Cell phone and gas pumps dangers

This myth has been proven not to be true in several trials. The operation of a normal cellphone will not trigger an explosion of the fumes around a gas station.

However, cellphones have been known to explode when their batteries went bad (particularly if it's a cheap copy). So, exploding cellphone + fumes in a gas station = bigger explosion.

If I were the gas station attendant, that's what I would say.

By the way, gas stations here in the Philippines do display that warning near the pump.

regards,

Vulcan

Cell phone is always in human earth and grounded by default. Only time it will cause made gas station to go on flame if is made full of defects like one time I bought battery operated toy car and battery exploded and paper caught fire. Unfortunately label said battery was made in China.

Cell phone does not explode it is battery of the cell phone which arch and is the reason not to take out if you are not sure battery is original and not made in China

Cell phone does not explode it is battery...

You are correct. I did mean that it was the battery but somehow mentioned the words "exploding cellphone". My apologies.

However, to anyone unfortunatle enough to have experienced such an explosion, the difference would not matter.

regards,

Vulcan

" The attendant claimed a danger of explosion."

The attendant is an idiot. The odds of a cell phone initiating an explosion at the gas pump is even less than any of her customers winning big at Lotto.

I hate dealing with the uneducated or clueless or usually vastly misinformed and superstitious public. I work with devices and equipment 90% if the experts in their own fields cant even comprehend or understand correctly.

I saw a person get warned about a cell phone once while filling up in a Minnesota gas station. The attendant came out and did the same warning routine while on the exact opposite side a jackass lit a cigarette with an open flame lighter and smoked it while the customer and attendant discussed the cell phone!

The smoker with an open flame never even got a second look! WTF!

Welcome to the 21 Century American educational system at its best!

Anyone still wondering why third world countries are kicking our collective butts in all most every thing now adays?

As far as I know metalSmiths has the safety facts right and tcmtech has the American educational system facts right.

Back when I could afford a little Cessna time I would always use the big ground wire with the big ground clip to ground the airplane before pumping in fuel. This did a good job of grounding the plane and a pretty good job of discharging me and therefore it was safe.

Detroit could never justify spending 50 cents to put a ground point on a car and most Americans would never use it anyway. Thus, scratch the safety procedures used with airplanes.

Without a cell phone most of us get out of the car, maybe go to pay first, then grab the hose. The end of the hose is in the overall pump housing and therefore it is initially grounded. I don't know if there is a ground maintained in the hose, but when we insert the end of the hose in the car we make metal to metal contact without having strong vapors present. Once we pump we often have strong vapors at the end of the hose. If we stand there until we are done then there should be no sparks.

Here is the problem. If we get into the car we might (a definite YES with my wife's car) generate enough static electricity to create sparks. Somehow my rear on those car seats is a big ESD generator. So, the real problem seems to be getting back into the car after starting to pump the gas. We can't get people to stop smoking while filling up. There is no way we can get people to not enter their car while filling up. But when News At Eleven shows someone talking on a cell phone before the car bursts into flames it makes a lasting impression on people. Somehow most people are willing to accept that the cell phone will make the gas pump explode. Most of them also tell you not to talk on the cell phone during a lightning storm (even indoors) because the lightning will travel down the wires and kill you (while talking on a cell phone with no wires). But, everyone knows that trying to tell someone that they can't get back into their car while fueling is nonsense.

We engineers are handicapped when it comes to understanding this.

GAs all around.

Static (usually women who jump in and out while pumping) HAS been caught on video causing such an explosion.

Couple of years ago a self-proclaimed fireman stomped over to my B-I-L to tell him to quit smoking - he had stepped well back from the pumps because of possible fumes. My B-I-L looked incredulous, confirmed the man says he is a fireman, while looking him in the eye threw his cigarette on the ground, yanked the spigot out of the tank and sprayed 87 petrol / fuel on the butt - extinguishing it.

"I'm surprised they let you out of school so damned ignorant of ignition points" he says.

I pissed myself laughing.

I've myself seen that done when someone told a mechanic cleaning parts not to smoke, and he threw his cigarette in the gas and glared at the guy who told him what to do.

Of course every now and then all arrogance conspires to cause explosions.

On one hand that wire around the nozzle of the gas pump is actually there as a spark suppressor, and you are, especially on cold days when the air is dense to make sure and touch metal to metal prior to the beginning of the fuel pump.

Truly sparks will cause explosions, whereas the tip of a cigarette without compression as a hotplug, will not.

