I do not think it would be possible without replacing the cylinder head and and fuel intake system, Hydrogen must go into the engine as a gas air mixture and be ignited by a spark in a similar manner to a petrol air mixture.

An internal combustion engine running on a Hydrogen Oxygen mixture was considered for the Apollo mission Moon buggies but never used.

I think you are wrong!

Hydrogen air mixture is explosive without any spark!

Not quite true, a correctly balanced hydrogen air mixture (not too rich, not too lean) will only explode in the presence of a strong enough spark or hot enough surface.

What is the application (it's not a water electrolysis add-on device your trying to adapt for a diesel engine is it)?

No.

Ok, after searching the internet and discarding all the hydrogen additive and generator scams (of which there are a LOT), I found this

http://www.physorg.com/news70207345.html

So it appears that it IS possible to use quantities of hydrogen gas as an additive for both standard gasoline AND standard diesel internal combustion engines with only a few modifications. Note that you still need the diesel fuel, the hydrogen is used as an additive (not a replacement).

And no before you ask, an onboard water electrolysis generator won't work with a diesel engine either.

Dear Jack (of all trades)

Not just using stored hydrogen may an ICE run but with on site produced hydrogen by so called "reduction" process.Few years ago , a Romanian farmer exposed on TV his old ARO (ancient communist SUV with Diesel engine).The inventor let the cooling water in engine to boil and he let the water vapours pass thru a glow wired iron sponge fitted inside the hot exhaust gases collector.The reduction reaction took place and the water molecules were splatted in H2 and O2 and the gas was conducted thru a pipe to feed the aspiration manifold of the Diesel engine. After few minutes of run on diesel fuel to heat the engine and the catalytic iron became glow and the water in engine started to boil the fuel was set off and the engine was running on pure water.I remember he filed a patent for this invention.(Of course the reaction reduced the iron and in time the iron was turned into stain and had to be replaced .) Not only iron but also glow coal reduces water into H2 and O2 known as furnace gas .Success !

This seriously looks and sounds like a common free energy scam (and as you explain it, breaks numerous physical and common sense laws).

Sorry but unless I see overwhelming evidence to the contrary this one is just another impossibly-powering-an-internal-combustion-engine-on-water scam. Don't believe everything you see on television (or YouTube), especially if it looks impossibly too good to be true.

There is no free energy , not at all. The furnace gas is well known .If you spread some well atomized water on glow iron or coal in your barbecue (a genuine barbecue not a gas one) you will see the fire boosting so violent as you would spread fuel no water .There are also well known the reduction reactions of water vapours with iron or carbon

2Fe + 3H2O = Fe2O3 +3H2 ^ and C+H2O =CO +H2^

where both CO and H2 are combustible. Why do not try this very simple experience ? The reaction take place only by high temperatures .In the metallurgy industry these reactions are well known and furnace gas is very used as fuel for driving gas turbines that spin the blowers.As a diplomat engineer I never would dare to write an only word against the science or the physic's laws ,I would prefer to cut down my hand ... So, if you like to bear 15,6kg iron and 54,4 kg water to obtain 63,6 kg stain and 6 kg hydrogen (equivalent with 15,6kg of petrol ) , be my guest !There is no free energy because iron is produced with high energy technological costs, burning charred coal.

I have come across VERY similar scams and backyard inventions using this concept (scientifically proven phenomena scaled up with ridiculously high expectations and faulty assumptions for applying in the real world), and placing a standard engine glow plug in what amounts to a steel wool pot scrubber is not inspiring me with confidence at all. The system running on hydrogen alone from heated water (even with a simple catalyst) is even less believable and amounts to a perpetual over unity system where the iron, oxygen and water reaction are putting out far more energy than they contain.

Please note as a power engineer and scientist I am certainly interested. Are you able to provide any links to reputable third-party research and actual tests that were conducted in the field of automotive applications (there must be some if this is real). Please also note that unsubstantiated news reports, You tube videos and anything posted on a free energy or over unity website does not count as real evidence.

