Alternative Energy for Residential Use

940kWh/month at, say 30 days per month, at 24h per day represents a continuous load of 1.3kW (over twice that of a home at these latitudes, incidentally). The effectiveness of solar capture depends upon latitude and local cloud cover. One might need somewhere north of 100m² of photovoltaic panel to achieve 1.3kW on average over the year, which is a rather large panel for the roof of a domestic building.

Wind collectors are currently available from a number of commercial sources. There are national wind survey data available that influence the worth of installing micro-generators.

Would it be better to split the storage so that domestic hot water is provided by a thermosyphoning fluid collector system, thereby reducing the size and expense of the photovoltaic collector system?

What has been done at the existing building in terms of energy efficiency, particularly modern lighting systems, thermostats, time-switches and thick insulation, that could be learned from and copied into the proposed building?

It might prove uneconomic to gather all the building's energy needs from capture, and the final result might involve the providing of a number of energy sources, part of which might be from the local grid.

Del the cat has installed a home-brew solar capture system to boost domestic hot water supplies at a house in Harlow, UK, and the system has been featured in a recent CR4 blog on the subject.

Hello PWSlack:

Good answer!........GA to you........

Solar hot water blog link.
GA PW
Del

BTW I just want to say flange...flange...flange flange flange...ahhh I feel better for that

so many issue, so little information. Will you be grid tied? Will you need 0 to 4 days of energy storage if not grid tied.

You'll need at the minimum a 6 kilowatt system, to as big as 15 kilowatt system if you want to be 100% off grid. COSTS, in the US $40,000 to $150,000 for a 4 day back up system off grid PV system. You want to double or tripple us, double and tripple the size and cost.

Wind is a little trickier because wind can be calm for weeks or be to fast and the turbine is offline for excessive winds. on the average it works out to a 10 kilowatt to 25 kilowatt system. COSTS, in the US $25,000 to $60,000.

Hello Transcendian, TMF Here,

Been there and done that with the Girl friend,fience'. Damb expensive, substituted adoration, love and trust for, "Common Sense", couldn't afford a Lawwyer, got skinned agin, what was it that Bret Maverick said, that his Pappy always said, Man is the only animal than be skinned more than once."

I would suggest that the would be New Home Builder, consider the cost of providing his electricity from a couple of forklift batteries, through inverters to his home electric panel. Then determine just how he will keep these batteries charged. a couple of small wind turbines might be a good thing, as would be some solar panels. I would suggest that he consider a metal roof with standing seams. There are now available thin film photovoltaic panels that fit nicely between the seams and would be protected from winds on the edges. Of course this requires that the area of the roof be sloped where these panels are installed and that will impact the design of the building. He must also consider a small standby generator. It should be fueled by propane unless he has NG available. Then I suggest NG as it is less expensive. The Poster does not indicate whether or not he plans to live in a suberb or a country side area, therefore giving him any specific information is futile. There are lots of free energy sites that can provide info regarding the loads/"killer" watts, etc., he only has to look with his eyes and his fingers. If he cannot figure this out he should be content to let others provide his electricity, because doing it your self requires some degree of attention. There are no free hot dogs at the free energy party!

TooMuchFun

Hello Transcendian:

A very good answer!............GA to you!

Hey check out my site www.qmabuildingsupplies.com I have been building solar and window houses for years, this building block is one of the best and easy for a DIYer. Let me know what you think thanks scott

Use a different line for the grey water from bath, showers, sinks, dishwasher and connect to the sewer line at the lowest point in the mechanical room. This will make it easier if you ever want to recuperate heat from the hot water you are discarding. I did that and am saving about $50 per year in water heating. The installation cost was about $200.

This will cut your power requirement by about 3KWh per day. Not much to celebrate but it is going in the right direction.

Geothermal heat pump are very good and relatively easy to install in a new home. I have a an oversized 5t unit with 3000 feet of closed loop buried at 5-6 feet deep. I should have used a 3.5t unit for my 2000sq-ft home in Montreal. My yearly energy bill is $1600. I only use electricity for heating and cooling. I also added a second water coil to dump the summer heat in my swimming pool. I keep it at 35C (90F) from June to September. This is very good for this area.

As mentioned by many people above. Think saving energy more than production. The alternative energy sources are not easy to tap into and don't really pay for themselves if you include maintenance and shorter life than advertised.

I am very happy with my connection to the grid. The geothermal heat-pump was a good investment. The grey water energy recovery is a questionable investment as it adds maintenance. I had fun building it though.

Good luck.

So many or maybe too many good tips.

Most of my clients starts with this idea:

ver. 1: Fully equiped home with metal (shingles) roof covered by film + battery + inverter + good electric installation plans (including all possible in future appliances, pumps etc.)

ver. 2 PV panels on well-planned roof with starting power 4 to 5 kW and ability to extend in the future +battery + inverter.

