<...want to patent...dont have a budget for the making of this product....>

Patent applications do not require a prototype to have been built.

<...Do I always need a start up budget for developing my idea into a real product....>

No, if someone else is going to provide it.

nor does it require to perform

If you are combining 3 things in a new and novel way to perform a 'non obvious' function, then you may be able to patent it.
You can't actually patent an 'idea' as such, you need to explain your device and make 'claims' showing stating what it does (which is new novel etc).
Bear in mind patent lawyers will be only too happy to take your money with no gaurantee of any protection.
If your device simply is a new application of 3 existing products, there may be little to stop others finding a similar way of doing the task which doesn't quite do the same as your product...or they simply produce an ad hoc device.
Del

Additionally, here in the USA, the patent office clearly states that devices cannot be patented if it can be made with existing devices that a "clever mechanic" may produce.

Hay I just invented the spork!
Is that ok?...It's a spoon one end and a fork on the other
Probably been done already
Del

Sporks were invented before I was born, and that was over 60 years ago! I don't know who invented them, but I would guess they merely did it as a joke to torment anyone who tried to use the fork part to stab meat. See Spork at Wikipedia.

Ah! That shows the power of WAQAP^{TM .}
I'll just stick a knife on t'other end...dunno what to call it tho'.
You wanna buy shares?
Del

Preferred stock???

With a knife on the other end, call it a law suit waiting to happen.

You don't need a prototype to file for a patent. Your patent application needs to clearly describe your invention along with drawings if necessary. I'm assuming that you don't have the funds for a patent attorney either. You can write the application yourself, but it takes time. You may think about filing a provisional patent first, that is easier and it will protect your idea. Check out uspto.gov, edisonnation.com, If you file a provisional, you have 1 year to follow up with a regular patent. The resources are out there to write the application yourself, just take your time.

I agree with Del in post two and would like to add that to get a better feeling on how to proceed you might do some searching and read a trusted book on patenting and marketing new ideas. This would help you understand if you are ready to put your money where your mouth is.

Patent laws are complex enough that I believe it is unlikely you would get a commercially valuable patent without legal representation. If you proceed with it, use a Patent Agent not a Patent Attorney.

In general, a working copy is not needed to pursue a patent but I would not personally go for a patent unless I knew the idea worked. In the patent application you do have to "reduce to practice" the idea which generally means you must show how to do it, make it, etc. The explanation has to be believable (no perpetual motion).

Can you explain why you recommend a patent agent as opposed to a patent attorney (other than possibly higher fees)? I would have suggested the opposite as should you require legal advice the attorney can, legitimately, give it.

Hello Guest,

Our company can help you out please contact us via website

www.alnoproductsercvices.com.au

or info@alnoproductservices.com.au

Anthony

If you want to be taken in the slightest bit seriously by anyone here, you must at least be a full and open member with location details etc.

Otherwise you just look like a crook at this moment in time.....

Honesty is the best policy.....(from us to you and from you to us!) I was just being honest!!

"Otherwise you just look like a crook at this moment in time....."

this might be a problem for him.......I frankly do not understand, why somebody with such serious question cannot reveal himself here?

Maybe in this KIND of post... but generally "Guests" opinions and statements are just as serious as those who choose to become members and there is no reason to not take them seriously. The administrators of these forums have deemed fit to allow Guests and obviously think there are more good than bad posts from them; otherwise they wouldn't be allowed. I happen to agree with them.

Generally yes, but when you (and all guests are the same) ask for basically money, in amenity that is not good.

Hell, you could be a solicitor from Nigeria.

"Hell, you could be a solicitor from Nigeria." GA for that one!!!

Someone from South Africa told me once - 'Nothing that comes out of Africa is trustworthy'.

Totally wrong approach guest.

I have posted anonymously to show you how stupid it can get as there is no way to tell one quest from another!!! So it looks like they are arguing with themselves.

Anyone who has a serious honest approach will become a member, anyone who as a guest tries to "drum up business" is seen basically as a crook with something to hide.

If you do not understand that important point, or you cannot understand it, then you are even MORE suspect!!!!!

Also, advertising here is not allowed, you need to be "afiliated" with CR4 and advertise in the correct manner.....