After all, extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence.

Dear Mr. Jack (of all trades),

please check in any Chemistry handbook , because I never sustained and will never ever sustain ball sheets from you tube or else.I just told what I saw on TV because I knew when I saw from the chemistry course that the reaction is possible .This evening I checked on Wikipedia and I found out several references : steam reforming,Reformer sponge iron cycle,hydrogen technologies,PROX, water gas shift reaction,"1784 Lavoisier Meusnier process, generating hydrogen by passing steam thru the red-hot barrel of an iron cannon"DOI:10.1080/00033798300200381"etc. even the name of "Hydrogen " comes from "Hydro=water" "gen=born" so Born of water.Is not a free energy , just think what energy is need to "reform" the iron from Fe3O4 (stain) back ! Therefore is used NG or other fuel to restore the consumed iron . There is no trick . But you have to exchange by "iron stations" the stain against iron to replace the used packs.And somewhere must be a "Reforming Plant ' that make iron back from stain .No trick, no overunit ! Is just an other energy vector , nothing more.

Good luck !

I have also seen people swear to me that their idea of using a small battery powered motor to power a larger generator to power an even larger motor, etc would allow them to generate the same energy as a standard GW size power station using only a small battery.

Thank you for the links (which I have looked at), but as I said before, there is a big difference between something that actually works in the real world and a scientifically proven phenomena scaled up with ridiculously high expectations and faulty assumptions for applying in the real world. The principle is sound but I see nowhere where it indicates that the process is efficient (let alone producing enough hydrogen to make the closed-loop system self sustaining, as you mention in post #7).

Another example of what I am talking about is people attempting to use peltier effect devices in the hot engine exhaust to recharge the battery and reduce fuel consumption. The principle is real and sound, but the amount of power you get out is so small as to be offset by the weight of the device and associated equipment, let alone the energy cost to manufacture it in the first place. Hence it isn't viable in the real world in this particular application.

even the name of "Hydrogen " comes from "Hydro=water" "gen=born" so Born of water.Is not a free energy

As I have said before, hydrogen is very difficult to extract from water. By its very nature it is stable and requires a lot of energy to "split" the Hydrogen Oxygen bond. All attempts to extract hydrogen from water using electricity have resulted in an overall loss of energy (due to numerous physical laws). This example still looks like a net loss of energy (and that is totally ignoring the fact that the overall energy requirements to try and 'reform' the iron are going to be orders of magnitude higher than the energy you could get out when the iron is used as a recyclable catalyst).

You have provided links to the principle of producing hydrogen in different ways (which is obviously not disputed), and your ideas and personal beliefs, but do you have any links I could look at to real research in the fields of using this principle to specifically provide efficient power for either a fixed power generation installation or to power a vehicle?

Without any real evidence relevant to the application mentioned above I am left with my conclusions back in post #8, which are based on real world principles and years of experience in the field of power (transmission, storage and generation) and free energy and over unity (practical and open-minded research and development).

All the correspondence has diverted from the original question as to how you run your engine on Hydrogen to how do you get "free" Hydrogen.

let us assume you have purchased a supply of compressed Hydrogen in cylinders, how do you get it into the engine how do you mix it with the correct amount of air and how do you arrange for it to ignite it at the appropriate time in the cycle.

As well as I already mentioned ,there is no problem to fit a needle valve (from a propane-butane installation) on the admission manifold of the engine .between air filter and the engine inlet.All other devices may rest unchanged.Just feed the H2 into the air stream and a mixture will be made. The ignition is Ok with spark plugs or by diesel fuel injection (at the minimum idle level).The air throttle must be acted synchro with the needle into the drilled jig too.

Although this arrangement might just about work for a stationary engine running on a fixed load I see many problems, how is ignition to be achieved do you fit a new head to accomodate spark plugs or are you still injecting diesel fuel and just deriving addional power from the Hydrogen?.