Notes: 1. Forget of grid connection "to get selling to utility company". It just creates problems from the start.

2. Be sure you have all protections as lightning and fire/grounding.

We may discuss details if you wish.

When I was in college many years ago my senior project was to determine the feasability of using a rock filled underground area to store heat. This was in Rhode Island it turned out to be feasable. Look into that application as one of the responders mentioned.

#1 would be to re-think your power requirements. Using high efficiency appliances and lighting. Passive heating of space and water (as mentioned). Elimination of phantom power usage. Simple choices like the type of television display will affect your power usage.

Lifestyle changes can save money as well. Are you willing to dry your clothes on a line instead of in a dryer?

Peak power requirements will be tougher than average power requirements. This is where the generator assisted system (mentioned above) comes in. When the family arrives home from school/work the system will need a boost. Just remember your neighbours may not like your generator as much as you do (noise).

In my opinion a generator is a must for backup on a system like this. So you may as well put it to work for you.

Although you mention only wind and solar power, if you have the option of capturing energy from water, you should consider this. Harnessing power from a running brook would provide a fairly constant way to maintain power in storage batteries.

A water wheel would add the property value and add some eye appeal.

Yes. Stream of water may generate electricity via a long shaft/small diameter simple turbine with transmission (e.g. gear box) to a small generator - e.g. truck alternator up to 3 kW.

To capture electricity, (Hydro Power) from a running brook, requires that one consider what happens down stream when one creates a dam to insure year round flow that will be sufficient to cause the water turbine to function. Of course one could just create a side flow sluce to capture the needed energy and use this as your relief to the down stream needs while you construct the remainder of a low dam that still holds back some water to increase flow as needed to power the hydro plant. if the sluce is designed so that the turbine can be installed to function as an under wheel driven system, and the flow is sufficient, one might deepen the area before said dam and have a nice little fishing spot as a benefit.

BUT: First one must have a brook to begin with, and I didn't remember the Blog poster write about one.

TMF

The head (height) required to produce any usable amount of energy from a small stream or brook is significant. And dams or re-routing the water is illegal without a permit in most places. I have a stream running the full length of our 45 acre property and the calculations I've done show that it is not worth the effort. Besides getting a permit for it is next to impossible.

On the other hand, there are products on the market that resemble an outboard motor that you can submerge in a fast running river. They generate electricity from the current.

If you want to use water to generate electricity on demand you could windmill pump it into a reservoir and release it when you need it. But you need a big reservoir.

I had thoughts of a sluce to use a small amount of water to allow an additional source of power to assist the PV panels. To stay off the grid efficiently, usually requires looking at as many options as possible. Hell, If I thought it would work, I would put windmills next to the road to let the wind from the passing cars generate electricity for me.

I had the same thoughts. Like many sources of a trickle charge. It's just the amount of $$ and time involved doesn't justify it.

It hasn't stopped me though. I thought of getting around the dam issue by using the running water to drive a water wheel to move water up to a pond. This could be supplemented by a windmill pumping water the old fashioned way.

Hey, may be hybrid cars will become so efficient that we can run our houses on them when we are not driving them!!!

gedevine -- Your pumped storage idea using an undershot water wheel to drive a plain old fashioned well pump is really cool low tech stuff. Both operate at low speeds so a simple crankshaft and rod mechanism is all that's needed. Possibly a direct connection with no gears. When viewed not so much as an energy extraction device as a means for an emergency water source it looks good for rural locations where water is drawn from a well with an electric driven pump.

In our modern life one of the biggest nuisances when the power goes out is having to constantly carry and dump water into the toilet tank. A water tank that has as little as 10 feet of static head feeding the toilets is all you need. In my house we have long had separate water lines to the toilets that bypassed the water softener. The biggest downside to that is every year or so it's necessary to give the toilet bowls a special cleaning to remove the mineral buildup above the waterline.

Anyone interested google search "poncelet water wheels". This is a high efficiency curved blade design that would be easy to make from sheet metal (perhaps galvanized sheet and rivets for a small one). I briefly toyed with the idea of mounting a large number of cheap small rare earth magnets equally spaced in holes around the rim of a water wheel. A row of pickup coils on the stationary frame on the high side of the water wheel would complete the basic elements of an electric generator. I didn't do any calculations; but instinctively feel that the best you could expect with a homebrew setup like this is a couple of hundred watts. It would eliminate all need for mechanical connections like belts and gearboxes for driving an alternator that are basically incompatible with a creekside location.

Another neat low tech "off grid" project for arid areas would be to catch rainwater off the roof, drain it through a sand filter and then use a windmill to pump it to an elevated storage tank for an emergency source or irrigation use during the dry season. One could treat that water to make it potable, but that's another topic.

Just a bunch of barely on topic musings here.......

Ed Weldon

I fear that all of the good, or bad ideas may remain unused. We have had no response from the OP yet.

