Wrappers: More Expensive than the Product Inside?

I've been told that hemp contains silica crystals that are extremely abrasive and damage most machinery. Does anyone know whether this is true?

Yuval This is the kind of problem that would require giving people an option to promote the solutions. The solution for reducing the packaging is already an accepted practice in many places. Do as many grocery retailers have done and promote the practice of buyers supplying their own containers for transportation of the goods. If the purchaser prefers they can pay additional for packaging or choose to save by supplying their own reusable containers. For the greatest impact manufacturers of items used for supplying your own packaging would have to make the quality of product that would withstand many cycles of use instead of their current quality that is only intended to get your money and add to the waste problem by building in a limited amount of use before failure. With the proper reusable items in place then manufacturers of many items could bulk package and in the process they would eliminate many expensive steps of manufacturing along with lowering the shipping charges. The technology already exists for making this type of packaging and handling as safe as the current methods of packaging but again you have to convince the public that these procedures of sterilization are safe. So let's see were we stand, fewer materials purchased, fewer machines needed, fewer products scraped for poor packaging quality, less energy to manufacture and ship, less space to retail, less trash to handle, this is something that would have an impact on many aspects of industry and their suppliers. I feel that one could go on & on elaborating on each point but I will leave it to you to think through the obvious. Now if we can tackle the need for refrigeration and be green in doing it. J.Conway

Liked the way you laid that out. I personally tend to think that reduction of packaging should be integrated with the initial thoughts while designing a product, instead of relating to packaging alternatives from the completed product onward.

The product and it's packaging should not be separate design issues.

Reducing environmental loads should be part of product conception from step one, instead of trying to compensate for something related to as a given fact.

Let's go to my initial example, and take it as a test-case. Everybody says "You need to wrap snacks in order to preserve freshness and keep germs away" - as if there's no possible way to market or distribute snacks without individual packaging - even for minute portions.

Is there no possible way ? - then let's go back to the design phase, and try to re-configure this out.

And suppose we have to wrap every bit of candy bar.

Why not wrap it in some bio-degradable, say, some corn-made wrapper, or even better, make these wrappers suitable for pet of farm animal consumption - as food.

Let human wrapper become animal feed of some sort. It is not that far fetched.

My point being that packaging should be innate to the initial product design - not a separate issue

Woolworth (RIP) used to sell Pick'n'Mix sweets, and many smaller shops still do. It doesn't exactly solve the waste problem their, but it does limit waste a bit. Interestingly, kids seem to enjoy the process of scooping their selection (it extend the pleasure beyond just taste). One paper bag instead of several plastic/foil wrappers is a start.

Edible wrappers on sweets is a good idea; a suitable wrapper could be an integral part of the treat, not just an edible extra. It only needs some dispensing device/holder to allay fears of contamination, and somebody could be onto a marketing winner that's environment friendly too.

Many supermarkets here sell salad type stuff (Coleslaw etc) out of self serve dispensers. Two problems ; the things are wide open to everyone breathing dribbling over the stuff, and you have to use plastic containers provided. Both those issues could be solved by better design/sales practice.

Tetrapacks are ubiquitous in supermarkets. Most people drive to the huge out of town ones, it would be feasible to use glass containers. Milk is still available (delivered to the door) in glass bottles. Most of the bottle are washed and re-used. No reason why supermarkets can't do the same, though they may need to add a deposit/return charge on the container. Returning waste is OT so I'll leave that one.

Bio-degradable is fine, but it's important to make the distinction from stuff that degrades in sunlight (eg carrier bags that wont rot in landfill).

The Soylent approach is good too, though I don't think people will be easily persuaded. Not all.

Going back to the pick'n'mix concept ; Supermarkets could sell standardised containers. People then use these and fill them from a batch dispenser that tags the container with the appropriate price for whatever it's been filled with. Baked beans/shampoo/whatever. Sounds mad, and the supermarkets would have to invest in dispensing machines etc, but it's possible. At least the hygiene-neurotic types would know their own container is clean.

For the tropics, the pick and mix dispensers would need to be improved over what is currently used because of cockroaches. The little perishers breed incredibly in this climate and can get into anything.

I realized this problem after talking to some Supermarket cleaners.