To run the engine purely on Hydrogen you would have to modify the head for spark plugs, reduce the expansion ratio (sometimes called compression ratio) with new pistons, modify the valve timing with a new camshaft and devise a much more subtle system of fuel air mixing with electronic monitoring.

BMW with their massive egineering resources have built such engines but it is no task for the amatuer

All you need is to adapt a valve in the intake maniful as close as possible to the intake chamber, to prevent that the HOH can burn outside and generate a flash back, this way the air being aspirated by the piston going into the intake stroke will bring the Hydrogen to the Cylinder combustion chamber. Hydrogen HOH can burn at 560° C. little bellow Diesel fuel 700° C so it will help to speed up the burning time of the diesel fuel and defenetly help to get a better combustion , power and fuel economy.

The changing variable volume of the cylinder is what makes fuel have a hard time to burn 100%, Hydrogen can make the speed of combustion to be so fast thath piston stroke mechanical speed wont be enough to make a BAD combustion.

Is to much to explain but YES HYDROGEN CAN BE PRODUCE WITH THE ONLY COST OF WATER AND BE USE IN ANY INTERNAL COMBUSTION CHAMBER.

EARTH CAN GIVE US MANY FREE THINGS WE JUST DON'T BELEIVE IN THEM.

OPEN YOUR EYES AND MIND PEOPLE PLEASE, WE DO NOT NEED TO CONTINUE USE HC FUELS FOR EVER AND MAKE MORE GLOBAL WARMING...LISTEN TO THE EARTH SPEAKING TO US.

WE CAN FLY FOR MANY HOURS NOW WITH OUT ENGINES WITH JUST A SIMPLE $3000 USD EQUIPMENT PARAPENTES. CAN YOU BELEIVE THAT?

Dear Mr. Jack( of all trades)

The jock with the electric "perpetum mobile" is very known .When I was 6 , that was my first invention: to feed the electric engines on the back shaft of my little car pedal driven ,with some electric generators driven by the front wheels. But my father (also engineer) gave me some books and I learned very early the physics laws and since then I do not believe anymore in marines.All my childhood I never had toys or child books , instead I had a heavy (3kg) TECHNICAL DICTIONARY (illustrated) which brought me all happiness I needed thru many years.Also from my father I had an old brown book with a sectioned Lanz Buldog tractor on the cover entitled THE DIESEL ENGINE.The book was written with big fonts and had very big and very clear explained drawings and no so good pictures.But always I was sleeping with this book under the pillow and I learned it as pater noster.So ,when I talking about energy and engines I really know what I say ...

I never said and I repeat, never ever said, that the water reduction with glow iron or coke is a over unit reaction.I just said the process is well known and applied in the industry since long ago and if industrial works , also will work on mobile application.By reforming industrial processes they use a combustible fuel as GN or coal just because they use the Hydrogen elsewhere not "in situ".And they rebuilds (reforms) the iron back from Fe3o4 (magnetite) in situ with the fuels energy supply because the reaction is endothermic .Just do the energetic balance of the reaction 3Fe + 4H2O =Fe3O4 +4H2 .There is no trick ! This is a endothermic reaction.Burning H2 is an exothermic reaction .The second one should not reform back the iron from oxide but just keep the iron glowing to allow the water reaction.There is no perpetum mobile .The exothermic reaction of burning H2 keeps the iron glow to allow the reaction since the reforming reaction is made elsewhere .On reforming plants they put together iron oxide with coke and a lot of heat to reduce the oxide into iron.What is trick in those processes ? Not only this reaction produces hydrogen .There are also a lot of other stuffs that are highly reactive , e.g.metallic Na or K react violent with water producing H2 and heat igniting it from self. After that is very energetic expensive to reform back the metals from NaOH or KOH , but is not impossible. Where is the trick ? Why is witchcraft ? Also Mg and Al my burn producing a lot of heat to drive an engine e.g. but after that must reform the metals from oxides, and must be made with a lot of energy elsewhere.In hot water Al powder replace the H2 from H2O and release H2 too,the water must be weak ionized...There are hundreds of such cold or hot reactions that crack the water molecule ...what is looking for is the most convenient procedure to do that...Greetings ,

During WW2 when petrol was rationed, people towed "gas producers" behind their vehicles.