If the OP offers a response that allows us to believe that he is conscious, and remains among the living, and even gives a damn, I too shall offer interesting options again. However until that occurs, I'll just be having TooMuchFun elsewhere on CR 4.

TMF

TMF -- My feelings, and that's just me, are that if the OP doesn't join in the discussion after a day or two that I'm just talking to the rest of you guys....... which is OK since I figure most of you are interested in the subject to read what I write (OK, maybe at least the first sentence or two) and maybe even disagree with me. (That's how I learn).........What I'm still trying to learn is how to break up is "run on sentences".

Ed Weldon

'What I'm still trying to learn is how to break up is "run on sentences".'

I usually just number the pages.

Hello Bob c,

I used to do that too but then I found legal sized paper. Now the courts want everything on letter sized paper and spaced for us non lawyers. The real guys can send in their correspondence electronically. Go figure!

TMF

Good afternoon Ed,

I to enjoy exchanging comments with you and at least most of the others, even though I may sometimes get a little frustrated with some responses, but everyone is entitled to their opinion and to respond accordingly.

As for attempting to break up the long running sentences, I find commas and quotations help, as it is all coming from my thoughts I can address it as a quote from me. After that I attempt to simply look for a good place to hit the enter key and begin again.

TMF

HI FOLKS.

GOOD EVENING, TMF, GDEVINE, ED WELDON, BOB C,. I AM SORRY THAT IT APPEARS THAT I HAVE NOT LISTENED TO YOU OR RESPONDED, THAT IS NOT THE CASE. I READ THROUGH THE FIRST RESPONSES AND MADE A NOTE BY STARTING A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION UNDER "PART 2 PROPER EQUIPMENT FOR MY NEEDS" I APOLOGIZE THAT I APPARENTLY DID IT WORNG. THIS IS MY FIRST FORRAY INTO THE CR4 WEBSITE AND I THOUGHT THAT THE REPLY BUTTON WAS TO RESPOND TO THAT INDIVIDUAL EMAIL NOT ON THIS THREAD. AGAIN I APOLOGIZE FOR MY IGNORANCE AND WILL TRY TO DO BETTER. MY EMAIL LIGHTS ME UP EVERYTIME ONE OF YOU FOLKS RESPOND SO BELIEVE ME YOU ARE NOT JUST TALKING TO HEAR YOURSELF MAKE NOISE. I AM FOLLOWING BUT SINCE I AM JUST A MONKEY PULLING LEVERS ON A TRACK HOE I AM NOT AS VOCAL AS I NEED TO BE. IM CATCHING ON, THANKS FOR THE IDEAS I AM STILL HERE.

MUZZYRAP

Another option to a dam is routing a portion of the water through a pipe to a lower outlet area. This allows the head required to turn a small turbine. But again, the cost of piping and maintenance changes it from an efficient project to a hobby project. Which is fine by me.

Getting away from dependence on electric companies is one of my long term goals. Even my furnace will soon run on a self sustained soar/wind system. Or a sterling engine if I can get it to work???

Funny you mention the water tower. I'm considering that for all of my water use. My neighbour uses a water tower now.

THIS IS MY INITIAL RESPONSE, SORRY GUYS IM GETTIN IT.

Thank you all for some very eye opening ideas and key points to consider. I am still in the very early stages of building a home and as it has been said i want to view all my options and research the best outcome .as some pointed out i did not supply enough info so here are some fine points. I currently live in Jacksonville fl so solar is a given and wind is a strong possibility since i am not to far off the coast. I am trying to decide whether to build here in Florida or building a home in the KY, TN, WV, NC or SC somewhere in the hills. If current experts are correct and the ice melts then Jacksonville will be under water probably. My current household is a 1000 sq apartment so no major changes can be made to make it greener except light bulbs and conscious monitoring of usage. No family just a wife and we want the new home to be a retirement purchase so going green will be cheaper in our golden years and not effect retirement (we are in our early 40's) money with a fixed income.

I intend to live in a rural area completely off grid. I do not want to have anything to do with any type of power company. That being said yes i plan on having some type of battery storage, i have also considered building the home into the side of a hill so that most of it will be insulated by the surrounding earth but i still have more to consider about that. I have also considered using an instant hot water maker instead of a normal water heater storage tank. I must investigate what the difference in electrical usage would be between the two.

I continue to surf the web for ideas and assistance, as i said i am in the very early stages of this project. Again i thank all of your help and i will visit the sites that were suggested. Thank you

Muzzyrap

Since I am still in the embryo stage of going green there are a few ideas that I have had and this is my basic outline so far. I am expecting to be completely off grid with wind and solar as I said. It is my expectation to have a metal roof for the house and cover every square inch of it with the ultra thin pv panels that I found out about through UNITED SOLAR OVONIC. Granted I am sure that there are other companies out there that supply the same type of pv equipment but they just happened to be the first that I found and iI am still hunting. I figured that between a roof covered solar system and 1 possibly 2 wind generators if needed should provide enough power to keep the battery bank charged to run the household 24/7 off grid.

