Concrete Slab Floor for Second Floor Greenhouse

If you have drawings prepared by an architect, there should be enough information for a contractor to quote.

The second floor slab sounds very unusual. I don't know how 2x6 SPF @ 16" o/c was deemed adequate to span 14'-3" or 16'-1" even without the weight of the six inch slab. Was there another wall in between?

If the slab has been reinforced to span as a two way slab, then it will not be relying on the wood joists after the concrete has cured. Make sure that it was designed to do that.

1. Yes, you do need temporary shoring to hold the weight of the concrete until it can carry its own weight. You could support the underside of joists if the existing deck is deemed adequate to span between joists with six inches of wet concrete resting on it.

I hope that the architect investigated the foundation under the bearing walls and determined that they were capable of accepting such a large amount of additional load.

2. Yes, you should use air-entrained concrete if freezing temperatures are expected.

3. The EPDM is absolutely necessary on top of the deck to prevent the downward migration of water. I am no expert in building envelopes, so you should probably talk to your architect about your concerns about the vapor barrier and the potential for wood rot. I believe that the joist spaces need to be ventilated. If they are packed with insulation, they are not ventilated, so I would have reservations about enclosing them with EPDM on top and vapor barrier on the bottom.

The need for ventilation depends upon the type foam used.

Thank-you for your comments, Bruce.

The existing one storey addition at the back has a shallow-angle gabled roof which will be removed to install a slab upon which the greenhouse will be situated to form the second storey.

The existing ceiling joists are 2x 6's at 16" centres.

New SPF joints will now be installed in between so we will have 14'-3" long joists at 8" OC for a perpendicalar distance of 16'-1". Hence this reinforcement was designed to work with existing joists to carry should carry the 6" one-way slab. I would be more than happy to have a 2-way slab, but I believe the slab thickness requirements would increase. Is this so? A two-way slab may be better since I could remove the ceiling joists but the extra thickness would be a drawback. I need about 6" underneath the slab since I want R30. No rafters would be a more straight-forward approach. Any thoughts here?

I do wish the architect did a foundation calculation. Here's what the city stamped on the building permit drawing:

"Homeowner and or contractor shall verify that the existing foundation is adequate to support the loads imposed by the new construction."

My question to the architect:

"-What needs to be done here? I hope I don't have to dig down to measure footing widths. Or is a simple estimated footing/loading calculation sufficient?

Architect's answer:

"Wait and see what (if anything) is asked for by the inspector. Most often we find that they do not ask for verification but if they do then yes a hole will need to be dug outside to measure the projection of the footing and also the soilbearing capacity of the soil.

(I am losing my confidence in this design nice drawings but missing key details-but he did get a permit.)

Do you think the joists need to be ventilated? They will be sealed on top with EPDM. 5" of 2 LB foam will be sprayed in between the cavities to get about R25. I believe leaving out the vapor barrier on the bottom will let any moisture to migrate via diffusion through the 2" side and into the existing ceiling plaster bellow. Or should I put cross-stapping on the top and bottom of the joists to ventilate the top and bottom. However the 1/2" plywood may buckle on the top.

Here's some drawing views:

Any comments on this design approach would be appreciated.

Thank-you

Hello RCE:

Yes the drawings are are stamped by an architect and structural engineer but not included for confidentiality reasons. Also a building permit has been issued. I have paid thousands for the design and more than double the original estimate. However, as mechanical engineer and the homeowner, I decided to manage this project, rather than handing it over to the architect to supervise. (The architect brought in his structural engineer colleague to handle structural issues who was paid by the fees set by the architect.) My decision to use an architect was to handle primarily safety, then building skin issues and finally aesthetic issues as you mention.

I will be doing the demolition of the existing one-storey addition roof and preparation for the concrete contractor. However the problems are arising at the start of this job. I want to provide the concrete contractor a written scope of supply, and have shown him the drawings. I now realize that many details are missing: interconnections notes, foundation analysis, shoring details and now I am doubting the design rationale. I suppose I should call the structural engineer and ask to review the design.

Thank-you,

TedT

I think your project is sufficiently complicated that it needs the input of an engineer conversant with this type of construction.

Checking the foundation is not simply a matter of appeasing the authorities. You don't want the footings to settle after construction is completed, so it is for your own protection that a footing investigation be made.