Apparently, after hours they find cockies running everywhere inside the shops.

Incidentally, this isn't necessarily due to poor hygiene in the shops. These little beasts breed outside and get into everything, usually unnoticed. This is why I favor continued wrapping of consumer sized portions, but, as Yuval has pointed out, there is no reason the wrapping couldn't be biodegradable.

I agree with Yuval that packaging should be considered as part of the overall product "design", not tacked on by marketing later.

On the topic of biodegradability, if all garbage had the metals removed and was then shredded, inert plastics where buried would simply help improve the soil structure (much like the polystyrene beads used in potting mix) and whenever exposed to the sun it will become brittle and break down. If this approach was used, garbage disposal would become less of a problem.

Metals are, of course, readily recyclable.

I like the biodegradable edible wrapper idea that Yuval posted, but as you point out, the wrapper becomes coackroach chow...

When I was in college, I helped start a food coop with some of my more hippy dippy friends, And the first thing that we learned was how to double twist a plast ic bag for bulk products (oatmeal, flour,nuts what have you) to keep the roaches and other vermin(no offense Vermin) from inisinuating themselves into the package.

Ahhh, The memories...

milo

The options discussed here really apply to two different business models. Don't package/degradable package/own container are feasible strategies for the buy local and fresh business model. This is small enterprise. Recycling plan for the non-biodegradable package is feasible for the mass-produced long shelf life big business model.

Both business models and product types have their advantages. Consumer demand for ecologically friendlier alternatives will tend to support the small local enterprises. Is there any chance that the hermetically-sealed long-lived snack will just disappear? I sort of doubt it. There will always be a demand for that, unless the economic system that we're in completely collapses in which case we will be making our own snacks, big time.

The present wrappings for eg a chocolate bar are mainly brightly colored plastic. They are not huge on the each scale; there is an advantage eg when hiking that it is no big deal to carry the empty wrappers back for recycling. The question is, how do you recycle this type of plastic; what products could be made from it and how. I know they are not presently recyclable but that is about the recycling industry I suspect, more than the type of plastic used.

What was your basis for stating the wrapper for a candy bar costs more than the product inside? I am not aware of any of the typical candy bars or candy pieces that sell in the USA for $0.75-$0.99 each have anything close to an equal cost let alone the the wrapper is more expensive. Biodegradability is being vigorously pursued with some of the packaging materials mentioned in the discussions including corn based PLA.

The discussion does make people think about something we each consume with some frequency.

You are absolutely right! So stop buying snack and candy bars in aluminum foil wrappers. Stop buying blueberry muffins (I love blueberry muffins) if they are sold in heavy plastic containers. Even energy saving light bulbs are packaged in heavy celluloid or plastic containers. Stop buying drinking water, juice and soft drinks sold in plastic bottles. Bring your own bags when you go grocery shopping. Stop accepting groceries in plastic bags. Buy liquor in glass bottles. Do not even think about liquor sold in plastic bottles.

We are the consumers. The manufacturers and grocery stores will be governed by our choices. If we don't buy it, they won't sell it. So, why don't we all smarten up...and help clean up our planet.

I know there are a lot of products that the container costs more than the product. Just look at over the counter medication, with all the tamper proof stuff.

I have a friend that worked for a high-end juice producer. She told me that the bottle, label, and cover with the tamper proof seal, costs more than 10 times the product inside.

Another packaging issue, is for loss-prevention. Go buy a SD chip at Wal-Mart. The package is more than 100 times the size of the product!

As consumers, we do have choices, and can contribute, albeit in a small way.

Don't buy bottled water. If you must, buy a large container and use a reuseable, washable personal bottle. Same with juice.

Don't by individully wraped stuff.

You can re-use some things. Like wash out a plastic milk container, and use it for your ice tea.

I don't do this stuff to save the plane. I do it as it works out way cheaper for me.

Interesting.

I don't do this stuff to save the plane. I do it as it works out way cheaper for me

I'll resist a giggle about the plane(t)

Making stuff cheaper by improving packaging is the way to change things. The two thing don't have to be mutually exclusive, but maybe the big companies want to squeeze extra profit though 'added value'. Extra packaging = extra profit ?