....but if you want to continue to blow hard, carry on. I for one will just ignore it, as will many others.....your final choice, to blow or not to blow!!!

I got from you first!!!

You are right guest, I am a crook and a guest (troll), you caught me out completely, I am going elsewhere where it will be easier to pull suckers and take their money.....

How did one of you guess so quickly that we are based in Nigeria, as we have now learnt good "American", was it worth the effort, I ask myself?

Have a nice day Sahib.

ANDY GERMANY,

*It is obvious that many names of members are just nick names, excepting few.

*Suppose a member posts without getting logged in, such postings are also getting marked as GUEST, and nothing could be done there after , just to await for comments to one's posts.

*Let us give importance for the technical issue than the person.

*Vehement comments probably may insult questioners, who may not be well versed with formal postings.

*Best way is to guide the questioner gently and politely, being in the decorum

Are you the OP?

I think you have missed the point completely, please read the relevant posts again, we had a guest looking for business from someone who needs a patent.

Even legal patent lawyers are pretty "shark like", what will one be like who does not properly identify himself? And why does he not want to identify himself? It looked as though he wanted to maybe "steal" the ideas.....possibly......no guarantee either way....

I was trying to act safely, for the benefit of the OP only, "better safe than sorry!"

Furthermore, it appeared that several others supported me in my thoughts.....

A Guest logon does make things look suspect......the guest should simply join CR4 and the problems are possibly solved....

Some pretty important areas that the OP needs to be warned/made aware of.......I feel that you have simply "gone off Half cocked!" Fairly typical for many on CR4 sadly.....

Have a great day anyway.....

Any idea you have that is worth pursuing, will be, by others.

If you don't have the resources to patent it and can't afford a prototype, how are you going to pay for an attorney when the wolves show up and you have to defend ownership?

I have been down this path before. I suggest you forget the patent route. Instead carefully document the idea verbally and with as many diagrams as needed to properly argue it's merits.

Then place everything into a heavy express mail envelope, seal it well and then mail it to yourself from the post office being sure to certify it with signature card upon delivery. Make certain that the date stamp on the postage is clearly visible on the envelope.

When the package shows up and you are asked to sign the card, be sure to write the date clearly, next to your signature.

Store both in a safe place and go about your business.

The post office has just legitimized any claim you have as to when you developed the idea and this is key in defending intellectual property in a court of law. You do NOT need a patent to do that.

Second by not patenting the idea, it is still a discreet matter for you to share by choice as opposed to the risk of the idea being trumpeted to the universe to anyone with an Internet connection.

There are guide books available for from the US Patent Office, free I believe, which describe procedures and acceptable formats.

You'd be prudent to emulate the accepted formats even if you choose to do a private documentation as I've described.

I didn't pull these suggestions from a hat. They were learned helping others develop mechanical drawings for applications, some of them attorneys, some of them applicants.

L.J.

Sorry but ideas mailed to yourself are not admissible evidence in court and prove nothing. A better method is to show to some select persons having signed and dated a non-disclosure agreement. There, you have witnesses. But even this can be dangerous. If you allow them to suggest improvements to your device you then end up with co-inventors. For now, the best thing would be to spend the $120 dollars on a provisional application. Good luck.

"Sorry but ideas mailed to yourself are not admissible evidence in court and prove nothing."

That's interesting. I was told this by the chief attorney of the patent law department of a Fortune 50 company who happens to have a masters in mechanical engineering too. It was reaffirmed by another patent attorney in private practice in DC.

The whole idea of a patent is who got the idea first.

A dated instrument is a fundamental document in settling any legal dispute, not just patent infringement.

Any assertion that such a document is inadmissible in a court of law is inconsistent with any of our civil judicial procedures, most of which can be traced back to 14th century English law.

L.J.

Yea, good luck with that.

The U.S. Patent Office uspto.gov has a free service where you can send them a sealed envelope to a specific address listed on their website. They will hold onto that sealed envelope for two years. That will give you more protection in a court of law if the question comes up as to who had the prior claim. It is more secure than a sealed envelope. You should then do the research and file a provisional patent. As a small business entity (which seems that you clearly are), the cost for filing is only $110 currently. The patent office will not conduct a patent search, and you must file for a non-provisional patent within one yeaar, or you will lose your patent rights. Whatever you do, don't publish any details about your idea until you have filed the provisional patent.