I don't know where you are or what building code you are using, but No. 1&2 2x6@16 SPF can span only 9'-4" with a residential load of 1.9 kPa (40 psf). Even doubling them will not be adequate to carry six inches of concrete slab. If the joists are to remain, they must be supported until the concrete is capable of carrying itself.

A simply supported solid one way slab, by CSA A23.3 must be a minimum of L/20, so for a 14' span you should have 0.7' or 8.4" thickness by code. This makes the floor even heavier. You could perhaps reduce the thickness slightly by taking advantage of two way action, but at first glance, the system seems wrong to me.

My advice is to engage a structural engineer to review the drawings you have and to prepare structural drawings for the work.

The L/20 is a criteria that must be met if you do not complete deflection calculations. most of the time that estimate is very conservative.

It might be a bit conservative, but it depends on how much deflection you are prepared to allow when you do "complete deflection calculations". I do not think you would want to use a 6" slab on this span. I know I would not.

Another question we have not considered to date is the live load on the floor. It could be considerably more than a normal residential load.

Ventilation shouldn't be necessary when using 2.0 lb foam.

Hello Toomuchfun:

Thank-you for your detailed reply.

The construction is in the province of Ontario and will have to conform to the Ontario Building code.

Yes a foundation analysis needs to be done.

The worst case of additional loading would be about 230 FT3 of soil over 230 FT2, plus the greenhouse weight, (double pane glass plus aluminum structural) plus people.

Floor drain would tie into city sewer. This is not a commercial operation and will be organic.

Wind loads will be investigated by structural engineer.

The lower level of the greenhouse is an existing 50 year old single storey addition to a 60 year old 1 1/2 storey house. The sun is profuse on the S-W roof orientation of this addition. My partner loves to garden, and the winters are long and cold here in Toronto. Currently there is a main staircase to get to the upstairs, and the greenhouse will be adjacent to an existing bedroom that faces west. The exterior galvanized metal balcony will eventually have a staircase going to ground level. (This was to be a spiral stairway, but building codes would not permit it so it was deleted for the time being.

I believe this renovation will increase the value of the home, and should any future owner not want a greenhouse, they can remove it and have a beautiful exterior large second floor patio. The renovation is budgeted at a $150/FT2 and is expected to be energy neutral with solar gains used to preheat DHW.

Neighbours were consulted and had a chance to voice any concerns. Shading was an issue with the neighbour to the north, however it was discounted as this will only partially shade the adjoining driveway for a few hours in winter.

Thanks again for your comments!

TedT

looked at your design of your 2nd floor green room. my reply is STOP!!!!

when construction of this type is done improperly and fails it usually hurts someone, this

time it could be you.

Now lets help you out. you need a structual engineer for this project who has experience

in this specific type of project. I am speaking from 30 years of high intensity structual

concrete construction. Most of the time as a bonding company contractor. I got filty rich

going behind contractors who built structures from flawed drawings like the one I see in

your atatchment. Here are the points: your second floor slab shouldn't sit on a wood

plate the concrete will deterioate that wood more than likely.... your original foundation

may not be rated to hold that extra load that you are adding. If you are relying on your

contractor to correct structual miss-givings of your drawing ....THINK...Increase in time

or short cuts. Your home-owener insurance underwritter will have both engineers and

HIGH price lawyers. I hope this will help you. "Good planning is what you need

before the good luck is hoped for"....... from....A Construction Cowboy.....

Dear Ted, I've not read all the posts of this thread, but sense you feel there is a flaw.

Reputable architects hire engineers to approve their designs as structurally sound.

Go with your gut on this one is my suggestion, from a quick scan of the posts.

Even the great Architect Frank Lyold Wright had a significant failure at Falling Waters that was attributed to the loyalty he had for one particular engineer who miscalculated arm movements over a cantilever span.

Hello TedT,

Are you wanting to build this because you do not have room otherwise?

I am not able to read your drawings as they are too small. But have you thought about an aluminum structure for the 'top' floor? It would be lighter. It would need wood or preferably aluminum structural support directly under the floor, and preferably bolted to the floor.

I simply do not understand why you are thinking about building this type of glass-house. It is extremely expensive and you must have paid a lot for the drawing etc. But as I understand it, the drawing seem incomplete, with not enough detail.

I do not know the weight of an aluminum floor but it will be substantially lighter than concrete. Why not wood for the second floor? You need to be growing gold bars to make this worth while!