One of the shocks of my life came off the tip tank of a Learjet.

Oh yeah, they have that shape and it is normal for a guy to put his hand out.

Exactly, and unless the fumes just happen to have a 1:17 fuel/air ratio they will not explode, no matter how many Hollywood movies depict otherwise.

Greetings.

Just received this from a friend.

Haven't checked the authenticity of this article but sounds very feasible....................

Hmmmm.... sounds suspiciously like typical internet nonsense to me. Not being a EE, I really don't know if a cell phone can generate a charge that would ignite gasoline fumes, but assuming it could, this suggests that cell phones contain a "fume magnet" !!! In the "cases" mentioned, when the cell phone ignited the fumes, the results were burns only in the area of the cell phone (face, groin,...) !?!? I would have expected the fumes to migrate in all directions and become less concentrated (much like 'passing gas").

Secondly, if Shell Oil really thinks this is a real problem, I would expect to see billboard sized warning signs at all Shell gas stations.... I have not!

Finally, I would think that using a cell phone while pumping gas, is far safer than using a cell phone while driving!!!

GA!

If the spark from a car starter doesn't ignite gas stations regularly, it is almost impossible to get enough energy from a cell phone.

We should start a warning for policeman to avoid using a Taser at the gas station. That would be much more likely to cause an explosion, especially when they do their test in the air.

You're missing the point.

It's a cumulative effect of casual distraction which presents the threat.

Sighted a printed copy of this (from memeory, didn't keep a copy) nearly 9 years ago in Aus. Took it with me to the local petrol station and in was discounted as a "fraud" at the time.

There was some discussion as to whether signal strength from some phones could interfere with the metering signals from the pumps to the cash registers. We also discussed the risk of fires from static and the owner confirmed that it was likely the actions of individuals (developing static) that was the risk rather than the phones in use.

By the way, smoking is not allowed in stations in Aus and ALL petrol pumps (not diesel) cannot be set to auto fil, so you cannot "disconnect" yourself from the fuel nozzle.

Thank you very much to all.

I feel better now. I knew that I was right but it doesn't hurt to check just in case...

Do you have authority issues too? Or are you selective about ignorance

Are people ever going to used informed and balanced judgement?

No, and remember that the only thing more futile than arguing with an idiot is thinking you can win the argument.

marcot, you did the right thing, complying with her. it was good she didn't ask if you've read your mobile phone's manual, too.

from the past, so many laws, rules, policies have already been crafted, legislated and implemented, that on hindsight were actually senseless and baseless.

this rule on mobile phone usage in gas stations is one of them. the thing is that even mobile phone manufacturers would like to wash their hands on such supposed incidents, writing on their operating manuals that the phone should not be used in areas and places where it is indicated that it is not safe to do so (UAE gas stations have 'em).

instead of disproving such tales, mobile phone manufacturers have decided it is much less expensive to issue a disclaimer, than go through the exercise (and expense) of proving the safety of their devices. economics plays a big role in business decisions.

IMHO, as Engineers, we know better. it's up to us whether to use this knowledge like a bat to break up the heads of the less-informed, or to go about our lives quietly and seek the ways of peaceful interaction with our fellowmen.

when in Rome, do as the Romans do. when in a gas station, do as the gas tender tells you to. peace!

The rule of not using a cell phone when fueling may not pertain to the potential for explosion. It could be a distraction allowing a state of complacency.

I would except the requirement to attach a ground strap before fueling without complaint.

driving *and* using the mobile phone is a driving offense in the UAE.

what I'm pointing out is this, as an example. please read the bottom section of p. 103, of the Nokia 9500 Communicator manual, under the title "Potentially explosive environments".

methinks requiring one to attach a ground strap is taking it too far out. but if gas stations require it, they should also be able to supply and attach it themselves, without bothering the car owner.

Yes, economics (greed) plays a significant role. Profit versus liability.

Big billboards or laws prohibiting the use of cell phones at gas stations may significantly reduce the number of cell phone plan minutes which cuts into revenue.

Cell phone can be dangerous for the job of the pump operator...

After 16 years running a service department responsible for over 4,500 filling stations I think the answers so far have addressed the main points, but I think you have all missed the most important point.

When you are filling up with petrol, which is a most unforgiving of explosive liquids you should be giving 100% attention to the task not chatting on a mobile phone!