These ran air through heated coke and produced CO which was used as fuel.

An improvement was to add some water as well so that H2 was also generated. As this reaction is endothermic, the water addition had to be kept low enough for the gas production to continue.

From memory, I think the optimum temp was a bit below 900C. People with steelworks knowledge could undoubtedly correct me on this.

The use of heated iron in the exhaust is the same. Even if the H2 released was enough to run the motor, (unlikely) the Fe is being burnt as fuel, just as the coke in the gas producer was actually the fuel driving the car, even though the coke never entered the engine

It is unlikely to ever make economic sense to burn Fe in your car, and, like the gas producers, it will be a very messy business.

I have found in Mexico a group of people producing Hydrogen HOH out of a small electronic box that uses only .100 ma of electricity to extract the H from the water, and is more than enough Gas to adapt to a Big 7.0 Lts Diesel engine.

They do not make with electrolicis, because electrolicis uses 30 to 40 Amps of electricity. Usig this tool at a 50% mix with Diesel they are getting 100% fuel economy.

Some one here is telling you lies that is not possible, not everything needs a lots of power to get it done, some time leverage is more important than power. Sorry I can not explain correct I'm not allow.

Francisco fpdelrincon@gmail.com

<sigh>

Sorry I can not explain correct I'm not allow.

That's ok I get the general gist of what you are trying to tell me. You should buy this device, either that or go to university and get an education, then get a few decades of electrical experience under your belt so that you can tell the difference between what is a scam and what is real.

Do you have a link to the website of this wonder device that (as you have described) breaks numerous laws? I am willing to have a look at the technology and be proven wrong.

You know sometimes the people with the education and real-world experience do know what they are talking about.

hi,

am also is interested in using hydrogen as a fuel .but i think very few knew about hydrogen as a fuel, how it works etc.hydrogen does not need spark.it can be allowed to come in contact with air only in combustion chamber.i think it will be better to mix h2 with oxygen or mixture of oxygen and nytrogen , than with air mixture.the problem is with storing of hydrogen.i heard that only active hydrogen react with oxygen promptly.if we can make hydrogen active just before combustion it will be a good solution.or else we have to produce hydrogen.one means is by using dc.then we can use water as fuel to automobiles .is't it amasing? it was made by a engineer in kerala,india some years age.so it is possible.but am thinking of producing electricity with hydrogen ie running an ic engine with hydrogen as a fuel and that ic engine be used as a prime mover to alternator.

This is how a hidrogen fueled truck looks like today

You are correct, and yes you can run your engine with a little modifications done on that, with hidrogen.

The only little problem you will have, is what you mentioned:

"How to produce and store the hydrogen is a "different opera".

Because it need 350.000 Volts to split up that destilled water, and less then 2.5 watts. I can imagine you touching the front of that truck, when you like to check it, if everything is fine with the engine. I can also imagine the overheated water hit by 200.000 Volts. Good idea! I know how to found solutions on these little troubles, but politicians would not think it´s a good idea to make such engine manufactured, or used in the traffic I think.(Don´t use the water from the kitchen, though it´s a little salty)

Because it need 350.000 Volts to split up that destilled water, and less then 2.5 watts

This is a serious discussion, please don't mention pseudoscience water electrolysis, it has been discussed, explained and disproven in depth enough on CR4 and by the scientific community over the years.

Ok, ok I was joking. Maximum of 250.000 Volt, but maybe enough 150.000?

I mean it. Promis not to involve your politics, don´t worry!

I see you know the history of the "0" series of that cute little Ford.. hi hi hi.