Please let me know what you think of

my aluminum idea, and I will start searching for details.

You have some very good advice from Bruce and the other poster, sorry I have forgotten your name.

If you really want concrete, the foundations with need to be similar to a house, as the weight and strength is needed to hold the total structure up. So you need good foundations, and then build it like you would a house, but instead of a 'roof', it will be a floor. Then you can build a glass-house on top?

Please let us/me have feedback on this.

bb

baby bear,

I definitely agree with your concept of a lighter second floor. I did not say it before because I did not want to second guess the engineer that Ted may retain.

I believe the 2x6 joists should be removed as they add nothing useful to the structural system and pose the threat of wood rot over time.

One idea which I had considered was precast, prestressed concrete hollow core slabs. The advantage would be that they are lighter than solid concrete and require no shoring. The disadvantage would be that they are not suitable for a radiant heating system.

Another possibility is steel framing with concrete on light gauge steel deck. The concrete would have to be thick enough to hold the radiant heating. I don't know, maybe four inches would be enough.

There may be a lot more possibilities, but I think that Ted has to retain an engineer to take professional responsibility for the design.

Helo ba/ael,

Hope you are fine my friend?........ Thanks for the reply post.....

I just do not 'get' the idea of constructing a glass-house like this. As I said just design a building, which must include the full weight and appropriate footings. Then think about putting a glass-house 'on the roof'?

It seems an awful lot of trouble to go through just for a 'glass-house'? No insult intended here but, I wonder if the OP is saying 'glass-house', when what they mean is a second floor (in the UK it would be first floor.............. the next one up from the ground) which has glass walls/ceiling? The whole structure and detail indicate this is a dwelling, NOT a glass-house to me anyway.

bb

I agree that the 2x6's do nothing after the concrete cures. But you said you wanted to have insulation so something must be there. As a solution for the water/ water vapor problem, have any of you used Xypex before? I have heard people raving about it. I think it might be a good solution.

Hello ba/ael:

I agree with your comment about the 2x 6's being useless.

The original thought to maintain a floor with a thermal resistance of R30 and to keep the existing ceiling in place led the design to go to a one-way slab with additional 2 x 6"s for support, and spray foam. However, the architect has repeatedly ignored my requests as to how to shore the slab through the existing ceiling saying this is the responsibility of the concrete contractor. I have questioned about whether the existing and reinforced 2 x 6's are shoring enough. Or do temporary supports need to be placed to take the dead loads so that the joists and slab act as a composite beam?

I will run these questions past the structural engineer. Maybe getting rid of the 2 x 6's and going with a 2-way slab is the way to go. Do you think the concrete floor would have to be thicker with a 2-way slab?

Thank-you!

Hello TedT,

With a two way slab, at a guess, I would think you might be okay with a 7" slab, but I still don't like it.

If you need a concrete slab, I would suggest 8" deep steel beams spanning 14'-3" spaced at 4' centers with 1.5" x 22 gauge steel deck and 4" concrete (actually it is 4" in the flutes of the deck and only 2.5" at the high points). If that is not enough for your radiant heating, add whatever concrete you need.

The advantage of this system is (a) reduction in weight, although the foundation still should be checked and possibly underpinned and (b) elimination of shoring through the lower floor and crawl space.

I have constructed a number of condominiums and multi story buildings, and I disagree with you on the thickness of said concrete.

Where the concrete is placed on top of the existing cement block wall there needs to be a grade beam, that is typically 16" deep, with the appropriate steel imbedded. This is a standard procedure. I observed from the supplied drawings that there is reinforcing steel in the form of rebar within the, to be placed concrete. I would expect said steel to be #5 bars of grade 60 steel. I would also have the engineer design the concrete mixture as all mud is not the same nor does it have the same performance characteristics. Ex. concrete specified for airport runways and ramps is different from concrete designed for an average city sidewalk, tho it looks the same when cured.

And TEDT: You are taking on a lot of responsibility when you decide to be your own contractor. By doing so you are agreeing that you believe that the drawings and computations are correct and you are the owner of all parts of this puzzle. If you find problems with the completed work, just who are you going to point the finger at. You absolutely need to retain professionals to do this for you. If you disagree, then I suggest that you seek the advice of an attorney.

TooMuchFun

Thank-you for structural specification.