Also I was greatly impressed by the water ideas. I am still looking for a property to build the house and a small stream passing by or through the property is something that I will look at as well. Although after reading the previous comments it will not be a deciding factor in the purchase of the property. Its one of those things that if it is there I will use it but if not I will take a different avenue.

You can calculate the angle of the sun where you live with info from the net. This allows you to angle a glass roof to allow direct sun in the winter and reflect the sun in the summer. It can also help you calculate the length of eve overhang to allow sun in windows in the winter and shade windows in the summer.

A berm house is great for moderating temperature changes. Concrete retaining walls can be used as passive heat sinks. In my (bad) sketch below you can see the direction of the winter sun is perpendicular to the glass and direct on the major retaining wall which would be of a material and surface that retains heat well. In the summer the wall is shaded so no heat is transferred. Also the glass tends to reflect the sun energy at the angle of the summer sun.

This doesn't have to be part of the main house. It could be the breeze-way between the house and garage and heat transfered through vents.

There is now a tintable glass available. It can be tinted to adjust the amount of light you desire th pass through. Google Smart Glass.

Muzzyrap, I do not know much about Jacksonville per say, but I am concerned for anyone who makes a considerable investment in Florida, which may have solar and wind potential, but is "hurricane haven".

A friend of mine has an apartment outside of miami somewhere, and her family had it basically destroyed a few hurricane seasons ago. Their insurance company covered the damages and distinctly told them they would not be covered for another runaround with a hurricane and the season had only barely begun.

I joke sometimes (not really funny) that people shouldn't live on a flood plane if they want to avoid a flood destroying everything they own. Don't move to the base of a volcano if you don't have to. People indigenous to an area are most likely to stay there for the rest of their lives even, and are disconnected from their fear from such natural events and catastrophe. However, if you have a choice, an educated decision should be exercised while analyzing all possible factors in order to choose the best option and outcome.

So, my question to you is, do you think Jacksonville is a place that is "safe" enough to make such an investment ? And do wind options for energy come with a risk factor in hurricane/high storm potential areas ? Do they need to be hurricane proof for a lack of a better way to put it ?

To answer your last question, the Outer Banks of the Carolina region have been rebuilt time and again after hurricane damages. Each time the price goes up, and each time the investment is made by the people that want to live there. The risk is something that some people find manageable .

One of the influences on me as to why I live where live in NC is in fact hurricanes. Usually by the time a bad storm gets this far inland winds are slowed. Actually I like it that the wind doesn't blow that much around here. 18 degrees with no wind, is only 18 degrees. I will never forget a camping trip with the combined families on the Mother and Father side that was on the Outer Banks in August. Mosquitoes ate us alive at night. Of course 100 degrees and 80 percent humidity has its own charms. "Buy your ticket and take your chances." As said, taylor your energy systems to where you live. As a base I am a believer in having a battery system to run some electronics and lights pretty much regardless of where you might live. The battery study I did that actually first led me to Global Spec & CR4 made me think that Marine Batteries and inverters for a core system were recommended. Combined with some Propane supplies one ought to be able to get through at least emergencies. During the last grid failure we had gas to the stove, and battery radios, and I heated large pots of water for bedroom heat. For greenhouses it is often practical to just fill old sheetrock buckets with water, paint them black, and put them in the sunnyside of the greenhouse.

"Usually by the time a bad storm gets this far inland winds are slowed."

I, along with every weather forecaster believed that till the year one hurricane came in, from the Gulf of Mexico, north of Fort Myers, and destroyed south Florida all the way until it went out into the Atlantic south of Cape Canaveral. I think that was Charlie.

If that did not teach me that that was untrue, then when Wilma came in from Fort Meyers as a cat 1 and traveled all the way across the So Fla peninsula, and hit my house as a strong cat 2, I became convinced that hurricanes did not learn that they die over land.

"You buy your ticket, and take your chances." When my roof needed repairs, I talked to a friend that has owned his own roofing business for 40 years. He convinced me to do it myself. He guided, I worked. I can't tell you how many helpers would not work with me after one day. The prevailing conversation was "you don't need to do that" and It's my house, and I want to do it this way. I now have hurricane straps on both sides of every roof truss. I have replaced the roof planks with pressure treated 1x8s with reinforced braces under them On top of that, I installed another layer of 5/8" plywood. Then wrapped it all with 2x12 fir for fascia board. Next comes the strongest wind rated shingles sold by GAF. (150 mph) I will add a few diagonals in the attic, and I will hope for the best.

I would love to spend more time vacationing in the Sebring area. Thank you for the words of wisdom on the roofing plans. I found the same thing. If you described the roof design that I wanted, the contractors wanted enough money to build a new house, or they just lied to me with lines like; You don't need that. The cheap shingles are just as good. If it meets code, why do you want anything better? What BS. How cold did you get the last 2 days?