Well, what i have to say about it, that the maximum speed of that car was about 150Km per hour... I think.. and I like to drive fast when I have a car, so I like normal gas better, I love the smell of it! Mmmm..

Well, engines are heavy, and the technologie is far more too old.

To make hidrogen and oxigen of water, is only possible with high voltage. Not because there are no alternatives, but because in practice other ideas will never work.

You want to use your ideas, then you must have a small jet engine. Imobium axel combined with titanium, so is the blades covered in titan. Aluminium body, cooled with oil. Four lightweight powermagnet electrical motors which are steared by a computer in all direction, automatic 12 valwe. Hidraulic on each wheels.

You use the jet to run a generator, and makes 300-450 Volts/A.

Allthough it is not really relevent to running diesel engines on Hydrogen I would like to correct the ideas about the voltave required to produce Hydrogen, electrolysis cells run at under 2 volts

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&amp;ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enGB319GB319&amp;q=hydrogen+electrolysis+voltage

I do have a good idea for you: Buy one of these motors cheap, I mean a used one, they sure have some, but if they sell it or not, I have no idea, it worth if you ask them for a used engine like these:

Scanias bussmotorer
maj 2007

P07510SE / Per-Erik Nordström 1 (3)

Scanias 9-liters bussmotorer

230 hk 270 hk 310 hk
Motor DC9 16 230 DC9 17 270 DC9 18 310
Utsläppsnivå Euro 4
(partikelfilter tillval)
Euro 4
(partikelfilter tillval)
Euro 4
(partikelfilter tillval)
Princip Laddluftkyld Laddluftkyld Laddluftkyld
Slagvolym 8,9 liter 8,9 liter 8,9 liter
Tändföljd 1-2-4-5-3 1-2-4-5-3 1-2-4-5-3
Cylindrar 5 i rad 5 i rad 5 i rad
Cylinderhuvuden 5 5 5
Ventiler per cylinder 4 4 4
Cylinderdiameter
x slaglängd
127x140 mm 127x140 mm 127x140 mm
Kompressionsförhållande
17:1 17:1 17:1
Bränsleinsprutning Scania PDE Scania PDE Scania PDE
Utsläppskontroll Scania EGR Scania EGR Scania EGR
Max effekt
vid r/min
169 kW (230 hk)
1800
198 kW (270 hk)
1800
228 kW (310 hk)
1800
Max vridmoment
vid r/min
1050 Nm
1100-1500
1250 Nm
1100-1450
1550 Nm
1100-1350
Max motorbroms
vid r/min
180 kW
2400
180 kW
2400
180 kW
2400
Oljevolym 39 liter (K)
29 liter (N)
39 liter (K)
29 liter (N)
39 liter (K)
29 liter (N)

p07510se bus and coach engines may 2007

Scanias bussmotorer
maj 2007

P07510SE / Per-Erik Nordström 2 (3)

Scanias 12-liters bussmotorer

340 hk 380 hk 420 hk 470 hk
Motor DC12 10 340 DC12 13 380 DT12 12 420 DT12 03 470
Utsläppsnivå Euro 4 Euro 4 Euro 4 Euro 4
Princip Laddluftkyld Laddluftkyld Laddluftkyld,
turbocompound
Laddluftkyld,
turbocompound
Slagvolym 11,7 liter 11,7 liter 11,7 liter 11,7 liter
Tändföljd 1-5-3-6-2-4 1-5-3-6-2-4 1-5-3-6-2-4 1-5-3-6-2-4
Cylindrar 6 i rad 6 i rad 6 i rad 6 i rad
Cylinderhuvuden 6 6 6 6
Ventiler per cylinder 4 4 4 4
Cylinderdiameter
x slaglängd
127x154 mm 127x154 mm 127x154 mm 127x154 mm
Kompressionsförhållande
17:1 17:1 17:1 17:1
Bränsleinsprutning Scania HPI Scania HPI Scania HPI Scania HPI
Utsläppskontroll Scania EGR Scania EGR Scania EGR Scania EGR
Max effekt
vid r/min
250 kW (340 hk)
1800
280 kW (380 hk)
1800
309 kW (420 hk)
1900
345 kW (470 hk)
1900
Max vridmoment
vid r/min
1700 Nm
1100-1350
1900 Nm
1100-1350
2100 Nm
1100-1350
2200 Nm
1100-1450
Max motorbroms
vid r/min
247 kW
2400
247 kW
2400
247 kW
2400
247 kW
2400
Oljevolym 27 liter 27 liter 27 liter 27 liter