However< I do not understand:

"1.5" x 22 gauge steel deck and 4" concrete (actually it is 4" in the flutes of the deck and only 2.5" at the high points"

Please explain what this steel deck looks like further.

Thanks,

TedT

One idea which I had considered was precast, prestressed concrete hollow core slabs

This is what I was thinking too and you are asserting that warm floor is inappropriate? Warm floor is being used on precast concrete quite often:

http://www.mira.ee/static/files/17.devimat_GB.pdf - sorry, link no longer available

Hello bwire,

That is a system I was not aware of. I was under the impression that TedT wanted to use pipes embedded in the floor slab. Your suggestion is another idea he could consider.

Back at ya ba/ael,

With the limited square footage the OP may experience greater efficiency and less weight of mastic covering the heating mat.

A light steel joist 9" depth @ 48" O/C will support the span with cap of 3" precast concrete having 6" x 6" welded mesh reinforcement.

2.0 foam is impermeable and being applied directly to steel or concrete there is no air gap and subsequently no heat transfer occurs, a vapor barrier is unnecessary.

This looks like electric heating which is DEFINITELY not desired.

TedT

As a building contractor I understand the need for the 2x6 joists. Likely they were acceptable in the initial installation because they were supported by strong backs and framing attachments to the rafters above. Said owner is doing his own demolition, likely does not comprehend the above framing components. By doubling the the number of 2x6's he his attempting to adjust for the removal of the aforementioned framing members. The truth is, If the second story concrete is strong enough to carry its own weight, he really does not need to add more joists. He can install metal straps designed for this purpose on the existing joists at the center of said joists and let the straps extent upward into the above concrete before placement. When the concrete hardens, it will be supporting the joisting and ceiling below.

Hello babybear:

The existing house is a "1 1/2 storey". The intent is to have a walk-out from the second floor bedroom into the new greenhouse -to be built on the existing one storey addition.

If you copy the reply into the clipboard and paste into Word then you can zoom-in.

Your thought about an aluminum structure is interesting, however about 3-inches minimum of concrete is necessary for the hydronic tubing and possibly sound dampening issues. A concrete floor is water and wear resistant. It also provides a great heat sink. (I not only want to heat the floor in the winter, (although at times the user may choose to let the floor go to freezing, R30 underneath), but to pick up the solar gain in the hydronics to preheat domestic hot water.) I figure, I can get about 12,000 BTU/hr.

I don't have gold bars, that's why I want to do things like demolition and installation of the hydronic tubing myself! I may be growing my food in there in this cold Canadian climate if things get tight.

I really do like your aluminum idea, the greenhouse framing is aluminum, but I think concrete is a compromise.

Take care,

TedT

Hello TedT,

I am please to get your post, thank you. And also pleased you have given a more complete detailed outline of what you want to do and also where you live! It has to be part of the thinking process of course.

You could still go with the aluminum floor with slightly larger RSJ's you can either put a two" (50 mm) skim, or, use concrete slabs or thick ceramic floor tiles for the 'heat sink'. The space under the structure will give ample room for the heater tubes and insulation..................

And, one last thought, to make certain you do have enough foundation, (unless you built it) half an hour to dig a hole on the outside of the building you have now will confirm or not whether the footings are good. I thought it was to be part of a dwelling because of the detail of the lead flashing. Not something you usually find on a 'glass-house?

Just one more point, if your engineer is not listening to you on certain points, find someone else! In the UK the concrete company comes, dumps the concrete and thats that! They are not responsible or any structural work whatsoever! If they were you may just as well get them to do the whole job? I think your engineer wants to to discuss this more with you and not lay down the law as HE sees it.

Take care, and good luck.

bb

Hmmm, I wonder if it would be reasonable to put some of the 'ultra light' concrete, ... lots of air, and a significant amount of pearlite replacing a significant amount of agregate, possibly some plasticising agents and monofiliment nylon to help with micro fractures, would help reduce the weight without effecting its non-significant load bearing use.

If it is to support a hydroponic garden where you could be supporting the rough equivalent of 2' of water, then drop my idea. The strength of the 'ultra light' concrete is significantly lower than what most of us consider 'standard' mixes. But it can weigh a lot less.

Different tools for different jobs.

The slab will be a full 12 " thick on the two load bearing walls in the 14'-3" dimension and will reduce down to 6" over the area not under the solid masonry. The joists/slab is the ceiling for the first floor room below.