By the way GA, and do you believe that hurricanes will die when they travel over land?

Good morning Bob,

I just got up and I am heading for the coffee pot. Retired folks sometimes sleep in a little when it is cold out. And it is still cold out again. As for how cold was it, My wife went to work at around 6 am and said that it was 28 degrees according to the inside/outside "thermeter" ( hard to talk right when one first gets out of bed) in her Solara.

As for hurricanes slowing down over land, well that will depend on whether it can find a heat source, like Lake Okeechobee, or not. As hurricanes are passing over land they meet resistance and generally cooler environments, or at least environments that resist giving up it's heat as generously as the open sea.

TMF

And if you really want to get even more correct, have your floor constructed in steel joists and pour a semi light weight concrete on permanent pan forms

AS AN OPERATOR I MAINLY DEAL WILL SITE PREP AND NOT SO MUCH WITH ACTUAL BUILDING CONSTRUCTION. I CLEAR IT, MOVE IN MATERIAL, INSTALL UNDERGROUND UTILITIES, INSTALL DRAINAGE AND SEWAGE, BUILD THE CURBS AND ROADWAYS, AND GET THE BUILDING PADS READY. COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHAT THE ABOVE STATEMENT IS. ALSO, WHAT IS A "CBS" HOUSE???? DID YOU CUT A DEAL THE NETWORK??? YUCK YUCK.

Hurricane is another reason to have a berm house. But don't forget the steel shutters!

Hi csoulpro

I live in a cyclone (hurricane) prone area. A couple of years ago cyclone Larry (Category 5 - similar to New Orleans) passed only about 40km south.

I have a picture somewhere of a fence paling driven through a palm tree. When I find it I'll post it here for interest sake.

I suffered considerable damage to the garden but little to the house, because it was designed for this type of event.

Plenty of rainfall, good soil, an idyllic climate. In winter we complain bitterly about the cold for the 5-10 days in which minimum temperature falls below 15C. Days are always 22C and up, but summer is rarely over 33C. I wouldn't willingly live anywhere else, except perhaps on the Tablelands just inland from here.

If muzzyrap builds a berm house, and it is properly designed for the conditions, hurricanes will be no bother.

I've been through several cyclones, although Larry was the most severe. Cleanup is a nuisance, but otherwise it is no great problem.

Wow... You guys reinvent the limits of what we call "troopers" huh ? I relish the fact that you can self sustain and flourish in cyclone and hurricane zones. You guys have no fear of catastrophe do you.

I agree that When I lived in California a while, I would wake up sometimes from tremors or small quakes (pretty rare and nominal though) and wondered where the alarm clock was, but never allowed fear of earthquakes to deter me from living there. But I can't say that any housing I lived in was as safe as your abode probably is.

The moral of the story is to prepare and anticipate as much as you can especially in building and planning specifically for the natural phenomenon and catastrophic tendencies of your locale on this beautiful planet.

Well, more power to you, and I hope it is never a problem. How about an indoor greenhouse to save the garden ? I would also entertain that you gentlemen are "smarter than the average bear", and are prepared for much more than average people. Do you usually fare better than other people in your area ?

LOL YOU GUYS CRACK ME UP!!!!! I AM NOT A FLORIDA NATIVE, I PERSONALLY WAS RAISED IN MICHIGAN UNTIL I GRADUATED AND THEN JOINED THE NAVY. I SPENT MY ENTIRE NAVAL CAREER HERE IN JACKSONVILLE UNTIL I GOT OUT A FEW YEARS AFTER I GOT BACK FROM DERSERT STORM. ONCE OUT I DECIDED THAT I WAS NOT GOING HOME TO MICHIGAN AND SHOVEL SNOW. THE ONLY THING I HAVE TO DEAL WITH NOW IS THE HURRICANES. BELIEVE ME I WILL TAKE A HURRICANE ANYDAY. THE MIDWEST HAS TORNADO ALLEY AND THE WEST COAST IS A JOKE. YOU EITHER GET SHAKEN AND CRUSHED TO DEATH, FALL INTO A SINK HOLE, SWALLOWED UP BY A MUD SLIDE, WASHED OFF THE SIDE OF A HILL INTO THE OCEAN, OR LAST BUT NOT LEAST EVERYTHING BURNS DOWN AROUND YOU. I CAN'T BELIEVE PEOPLE STILL LIVE IN CALF.