I have never heard of a cell phone triggering an explosion, but there are plenty of tales about static electricity causing the trigger spark. Most well maintained petrol dispensers are well grounded including the hose and nozzle but there will always be the occasional incident where the ground connection breaks or unauthorised components are fitted. This also applies to the vehicle - you assume that the petrol filler pipe is grounded via the chassis and tyres but it could have several thousand volts static charge relative to the nozzle when they touch.

Also remember that petrol vapour is heavier than air and will flow under the vehicle and all around your feet so the 'flash' when it occurs will involve a lot more than your eyebrows. Getting a 'splash-back' from careless overfilling will stay on your shoes and lower garments for a long time and the explosion could happen as you drive away and light a cigarette!

I have heard of cellphones affecting the computer and data transfer in the pump head so you could possibly scramble the sale, (you wouldn't use a cellphone in a hospital - same reason). Once again this should not happen on a well maintained dispenser.

I'm sure we all know it could never happen to us or our wives, children, mothers, fathers, etc, but it might and we should be willing to accept the possibility and show a better example when filling up.

The theory is that cellular 'phones are a potential spark source. If you're filling your tank and your phone either rings (for any data source) or is shut off while at the pump, the vapours can ignite. There are visually documented cases of this, where security cameras have filmed explosions. Driving by a pump while a pump is inactive is not considered as hazardous, since there are no fumes immediately next to the vehicle; the motion of the vehicle dissipates any other fumes below LEL (lower explosive level).

The one thing that no one has referred to so far, that could conceivably be a source of ignition is the vibrator. I've never taken a cell phone apart to check, but I assume that the vibrate mechanism is a tiny motor with an off-center weight. If that motor uses brushes, then there could be sparking. Now how enough fuel vapor could get that far inside the phone is another matter.

I think the bottom line is that cell phones are now so pervasive, that if they caused fuel fires, we'd be hearing of them regularly! I haven't heard of one!

You stole my fire! (pun intended)

The ones I have seen are indeed off center weights on a tiny DC motor.

It also occurs to me that while the key pads are usually conductive rubber switches, the cover switch on a flip-phone or even a slide would probably be mechanical and much easier for vapours to get to.

As for arguing with a gas attendant... They're not payed or trained to use common sense. They are trained and payed to follow the safety rules set down by the government and their employer.

Gordie.

hi,

I am not an expert on this topic, but here's my bit!

I have seen enough programs on this topic on discovery channel to agree with you that it is highly unlikely that a cell phone will cause a gas pump explosion. however the myth(?) is so engrained in society that you are really wasting your time fighting it.

rather slip your phone out of sight when pulling into the gas station. then no-one will bother you.

rgds

Dave

The mobile phone when switched on will be transmitting every couple of minutes to keep it's link to the local mast - that's in addition to you making a call. If you have a cellphone near a normal radio you will hear this 'galloping' chirp signal every so often over the program.

The RF signal will be small but it can be picked up by metal objects in the close vicinity and add to the static charge already there to a point where a small spark could be produced. If this spark is within a zone which has the right mixture of oxygen and petrol vapour the mixture will ignite. The right conditions don't happen very often but the consequences could be pretty serious - why take that risk.

Cell (mobile) phones are banned on every refinery, LNG plant, chemical plant etc. all over the world, I wonder why?

The reason is as stated by someone already, these things are not intrinsically safe so they may not be used in an area that could contain hydrocarbon vapours.

Phone radio waves, I do not believe, have anything to do with it.

I know you are driving a petrol engine into the station, but you are switching it off while fuelling. Your cell phone could well be within a few feet of the gas source.

The fact that Mythbusters (as mentioned in one post) did not manage to ignite anything with one is, of course, totally irrelevant. I did not see the show but I doubt whether they went through all the testing that is involved to simulate all the fault levels etc that would be required for intrinsic safety classification.

People worry about unlikely things but still drive their car. The pertinence of this statement totally eludes me. Based on this we could do almost anything reckless and stupid just because fewer people die doing it than driving. Duh.

Firstly, "Mythbusters" is/was a television show designed to "entertain". Consequently, the show failed (quite significantly) to provide correct scientific data acquired in a scientific manner.

With regard to mobile telephones, I wonder why almost every military force in the world bans the operation (switched on) use of mobile telephones whilst refuelling aircraft? There are two factors at work here;

1] mobile telephones are not intrinsically safe.