p07510se bus and coach engines may 2007

Scanias bussmotorer
maj 2007

P07510SE / Per-Erik Nordström 3 (3)

Stadsbussmotorer för alternativa bränslen

270 hk etanol 260 hk biogas / naturgas 300 hk biogas / naturgas
Motor DC9 E02 270 OC9 G02 260 OC9 G03 300
Utsläppsnivå Euro 5 och EEV Euro 5 och EEV Euro 5 och EEV
Princip Laddluftkyld Laddluftkyld Laddluftkyld
Slagvolym 8,9 liter 9,0 liter 9,0 liter
Tändföljd 1-2-4-5-3 1-5-3-6-2-4 1-5-3-6-2-4
Cylindrar 5 i rad 6 i rad 6 i rad
Cylinderhuvuden 5 6 6
Ventiler per cylinder 4 2 2
Cylinderdiameter
x slaglängd
127x140 mm 115x144 mm 115x144 mm
Kompressionsförhållande
28:1 12,6:1 12,6:1
Bränsleinsprutning Scania PDE Gasblandare Gasblandare
Utsläppskontroll Scania EGR Oxicat Oxicat
Max effekt
vid r/min
199 kW (270 hk)
1900
191 kW (260 hk)
2000
221 kW (300 hk)
2000
Max vridmoment
vid r/min
1200 Nm
1100-1400
1100 Nm
1000-1400
1250 Nm
1000-1400
Max motorbroms
vid r/min
170 kW
2400
– –
Oljevolym 39 liter (K)
29 liter (N)
29 liter 29 liter

p07510se bus and coach engines may 2007

Scania
Corporate Relations Telephone +46-8 5538 1000
S-151 87 Södertälje Telefax +46-8 5538 5559
Sweden www.scania.com

Driven and fueled by only hidrogen
(I don´t like thier ideas anyway´s, they ask too much for a bussticket, but the damn gas cost cheap)

ps.: Naturgas? What kind of a gas is that? Grr..

Here is a very good article on the design of I.C engines to run on Hydrogen

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Salt water in high frequency field, can crack water to H2 and O2. Simply and beautiful electrolysis. I am fascinated with this discovery. I don't know detail, but generator is around Tesla transformer frequency, and around 1 KW power for test tube flame. Electricity can be convert directly to fire. Like Tesla's proposal for make aluminum.

Please, please, no more water electrolysis. This thread is turning from real science and development into a pseudoscience thread.

We get the joke ok. Real scientifically proven research and developments only please, or people are just going to switch off and go to another thread, or get the two confused. There are PLENTY of other threads on CR4 where you can talk about pseudoscience if you really want to, and plenty of other forum groups dealing with the miracle 'wonders' of water electrolysis.

BMW claim a thermal efficiency of 42% for their Hydrogen powered engines, no match for the huge diesels that power ships which can reach 55% but still an improvment the normal petrol or diesel engines that power cars and trucks.

For those that are still struggling separating real science from pseudoscience.

The HHO myth and scams revisited (again).

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4310717.html

And the real peer reviewed science showing that a 5% hydrogen injection can significantly improve the performance of a carefully redesigned internal combustion engine.

http://www.sae.org/servlets/index

Much more information on the subject can be found here (including a list of some real scientific papers covering improvements adding hydrogen to gasoline).

http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu09.asp

IE browsers tend to have problems with .pdf so here is a screen shot