NOW TO THE CASE IN POINT. THE BERM HOUSE DOES HAVE SOME ATTRACTIVE QUALITIES AND I AM STILL RESEARCHING SOME OF THOSE OPTIONS. AS FAR AS HURRICANES THE BEST THING ABOUT THEM IS THAT YOU CAN PLAN FOR THEM. THEY ARE NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT LIKE A DAMN TORNADO OR EARTHQUAKE. I MEAN YOU GO TO BED IN YOUR BEDROOM AND THEN YOU WAKE UP IN THE NEXT COUNTY AFTER SOME TORNADO NICELY RELOCATES YOUR BEDROOM FOR YOU. THAT IS IF YOU WAKE UP AT ALL. IF I BUILD A FREE STANDING HOME IT WILL BE BUILT WITH AT LEAST 2 FOOT SQUARE FOOTERS AROUND THE ENTIRE HOUSE WITH REENFORCED REBAR FOR THE WALLS EVERY 18 TO 24 INCHES. THAT REBAR WILL RUN UP THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE CINDER BLOCK WALLS AND TIE INTO THE ROOF. THE BLOCKS WILL THEN BE FILLED WITH A LIQUID FILL CONCRETE IN ESSENCE GIVING ME AN 8" THICK REINFORCED WALL AROUND THE ENTIRE HOUSE. THE ROOF WILL BE COMPLETELY CONSTRUCTED OF STEEL BEAMS AND TRUSSES BOLTED ONTO THE REENFORCED REBAR UP THROUGH THE WALLS. THE STEEL ROOF WILL OF COURSE BE ATTATCHED TO THE TRUSSES AND GOD WILLING IT WILL BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND A HURRICANE. OF COURSE THERE WILL BE STEEL ROLL DOWN STORM SHUTTERS TO COVER THE WINDOWS. IF I AM ABLE TO HAVE A WIND GENERATOR I WILL MAKE SURE THAT IT IS REMOVED AT THE LAST MINUTE PRIOR TO THE STORM HITTING. AGAIN I WILL PROBABLY BUILD THE HOME FURTHER INLAND THAN I AM RIGHT NOW SO HOPEFULLY THE WINDS WILL HAVE DECREASED BY THE TIME IT GETS TO ME. JACKSONVILLE HAS NOT HAD A HURRICANE HIT HERE IN PROBABLY 40 YEARS SO IF YOU FOLLOW MR. MURPHYS LAW WE ARE DUE FOR ONE. ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO I THINK IT WAS HURRICANE DORA CAME THROUGH 50 MILES OFF SHORE AND TOOK OUT THE JACKSONVILLE BEACH PIER BUT THAT WAS ABOUT IT. ONE OF THE BEST THINGS ABOUT LIVING HERE IN FLORIDA IS THAT I HAVE NOT HAD TO TURN ON MY HEATER THIS YEAR, NOT EVEN ONCE. YES IT GOT DOWN INTO THE LOW 20'S OVERNIGHT BUT THAT JUST MEANT THAT IT WAS GREAT CUDDLE UP WITH YOUR HONEY WEATHER. I SCRAPED A LITTLE FROST OFF THE WINDSHIELD THIS MORNING AND THEN WAS ABLE TO FIRE UP MY GRILL IN SHORTS AND T-SHIRT THIS AFTERNOON, GOTTA LOVE FLORIDA.!!!

BUT AS I SAID BEFORE IN AN EARLIER POST I AM AFRAID OF THE RISING SEA LEVEL. I DON'T MEAN TO SOUND LIKE CHICKEN LITTLE BUT A FEW WEEKS AGO I WAS WATCHING "ARMAGEDDON WEEK" ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL AND IT GOT ME TO THINKING. NOW I AM BY NOW MEANS AN END OF THE WORLD KIND OF GUY AND I DONT THINK THE WORLD WILL END IN 2012 AS PREDICTED BUT I GUESS IN THE BACK OF MY MIND SHOULD SOMETHING RESEMBLING THAT HAPPEN I WANT TO AT LEAST KNOW THAT MY HOME WILL BE ABLE TO FUNCTION WITHOUT RELYING ON OUTSIDE POWER SOURCES FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME. HENCE ANOTHER REASON THAT I WANT MY HOUSE OFF GRID. SO IF THE EXPERTS ARE RIGHT AND GREENLAND MELTS AND THE OTHER POLAR ICE MELTS IT COULD RAISE SEA LEVEL BY UP TO 40 FEET. IF THAT HAPPENS ALMOST ALL OF SOUTH FLORIDA AND EVERY CITY ALONG THE COAST OF EVERY COUNTRY ON A COAST WILL BE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE. THAT IS THE REASON THAT I AM CONSIDERING BUILDING THIS HOUSE IN THE BLUE RIDGE MOUNTAINS. WHY BLUE RIDGE YOU ASK??? BECAUSE IF YOU WERE TO BELIEVE THE HISTORY CHANNEL AND A MAJOR POLAR SHIFT HAPPENS IT MAY CAUSE VOLCANIC ERRUPTIONS. THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS ARE PART OF THE MOUNTAIN CHAIN OF THE PACIFIC RING OF FIRE AND DORMANT VOLCANOS MAY ERRUPT. NOW IS ALL OF THIS BEING PARANOID, YES PROBABLY, BUT IF I AM GOING TO BUILD THE HOUSE ANYWAY I MAY AS WELL BUILD IT HOW AND WHERE IT WILL DO THE MOST GOOD. IF NONE OF THE PREDICTIONS FOR 2012 EVER HAPPEN, SO BE IT, I WILL STILL HAVE A GREAT HOUSE THAT IS GREEN AND GOOD FOR THE ENVIORNMENT.