Aldi is one of the cheapest food shops going ; last week I noticed they were flogging a plastic bag containing 6 small peeled & washed potatoes for about 50p. 6 bloody spuds, peeled and bloody washed then packed in an individual plastic bag! Gordon Bennett ! A year or two back, one of the supermarkets was outed for idiotic packaging ; handfuls of select baby vegetables were flown all the way to South Africa, tied up into a pretty bundle with some green grass, then flown back to their UK shelves. Another sent apples there and back, just to polish them. Can't recall those links, but here's some prawn madness.

"Director of scampi, Mike Mitchell"

Now I've heard everything. A friggin Director of Scampi. That must really impress the birds at the pub.

SACRILEGE! Mr Wiley. SACRILEGE.

We will be remembered as the stingy generation for the dearth of good stuff that will be found in the landfills of our era. All the goodies will not make it to the landfills, and so they will have to move lots of bags of soiled diapers in order to get the one can or two that makes it thru.

I am not saying that what we are doing doesn;t make good economic sense for us now, it does. But the poor gleaners of the future will find not much of worth beyond soiled disposable diapers, doggie poo, and those candy bar wrappers that Yuval used to start this conversation.

milo

Yes indeed, i can just see archeologists in several thousand years discovering bags of soiled pampers, mummified poo, obviously a society that worshiped elimination. prayed at the big white phone, which is sort of true for university students

I hope they are wearing a breather system, because that baby poo will be really ripe!

The half life of a Twinky is 5000 years, funny it closely resembles the main part of this babbling...

"As consumers, we do have choices, and can contribute, albeit in a small way."

And as consumers, we often choose convenience and choice, not the cheapest. I think that this is the essential basis of Yuval's statement of the problem.

"I have a friend that worked for a high-end juice producer. She told me that the bottle, label, and cover with the tamper proof seal, costs more than 10 times the product inside."

No argument here, Tea at my house costs next to nothing, out it can cost a couple of bucks. We are paying for convenience and delivery at that place and time because packaging gives us that choice. Recognizing that consumers value choices (degrees of freedom) is what earned Paul Krugman his Nobel in economics.

"Go buy a SD chip at Wal-Mart."

No. as you said earlier: "As consumers, we do have choices," I choose not to buy from Walmart, thanks.

The object of the act is not to have a lot of cheap juice, its to have high end juice (what the consumer wants) where the consumer wants it. That necessitates packaging.

Same with my $2 tea or those $5 Lattes or whatever they are called.

Build in a market mechanism to reward recycling or minimizing that excess packaging and it will come. Hopefully one better than this:

But as a consumer, I value my ability to choose, and having my juice when or where I want it in convenient and quality controlled packaging is how I vote with my $. I don't see packaging as a "monster," I see it as an enabler for a healthy and preferred quality of life.

milo

A banana has it's own biodegradable wrapper. Apples have edible wrappers. Grapes have a handy "rack" to hold them that is biodegradable. Candy isn't good for you anyway.

Shop at a bulk food store for dry goods.

Buy locally produced products. It reduces the amount of packaging required for shipping.

Small steps help ....and always recycle.

And Car-men (Even Electra ? ) Cycle .

Ever thought about the big plastic wrappers used for packaging engine oils ?

If you get a coke in McD's, you get an individually wrapped straw. When the person serving sticks the silly plastic lid on it, why can't they just thrust an un-packaged straw into the horrible stuff. They put all the **** on a tray, so why not develop one with an insulated lid, forget the wrappers, and just chuck the tray through a washer when collected. I once saw a slightly confuse old lady asking for cutlery in a McD, but maybe she wasn't so mad. People would soon get bored of nicking re-usable china/whatever mugs. And what's with the silly card mats they put on the trays - If a car wash can recycle water, so can McD's.

About the only time I use sugar is with coffee. If it was somehow blended in with instant coffee granules so as not to settle out, I'd buy the stuff. If the shops can sell umpteen exotic brands, they could do that with bog-standard cheap stuff - O Sugar, 1 Sugar, 2 Sugar.

If the UK government can force umpteen types of food labelling directives, they could require each package to state it's 'carbon footprint'. The supermarkets would find ways to weasel around it, but it would make them start worrying.