The dimensions for concrete thickness seem excessive unless you will be driving buses on it. What is the concrete mix and what reinforcements are specified?

Strongly urge you follow other posters advice to engage a structural engineer to review the drawings you have and to prepare structural drawings for the work.

bwire,

I think the slab was to be 6" thick except at the bearing wall where it had to be 12" thick in order to bear on the wall. You certainly will not be driving buses on this slab. Or if you do, you will not be doing it for long.

It sound like a beautifull idea for a second flloor green house. I have built a couple houses and you are stuck with any problems once completted no matter who aproved it. I also owned a machine shop and worked in one that had a concrete second floor floor supporting machines weighing thousands of pounds and vibrating as they cut.

This is do-able but if the plan is to support it on wood and it is going to be wet above in the green house then it sounds like a bad idea. It is compounded if the heating in the floor is liquid and has a possibility of theaking. I would want solid support for this structure that can't rot easily. Perhap the engineers imput will support this. Quote it out to a company with an engineer in house who understands this construction. You will then tie the engineering to the construction and builder of this slab and green house so there are no misunderstandings or errors.

This is not the type of job that I would want to break up amoung contractors. The drainage of this green house is another concern it should be top notch materials and workmanship.

There may be another possibility. We built a deck over living space. The supports for the deck were preasure treated with thick rubber as the roof. The rubber was pitched for drainage to the cutters system. The 4 x 4 preasure treated supports came throught the rubber. The rubber flexted upward around these posts making about a two inch upward flare and then copper flashing covered the edges of the rubber and they were set into small groves cut in the outside of the 4 x 4 and sealed with tar. The copper was even brased. The decking sat on and was bolted to these supports so if the rubber needed to be replaced in 40 years the decking could be dis assembled. This would work with the wood construction and the decking would support rased beds.

Good luck it looks beautiful.

Hello ba/ael:

I spoke with the architect this evening. He clarified some things that were not evident on the drawing:

1) The existing and additional 2 x 6's act as concrete form supports under which two rows of shoring will be placed perpendicular to the joists while the concrete cures. The 24 rows of joists at 8" OC are to maintain rigidity of the forms over the shoring.

2) The shoring is to bear under the existing "nice" plaster ceiling using some polystyrene foam pads to bear between the ceiling and the shore plates.

3) Since R30 insulation is required, 5 1/2" thick of 2 LBS spray foam insulation is to be placed in the joist cavities.

4) Then the 2x 6's are left in place after the shores are removed. About 80% of the volume under the concrete is foam insulation the remainder is wood.

5) The concrete is to support itself and external loading once cured and in no way do the joists act as a concrete support after the shoring is removed. The joists also act as a way to keep the plywood and EPDM sheet in place permanently.

A) The 2 x 6's are perceived as an elegant solution by the architect to maintain the existing first floor ceiling, (hopefully it doesn't crack too bad) and to provide support for the formwork, and EPDM.

*What do you think?

B) Yes the slab is to be 6" thick for the most part, except at the wall where it is 12".

**You mention deflection problems, how serious would it be? I would worry about loosing the seal on my double glaze greenhous glass if the deflection is to severe.

***Nevertheless, would a 6" slab (25 Mpa, air-entrained) be strong enough to take the loading?

C) A soil test and foundation investigation will be done this week. Hopefully, this will determine the load capability of the existing foundation.

Regards,

TedT

1) In order to install the new 2x6 joists and maintain the "nice" plaster ceiling, you would have to remove the deck and install everything from above. I was not aware of that and thought you intended to remove the ceiling. I believe it should work.

2) Yes, if the work is done carefully and the concrete is not just dumped down, the plaster may be preserved. The plaster has to be strong enough to carry 75 psf concrete and, say 25 psf construction live load on the bearing points of the shoring. Don't use too soft a foam or the concrete will settle during the pour.

3) and 4) Insulation sounds pretty good. I am a bit concerned about lack of ventilation for the joists, but I don't know whether this will create a problem or not.

5) That is as it should be.

A) I was not aware that the ceiling was considered such a valuable element to maintain. It might crack a bit but I guess it can be patched up.

B) I first thought the slab was spanning 14'-3", but now I am wondering if that dimension is to the outside face of walls in which case the clear span would be less, say about 13'-0". Deflection is a little difficult to predict with reinforced concrete. The majority of the deflection comes over time and is called creep deflection.