NO GUYS I AM NOT A CLOSET WEIRDO, I JUST LIKE TO PLAN FOR THE WORST AND HOPE FOR THE BEST. THAT BEING SAID YOU GUYS ALL HAVE SOME FANTASTIC IDEAS AND YOU MAKE ME FEEL LIKE A MORON FOR NOT HAVING COME UP WITH THESE IDEAS MYSELF. BUT IF THAT WAS THE CASE THEN I WOULD NOT BE HERE ASKING FOR HELP. I AM REALLY LEARNING ALOT SO I THANK YOU FOR THAT. ESPECIALLY THE IDEA OF SNATCHING UP A TREADMILL AND USING THE MOTOR FOR A GENERATOR, CUDOS FOR THAT IDEA. KEEP EM COMIN GUYS I WILL CATCH UP SOON.

MUZZYRAP -- Before you get too set with your plans for a mountain home keep in mind that wildland fires have increased with drought conditions. I think you've seen some of that in Florida. It's also pretty obvious out here in CA as we enter our third drought year. Scientists are currently talking about the high rate at which trees are dying in California countrysides. Enough of this climate change stuff could see that happening in the southern Appalachians.

The current rules of thumb for protecting your home from fire call for fire resistant wall and roof materials, window coverings and no wood decks. Clearance of all but low well watered ornamental vegetation and isolated trees is 30 ft. with no trees actually over or touching the house. From 30 to 100 ft (more on hillsides) trees and brush thinned out and a 3:1 ratio between the top of ground vegetation and the lowest tree branch. An old timer in my area says also that there should be no tree top above a 1:10 (5.7 degrees) line of sight from the edge of the foundation of the building (incl decks) for 300 feet out.

Walls and roofs should be insulated and fireproof. Out here spanish tile (not good in hurricanes or tornados) or steel roofs are best and stucco is pretty popular. I'm considering a new wall covering of some fireproof composition material over an extra 2 inches of insulation. I have a composition shingle roof that is fairly fire resistant; but if I had it to do over again I'd go with the steel raised seam roofing.

Think about the clearance issue before you buy a piece of property next to a guy who loves the grove of pine trees around his house. Fellow up the road from me has just such a situation 30 feet from his house. Scary .... The world is full of people who just figure it won't happen to them and even if it does the insurance company will pay for it all.

Ed Weldon

There was a comment made here about an overhang to block the sun. If the home is going to be in the way of high winds, think about this. If you have an overhang of only 1 ft, and the wind is blowing from that side, the uplift on the roof is tremendous. On top of this, if you have fascia boards that hang below the underside of the roof, you have trapped more pressurized air.

If the goal is to block the sun, use window treatments. They are safer in the wind. There are also "hurricane resistant" windows available that are designed to stop repeated objects slamming into them. The price is not that much different. South Florida codes require hurricane resistant windows, or hurricane resistant shutters on all new construction, or major remodeling jobs.

Instead of a wide overhang Sunsetter retractable awnings fold up in a neat package against the wall of a building and make great shade. They greatly reduce radiant heat.

We have two of them, one manual and one electric. I'd say the electric ones are the best bet for places where summer thunderstorms are common.

They usually run sales during the slow winter season. We bought the electric one in December, 2008, at 30% off through Costco's internet sales arm.

Ed Weldon

I have a 12' X 24" patio that my wife would love to have under a Sunsetter.

Hello Ed,

Where homes were constructed with out porches to shade a slab or deck from the hot California Sun, the Sun Setter retractable awning is suitable investment, but simply does not add much to the value of a home other than convenience. And shade does not keep the mosquitoes out, that requires screening and screening is better installed permanently in aluminum frames attached to the overhead structure, posts and slab or deck below. Where the shade effect is not enough, roll up bamboo blinds work just fine.

TMF

TMF -- You're right about screens and mosquitos. The Sunsetter doesn't help much there. The add-on screen setup they sell is klugey and fairly defeats the purpose of being able to roll it up fast when a storm approaches. But as a quickly deployed sunshade it can work very nicely for some situations. I'll just describe our applications as examples. (We're retired and live in central CA near the coast and have mosquitos only in the cool spring months)

My wife spends a lot of time at the computer. Her desk is next to a big window on the south wall of our family room with a deck outside and no shade trees near. The awning eliminates most of the thermal radiation in the summer while allowing the windows to give a clear view.

