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Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/01/2009 1:07 PM

This solution came up a few times already on CR4. Can someone please explain this trick to me.

I must have wasted quite a lot of money by using too big pipes.

The setup is as follows:-

Note you can choose your own units and figures

A reservoir with a constant level of H above the discharge point.

A D diam pipe runs horizontally for L to a pelton wheel. At a pressure P at a flow Q at max efficiency E.

Driving a alternator delivering W power.

The W is the maximum available from the system.

The object of this exercise is to show that by reducing the pipe size to x% of D for about 50% L would increase P and therefore W without changing anything else.

Additional losses other than friction can be ignored or considered on both calculations as you wish.

Additional rules

L should be about 5 times M

Looking for a reduction in pipe size say 20%

The smaller pipe must be of the same type and class.

GA for the best cheats as well (maybe not there may be children watching).

Any units can be used as long as it is metric (ignore this)

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#1

Re: Increasing the pressure by decreasing the pipe size

03/01/2009 9:52 PM

I will try to explain in this way, the calculations are a bit tedious and involves a bit of complex equations/

- reservoir with a constant level of H above the discharge point - It has a bit of Potential Energy available based on Height H.

- This energy is converted to KE at the end of the penstock/ Turbine.

- While carrying the water from source to turvine (through the pipes), there is an Energy loss due to friction (pipe), direction change (elbows, pipe bends), Pipe size changes etc (in fact anything on that pipe including pipe itself will have a head loss) say it is ΔH

- Hence the Head available to be converted to KE is (H-ΔH)

- With the efficiency of the Turbine ηt it is converted to rotational motion

- With the ηg - Efficiency of Generator it is converted to Electrical Energy.

Thus the Electricity generated

E α ηtηg(H-ΔH)

Out of these obviously

ηt dependes on the velocity and quantity of the water available (Q) ie the KE available Vs it is designed for,

Same for ηg

H is the starting point.

ΔH depends on Q, Pipe Diameter and other factors as explained above and must be minimized for maximum energy available at the turbine stage.

To minimize ΔH -

The velocity should be low (lower friction loss), The lower velocity also reduces the Re (Reynolds No) and improves the flow

Bends, etc should be avoided.

Thus if you want the maximum energy available at the Turbine, pipe dia should be more and not less.

People misinterpret the Pressure as the Energy.

If the flow is stopped, the pressure available (what ever may be the pips dia) will be the Head.

If pipe dia is reduced, the pressure will sharply drop as the flow increases so nett energy available will reduce.

What is usually done (and what is causing the confuson) is bring the water through larger pipe. In the end put a nozzle to generate the velocity (for impulse turbines) for reaction turbines you need not do anything. The flow will be controlled by it.

An example may be in order

Put a polythene (I thing the one we use for aquariums. garden watering the flexible transparent one) pipe of 1/2" say some 4-5 ft on your tap and in the end close the flow by fingers as we do to spray water on plants - and see the jet available .

Now you just put a 6mm pipe of same length and do the same thing, you don't close the end now - what is the throw of the spray ?

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Increasing the pressure by decreasing the pipe size

03/02/2009 5:12 AM

Hi sb - GA but off topic -

The objective is to show that one can get more pressure by reducing the pipe size.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Increasing the pressure by decreasing the pipe size

03/02/2009 7:59 AM

Got It wrong .

You want the equation - convincing enough - that shows that by increasing the feed pipe to say 3" the power available may be increased from 100MW to 400MW .

This really requires some thinking. And it is an interesting idea.

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#4

Re: Increasing the pressure by decreasing the pipe size

03/02/2009 9:52 AM

Am I out in left field or is the following the case? I can't see how you would increase the pressure at the inlet of the turbine by decreasing the pipe size. Velocity yes, pressure no.

Considering this form of Bernoulli's eqn. if the top of the reservoir is point 1, then you can say that P1 is atmospheric and V1 is zero and leaves the equation. Z1 is your total reservoir height, which is static. V2 is a function of the flow rate since the flow is incompressible, m = rho * V2 * A. Z2 is zero relative to the height of the reservoir. Hf is the head loss due to friction which I believe is a function of pipe length and diameter (4fL/D?) (this is also where the bends loss goes), solve for P2. Note that the V2 term will increase with a decrease in area (pipe size) as will the Hf term, making the pressure P2 drop as these two increase.

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#5

Re: Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/02/2009 10:27 AM

If you have a constant level source the flow will be roughly proportional to the pipe cross area. Velocity at the nozzle will be almost the same if pipe dia is not changed too much (as already mentioned). If you connect a pipe to a PUMP then things get changed and here is the misunderstanding! Why? Let assume you have a pipe with D1 at the end the flow velocity will depend on the characteristic of the pump and if it is a free jet you will see a parabola. Now if you reduce the pipe( nozzle) diameter the velocity will increase because you move on the pump characteristic to a higher net resistance and the flow will go down but the velocity at the outlet will be higher and the parabola of the jet flatter.

This is NOT valid for a constant height supply.

I have the feeling here is the misinterpretation.

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/02/2009 12:06 PM

Has this cleared it up?

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#6

Re: Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/02/2009 10:30 AM

L should be about 5 times M

What's M?

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/02/2009 11:30 AM

Tmat smould mave been a M (sorry H)

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#9

Re: Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/02/2009 1:43 PM

Ordinarily, reducing pipe size will not increase pressure, with a smaller pipe having higher frictional losses, due to increased velocity. If there were no flow, (i.e a closed valve at the outboard end of the pipe) the the pressure at all points along the horizontal pipe length would be the same, and would equal head pressure. If there is any flow, then pressure along the length of the pipe will decrease. Thus, for long runs of pipes, plumbers use larger diameters than for short runs.

However, velocity will increase with smaller pipe size. Therefore, impact force on a Pelton will increase with increased velocity, even though pipe pressure has decreased (impact force increasing with the square of velocity). If the Pelton wheel speed is constrained by having to generate AC at a particular frequency, then there will be an optimum wheel speed and optimum jet velocity (usually the jet velocity should be twice the bucket speed). Ordinarily, this optimum speed is achieved with a nozzle, and reducing pipe size on the way to the nozzle would not give any advantage.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/02/2009 4:53 PM

Attention: specific impact will increase if and only if flow is constant (v=Q/S) in described case flow depends on the resistance of circuit since pressure drop is constant! It means if smaller pipe smaller flow but velocity about constant at outlet.

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#11

Re: Increasing the Pressure by Decreasing the Pipe Size

03/02/2009 8:49 PM

You cannot increase pressure by decreasing pipe size.Consider this:Connect a large pipe to the tank at the same level as a small pipe.Raise both pipe ends to the level of water in the tank.Both pipes will have the same water level. Height equals pressure.Both pipes have same pressure.Now, if you lower the ends of the pipes, the small pipe will shoot the water farther because the velocity has increased, and volume has decreased.The large pipe will fill a bucket faster than the small pipe because the small pipe has more resistance to flow and more losses.If you are trying to power anything that relies on weight of the fluid for power, the more fluid delivered in a given time period, the more power available.Therefor, a larger pipe will deliver more total energy in a given time period than a small one.Hope this helps.

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