The USPTO strongly advises against it. Every Patent attorney I have spoken to says it is folly to rely on mail as invention verification. By the way, I have spoken with the guy who wrote the book and who all other patent attorneys consider to be most respected in the industry. Any idea who that might be?

David Pressman?

sorry duplicate

L J wrote "The whole idea of a patent is who got the idea first." That is only the case in a few countries. Most use the 'First to File' system and this is another reason why it is important to file a provisional patent to protect your idea and at not rely on mailing your idea to yourself method.

DG

I'd be a little bit worried about anyone who says that their company can help you, especially any of those invention submission companies.

Most of those invention submission companies are just patent lawyers just waiting for someone who will come up with a good idea but have one prototype.
BECAUSE: they usually have their own public notary and they will write phony paper against yours.

If you don't have a proto-type, and you tell anyone, even a patent lawyer at worst - consider you invention gone.
Stolen by the very sharks who say they want to help you.
And I wouldn't even trust anyone who works at the patent office.(As the one said send a letter.)

If you have a proto-type - you then have "reduction to practice" and that beats phony paper anytime.
By the way; the first question most patent lawyers will ask is:
Do you have a proto-type?
And I don't need to wonder why....

Take my word for it, I'm a patent holder and I know just how corrupt the system is.
For more information from a private inventor, check out -
So You Wanna Be An Inventor at: http://MyStupidRules.com/BX_INVENTOR_00.html

apply for patent

after receiving the patent look for a sponsor(which could be a company)

most important how good are you on selling an idea, that is sometimes even more important then the invention itself, and learn to handle rejection well.

Built the prototype and start finding a company that could manufacture it (again the sales rep comes into play)

Yeah, don't forget the arti-farti sales rep!

Where the hell are you?

GUEST,

It sounds good ,having got an impressive idea of a new product leading to dreams of prosperous new business and invariably we count the chicks prior to hatching. Don't know how close you are near to reality. It takes lot of twists and turns to get thoughts to reality, but one got to be determined in making this.

INVEVTION IS RATHER SIMPLE, BUT INNOVATION/ IMPLEMNTATION is the toughest next task and one got to prepare and work harder after invention stage.

*Well, coming to your query part, make sure your invention is qualifying to deliver an improvement and solves few issues connected to the existing technology / product.

*Ensure it bears the criteria of NOVELTY, INVENTIVE STEP AND FINDS POTENTIAL USE/ APPLICABILITY.

*For confirmation to qualify for a patent ,ensure by critical patent search that no similar invention exists. The GOOGLE search is a wonderful tool you can use to confirm this. What you got to do is to feed in key search terms related to your subject of invention.

*Once you are clear that no similarities exist, the next step is to technically confirm the feasibility of your invention by scientific confirmation by intensive literature survey or indirectly referring to experts in the field.

*The best way to protect secrecy prior to patenting is to go for a low cost simulation test by suitable mini model of very low budget just to verify yourself that your conception really is workable. This is just sufficient to test your invention part alone which is going to be your claim, related already existing and established components can be explained in the report. This experimental proof with methodology and inference will be of valuable support during the patent examination stage and keeps you comfortable and confident about your invention to convince examiners.

*If you feel that it is urgent to have your priority date of invention, go for provisional patent application, confirm by simulation test within a year and file complete specification.

Then comes the commercialization stage of proto modelling and technology transfer etc. You find lot of information if you search with appropriate key search terms.

Be determined to get set for a tough journey after ensuring yourself that your invention is a genuiene feasibility. Mere ideas won't qualify for a patent.

BEST WISHES.

I'm counting on the fact that anyone dishonorable enough to steal one of my ideas is too stupid and lazy to do anything with it. Sure, I could spend time and money on patenting my idea- and GE or Microsoft or any other rich outfit could hire an army of lawyers and buy a judge or three and get their hands on it anyway. Good luck to them. It won't be much good to them without my know-how and vision.

The day that happens, I close up shop and move to Galt's Gulch.

They'll find a way to steal it.