you are, one guy do not deal two with rocks. You have the entire life to buy another bike.

I really figure that if you take your time to get a pepper spray point to one guy, use it, and then to the other... hum, bad for you.

Hell, where I fill my car up with gas and get a cup of coffee at the gas station, one Monday I walk in and had to use another side door because the glass on the door of the station was plywood shut,

I asked the attendant, which I had small talk with everyday what happened.

She said get this, some native Americans (Indians) broke into the station after hours that weekend and stole a few cases of beer. She said the silent alarm went off and it was an hour before the police showed up. They had them on cameras license plate on their vehicles, so they could ID the thief's. The police went over to their house all they could find was empty beer cans.

And the police said for what you'll get out of it, it's not worth it prosecuting them. They basically being losers they have nothing to lose. Now the police do not give this type of advice. But it shows how they can become defeated by the courts system.