Unfortunately the following link has a Hindu reference at the top, but it applies to all companies across the globe. Ignore the national references, they're irrelevant, and read where the enemy is coming from. Check out some of the pathetic responses to packaging excess at the bottom of this link. It goes on.

Compelling suppliers to accept packaging returned to point of sale would give them an incentive to think. Price hike would come first, but competition would follow and they might take it seriously. I'd positively enjoy returning waste that my local council won't recycle. If the government seriously want to create jobs, here is an opportunity for them to do so. Supermarkets already partake in government training schemes, so what's so bad with them employing more people to collect/sort returned waste. Forcing young people who don't want to, to stay on the formal educational ladder (post 16) is a waste of time. Hands on experience in a work environment is better, and needn't be seen as a 'slave-labour' type thing. I beg to differ with the numb-nuts at Whitehall that every young person must end up with a Micky Mouse degree in some nonsensical subject. < sorry, political rant excess >

Anyone remember Chitty Chitty Bang Bang ?

Caractacus:
Don't waste your pucker on some all day sucker
And don't try a toffee or cream
If you seek perfection in sugar confection
Well there's something new on the scene
A mouth full of cheer
A sweet without peer
A musical morsel supreme!
Toot Sweets!
Toot Sweets!
The candies you whistle, the whistles you eat.
Toot Sweets!
Toot Sweets!
The eatable, tweetable treats!

Hi Kris. You ol devil you.

My idea of Hell is to have to return along with my fellow 299,999,999 fellow citizens, used expired or otherwise expired discards on a separate trip. Talk about expanding carbon footprint.

My second idea of Hell is to have to follow special instructions and multiple steps for segregating, sorting and putting out trash. My daughter lived in Guelph Ontario for a year, (college) and there were multiple color bags, multiple rules for what went in said bags, and multiple days of pick up. There were fines for non compliance. Welcome to hell for milo.

I was on a waste committee in my current community back in the early 1990-1992, and our vision for this was, to paraphrase akio morita from SONY, to make it simple enough to fit on the palm of a hand.

we have a central processing facility for our county, we do not have every citizen doing redundant sorting and transportation, do not have multiple runs of collection and still recycle recyclables. Currently we are landfilling, but are building an addition to turn waste to solid fuel for energy recovery. We allow economies of scale to work, rather than play with our refuse like peasants gleaning for their next meal in our own trash.

CENTRALPROCESSINGPLANT

This may make me the hated " Imperialist Yuppie," but frankly, I'd rather be workingon a project that adds value to my industry, clients or community, than sorting my damn trash. I call this principle, the principle of operating at my Highest and best use.

Sorting tea bags (wet, red bag) from old scrap copies ( blue box) from meat scraps, (True garbage, Transarent bag) Is not something I will ever "excel" at. Oh, where the hell am I supposed to put my dead AA batteries, -That is a special pick up third tuesday of the month!

I'll pass, thanks. Your vision of environmental compliance is my version of Hell.

milo " I put the cans out and they take it from there"

Talk about expanding carbon footprint

That's cool, Milo, I hear what you're saying.

We have widespread sorting/collection 'at-the-doorstep', for want of a better phrase. I have 1 big blue bag for paper/card, a black box for cans/bottles/some plastics, 1 wheelie bin for landfill, and 1 wheelie bin for garden waste. The bin men have to check it all as they crawl along the roads. A lot of it is enviro/economic nonsense; on top of all the miles the waste travels in processing, people also drive miles to personally dump a box full of crap at a municipal dump that may be miles away.

Luckily Yuval's thread is about preventing that stuff needing to happen in the first place, I just veered off topic a bit (moi ?).

All smiles here

YUP

milo

Does anyone know of a recycling operation that makes a profit, or even pays for itself?

Perhaps I am being cynical, but I feel most of these operations are basically a "feel good, save the planet" type response with little reality to them.

I believe in recycling where it makes sense, but most of these operations don't seem to have any sound basis.

It makes no sense to recycle if it costs more than you save.

If all garbage had steel removed and was then either shredded or crushed, it could be buried. Putrescible material would decompose. Non putrescible would act as a soil extender, keeping the structure open and allowing aerobic operation.

Eventually, the old dumps can be turned into parks, gardens etc, to the benefit of everyone.