I would anticipate immediate deflection of about 0.1" and long term deflections in the 0.3 to 0.4" range.

The six inch slab, reinforced with 15M@6" o/c as shown on your drawing would certainly be strong enough to carry the slab and a considerable live load as well.

C) I am pleased to hear that you are doing a soil test to confirm the existing foundation. Best of luck with that.

If you are simply looking for a matrix in which to install hydronic heating elements and to act as a heat sink, why don't you consider one of the several cementitious products designed for that use? Gypcrete is one product that uses Gypsum to lighten the unit weight. There are others as well, and they have unit weights or densities that vary from 1/2 to 2/3 that of Portland Cement concrete.

Also, why anyone would suggest SPF lumber as suitable for structural floor support is beyond me. It should be structural grade SYP (Southern Yellow Pine) or an engineered wood joist or truss.

If you do use concrete, you certainly don't need to shore for 28 days. Typically, shoring is removed after 7 days and some shores are left or "re-shored" at that time for perhaps another 7 days. If you specify a 'high-early strength' mix, you will get enough tensile strength in the first few days of curing to permit an earlier shoring removal.

I have used expanded polystyrene sheet before to deaden sound and keep heat in. Leastways, it can be laid direct onto aluminum where you walk, and any tiles or other flooring could be laid on that. A bit like you would do to build a 'floating' wooden floor.

You could also lay a thin skim as I mentioned before about 2" (50 mm) over the styrene. It would deaden sound and act as a heat sink. bb

Dear TedT, It would appear to me after reading this set there is something wrong with both the architect, and the engineer that you got drawings from.

Apparently you sense this.

Of the people involved I would be interested in whether or not the guy pumping the concrete has done anything like this before.

I think you are plowing good money after bad. In other words the concrete slab is a questionable concept in my mind. Here is another thought. Simple wood construction, may be increase the floor joice to 10" for insulation purposes.

Heat with plastic radient tubing It has metal brackets to spread the heat. Tubing is set inbetween plywood strips which will add thickness to the floor. I think the floor can be surfaced with a thin cement like slurry.

I saw this heating application on one of the TV shows ... maybe "This old House"

Concrete sounds very costly, complicated by the unknown foundation and other load factors.

If you go this route I bet you could almost do it your self....

Hi TedT, Did you complete your project? What kind of progress has been made? I live near Ottawa Ontario and I'm considering a similar idea for a greenhouse. I love the idea of roofing a home with a greenhouse, and to use the upwards rising heat from the home to warm the growing plants. I'd enjoy exchanging emails to hear how things are/have gone/going? Please respond to rodger@inbox.com Thanks:) Rodger

Gave the thread another read, and many of the posts are very good addressing in most every detail little problems, and large that I initially felt.

Everything from the foundation to the type of wood, drainage, stairways and radiant heating has been discussed, all with great insight.

I simply worked on renovations and additions for ten years. Though I and my workmates did what we were told to make money, more than once among ourselves it was obvious the client would have received a more perfect and less expensive structure if the house to be renovated, had been simply torn down and another built.

The drawing itself is attractive, and if you are married to that, well, I think you will have problems.

I'm nearly of a mind to suggest that to get what you want, you build onto your existing structure, instead of on top of your existing structure. If height above ground is required to put the Greenhouse into the sun possibly steel beams or posts, or brick clad pilings will help achieve that.

Possibly even you could cut holes in the walls and shove steel beams through and cantilever the green house off the house.

I have worked on homes when the homeowners continued to live in the home even when we tore the roof off, and much labor is essentially wasted maintaining some livability within the structure during demo, and construction, significantly raising costs.

In one case the client initially planned to live in the four story home while we renovated one floor completely and half of another. They changed their mind about that and stayed at another home they had at the beach, within days of our start.

In another case the client simply bought another home, we did a complete renovation, then the client sold the home they lived in while we were working, and moved back in.

While it sounds as if you have invested considerable money into plans for most of the participants every turn seems to set off alarm bells.

One of my sayings is: "It's my plan, and I might change it!"

Another reality is they do not call a home, a roof over your head for no reason, and anytime you change or alter and open that roof you've got problems.

I'll try here quick to wrap up, but access to this area has been touched on, and a dumbwaiter was suggested. Look on down the road and consider how as you and your mate age how might this make some of the plan difficult to work with.