My crowded workshop is in the garage. I often work outside the garage door on larger projects in a hot sunny corner of the driveway. That's where the other awning is set up hung from the wall above the garage door. Being retractable it allows me to position my motorhome next to the garage when I work on it as well as close it up against the winter storm winds we get in CA.

Ed Weldon

Hello Bob,

As a Contractor who has been the Architect and Engineer as well as the builder of Cracker/Country styled homes, in "Florida" I can assure you that well anchored porches are just as resistant to hurricane damage as is the remainder of the structure. And they do a fine job of shading the building from the hot Florida sun.

As for the "South Florida Building Codes" they un-necessairly add about $10,000 to the cost of an average 2000 sq. ft. home. The Southern Standard Building Code was quite substantial and well constructed homes that were constructed to that code sustained very little hurricane damage.

Hurricane Hugo exposed in adequate construction practices regarding rebar/concrete reinforcment, truss anchoring that was improperly installed , "if installed at all" Windows that were not installed as per MFG. instructions and only held in place with a few screws and a perimeter of stucco on the exterior and drywall on the interior. Tie beams often had no rebar in them at all and the truss traps were improperly placed, permitting the uplift to occur. Roof sheeting was 7/16, installed with staples set too deep into the surface and often never was stapled at all and only held in place with a couple of starter nails, and to make matters worse often whenever enough staples , as per Mfg. and code requirements were applied they never found the truss below.

Three Tab Shingles were often not the seal down type, were the least expensive utility grade, and then installed with only one or two roofing nails, that sometimes were installed so as to be nailed into the joints between the sheeting.

I could go on for another 30 lines regarding the piss poor construction found after the damage was done but the single most damaging effect of the Hurricane Hugo, was the more than 200 tornadoes that came ashore when the hurricane made land fall. This is a well documented fact. One of my now deceased friends was an Air Traffic Controller on duty that night at MIA. He told me that the controllers lost count at about 200 tornadoes. Nothing survives a direct strike from a tornado. Making matters worse, most of the destruction in the Homestead are were older trailer homes, not constructed to any particular wind resistant code.

You mentioned "uplift", only an Air Craft Engineer is capable of dividing the Roof into its various sections and determining just where lift may occur from winds striking the structure, and from "which particular direction". The damn South Florida Building Code "SUCKS"

To shorten this up, common sense was never applied by the DCA when it demanded stronger requirements. They did it to ease the minds of future property owners, and the insurance companies. SO, these homes are over constructed by thousands of dollars, and for every thousand dollars the price of these buildings cost more than necessary, you have knocked about 1% of the would be home buyers out of ever achieving the American Dream.

Enough about the SFBC.

TooMuchFun

Thank you for your enlightened view of the SFBC. I have earned a living as a mechanic all these years, and this was by first venture into any exterior building repairs. When I installed the 2x12 fascia boards around the house I was encouraged to shorten them to the point that they only hung 1" below the edge. This was to prevent a big lip from hanging down to trap wind. It seemed to make sense to me. Don't ask me anything too technical, I wanted to install the boards with nuts and bolts.

Good Morning Bob;

While you might experience a little uplift pressure beneath the facia 2X12 the entire area would only fill with a little compressed air and the remainder of the wind would simply blow beneath this compressed air, as it cannot build huge pressures unless the area is significantly confined, or very large.

When I was building structures from wood, especially post and beam systems I found that Architects and Engineers alike always specified huge bolts with washers and lock washers and nuts to match. They often required that the bolts be torqued to standards for such large bolts. The problem with this concept is that the softer woods that were used in this construction would compress so much as to deform the wood. We likely could reach these torque values if we were building with hard woods.

Another issue that used to piss me off when they, Archs. and Engs., would come around nit picking the work just to establish that they had made an inspection and presence on the work site was their "special attention" that was paid to these bolts and nuts. When they started questioning torque values and procedures I generally shut them up by explaining that the wood chosen for the job was at least 10 times weaker than the hardware and would fail long before any bolted assembly.

Then I would inform them that the larger holes needed for the over sized bolts actually weakened the joints as half of them would be placed within 3"/4" of the end of the timber and would tear out easily and begin the total destruction of the joint. Then I would state that hardened 3/8" bolts would have a produced a superior assembly over that which they had designed. They never could find any reasonable responses for my redresses.

As for your facia issue, "If" you are unsatisfied, you could get some light gage steel angle metal, about 16/14 gage is good enough. with the short leg about 1 1/2" long and the other leg about 6" long with holes punched in them so that you could install 5/16" carrige bolts through the face, 1 ea. and another near the other end of the long leg. Do this on each joint that you can get to. It will greatly increase the resistance to wind damage at this area, will likely make you feel better about it, especially as the facia is likely only nailed into the ends of the rafters/trusses.

Good look next hurricane season!

Toomuchfun