That may work down your way, where (I assume) you could dig holes for a few hundred years without making too much impression on the land, but round here we've filled up most of the holes that were already there, and it's getting hard to find new places to dig 'em.

I suppose we could always build temporary walls and make islands of the stuff.

Probably wouldn't be economically practical.

The trouble with garbage is that it is a low value item, so disposal needs to be cheap.

One suggestion I have heard is that we bury garbage in a subduction zone. Natural geological processes will then bury it deeper.

Unfortunately, not all areas have these zones conveniently nearby.

You are right, in my area, land for landfill is only politically difficult to obtain. The physical supply is no great problem.

Another advantage of my location is that the year round high soil temperatures mean that decomposition is rapid, so landfill becomes available for use more quickly than in colder climates.

"cost" is a very flexible word.

Nucor steel claims to be a recycling company. They are certainly profitable.

If you mean "municipal" or Consumer recycling operation, than one issue may be that their charter or mission is not to be profitale, but to provide a service as a utility.

Amazon .com lost money for years to build their infrastructure, they're profitable now!

I agree that it makes no sense to recycle if the costs for the effort are more than the benefit. But it would still make sense and serve the public interest to implement the lowest cost highest recovery per dollar solution. Thats what we did in medina see the link in my earlier post above. Our processing plant assures that no lead acid batteries or metallics, or oil get to the landfill. We're working on a trash to cash process to turn much of the remainder into fuel for utility. The Air Quality boys might be a touch offended, but most of that waste is paper which is today's carbon, not fossil carbon. But it is carbon none the less.

Ultimately Yuval's ( wheres the smiley face with the mustache when you need it?) original comment holds, about the volume of wrappers and packaging being problematic. We capture them at the Processing plant, and enjoy the benefits of sanitary, protected foodstuffs.

milo

That's right. As a matter of fact, most recyclers are private entrepreneurs, and some of them are extremely profitable, even methane extractors in garbage dump sites.

Thanks Milo:

I was just curious about the whole recycling operation.

It's nice that at least some are able to do it profitably, and it is also true that worthwhile operations are often unprofitable initially while the methods, organization and markets are being sorted out.

I would like to see more recycling done profitably and sensibly, but don't want to pay too high a premium for this to be done.

Yuval's original point about excessive packaging is a good one. The first step is to stop producing unnecessary garbage.

Next is to recycle what we reasonably can.

Finally the remainder needs to be disposed of as cheaply and safely as possible.

Trouble is, the devil's in the detail, which varies from area to area and situation to situation.

My county started a thing they call the "Green Routine" a few months ago. They purchased two bins for every residence, one black and one green. They delivered these to everyone along with a small green pail with a lid and handle which goes under the sink. They also delivered a large, fairly heavy duty bag for paper waste including newspapers, cardboard etc.

We buy brown compostable bags which fit nicely into the green pail. All kitchen waste which is capable of decomposing is placed in the little green pail. When it is full, the bag is placed into the green bin outside.

We buy blue bags which are used to hold plastics, tin cans and non-returnable bottles.

For us, collection day is always on Wednesday. Most of the time, the only thing I take to the curb is the newspaper bag. Maybe about once every four weeks the plastics bag goes out for pickup. The big bins are never full in our household, so I usually go several weeks without putting them out, although I notice some folks seem to have their bins chuck full every week. When the weather gets warm again, I expect to be taking the stinky stuff out a little more often.

The county provides a comprehensive list of which materials go in which bin. Garbage pickup is every week with black and green bins alternating. The truck picks up the bin from the curb and dumps it.

According to a recent article in the local paper, the volume of material going to landfill has been reduced approximately 80% since starting the Green Routine. It really isn't a lot of bother to comply and the payoff is definitely worth the effort.

What a waste of time, not that is not what happens here. What I can't understand is why they don't take a lesson from the metal recyclers, sort everything by using different speed belts. Our local metal recycling company has a really big shredder that will accept almost anything, followed by a smaller one, everything goes on conveners and is sorted into nice shinny piles of scrap of like metals. So why can't this be done with household waste?

Oh almost forgot, city stopped recycling plastics, claimed they could not find a buyer, funny thing buyers started coming out of the wood work, turned out city was trying to make recycling a profit point.