2] devices that have the capability of transmitting "high energy" signals can cause voltage disparities with other objects under certain conditions (a spark). Don't confuse "high energy" with "high power". They are two entirely different things.

Before you "re-educate" the pump attendant, I suggest you "re-eduacte" yourself.

elkanqorito, Yes MythBusters is a show for {entertainment value} It may not have done all the tests for every possible means. Also in an hour long show, ["Consequently, the show failed (quite significantly) to provide correct scientific data acquired in a scientific manner."]is not possible {agreed}and maintain entertainment value for the general public.

In the OP's question, I mention the show because it showed the most likely causes of auto/pump fires. It did not say the phones would not cause a fire just very unlikely.

The show did show the conditions of air,fuel vapor and a spark needed to be correct.

Just like liquid gasoline does not burn but the the vapor given off does. An example I've seen before; a small engine fuel tank has a small amount of gasoline in it, the vapor is ignited by a match and the flame dances over the opening until the liquid is consumed by evaporation and then the fire flashes into the tank and popping it.

Just as unlikely if your were refueling an auto in a lighting storm, Could that cause a fire YES but conditions would have to be correct. I would worry more about the lighting strike than a fire hazard though.

Also to your comment about the military, could it also be not being distracted by the phone ringing any you trying to answer it while working in a dangerous environment?

Anyway I was just giving an example that fit with the OP's question and it had a link to a show that they could view if they chose too.

Charles

metalSmith's

This topic is pure media hype. The issue is more of getting in and out of your car creating a static electric charge that "could" possibly create enough of a spark to ingnite the fuel fumes. The media has yet again latched onto an idea, and blown it out of proportion, without proper research.

You're all hat and no cattle

Yes, a cell phone can cause an explosion when used near a gas pump. Based on the current ignition curves if a spark or arc produces enough energy to ignite the surrounding gas fumes an explosion can occur. The concentration of fumes would need to be at the correct level and the phone would need to spark or arc. Chances of this happening are remote at best but, it can and has happened. It is best to leave your cell phone in the car or at least walk a few feet away from the pump if you must use your cell phone.

With tongue in cheek:

From what I observe of people using cellphones, all the moving around, waving hands, and inattention to what they're doing, produces static electricity. So, using the phone could generate enough static electricity to ignite the gas fumes in a gas station.

regards,

Vulcan

Here in Oregon, Self Service gas stations do not exist. ALL fueling stations have full time attendants that pump the fuel for you. In fact you will get seriously yelled at if you attempt to fill your own vehicle. Oregon state law says that it is Illegal to fill your own vehicle with petrol, It must be accomplished by the doped up high school student working for minimum wage.

So... Most people never even open their door, or set a foot on the ground, But everyone and their dog is on their cell phone while getting filled up. Go figure, I see people all the time pull in to the station, sit in their car light up a smoke, and pull out the phone while waiting for the attendant to come service them.

Here in Texas if you wait on someone to fill your truck you will be waiting all day! I can't remember that last time I saw an attendant who would fill your tank while you had a smoke and yapped on your cell phone. Just this morning I stopped for gas and some idiot left his car running, was talking on his cell phone while filling his tank! It is posted everywhere to turn off your ignition, turn off your cell phone before filling up. I sometime wonder how some people make as far as they do in life since it is obvious they lack common sense.

I sometime wonder how some people make as far as they do in life since it is obvious they lack common sense.

Many spend their entire life in the room of grace

If a 3.7V 2A operated cellphone is too powerful to be operated in gas staion, please explain why we are allowed operate a 12V 200A (300 times more powerful) vehicle in same place. According to the cellphone ban, all cars should park outside gas station with engine off, battery removed and tow in to fill then tow out.

There are parts of a car (even ignoring the exhaust pipe and ignition components) that can produce sparks which could ignite gas fumes. They are not located inches from the fill pipe (as a cell phone ringing in your pants pocket might be) and your not supposed to operate them while fueling either.

The 3.7V cell phone has special circuitry inside designed to produce extremely high voltage gradients near the antenna (I have actually gotten a burn on my finger from touching an antenna which lost some of it's insulation) and other components which generate sparks in the same way the car can (like switches and motor brushes) which could (very rarely) cause a fuel-air mixture to ignite.

I understand that smashing dynamite with a hammer is extremely unlikely to cause an explosion, but I'm not going to start doing that every few days. I'm certainly not going to argue with an explosives delivery truck driver that it's perfectly safe for me to shoot at his truck because the odds of an explosion are a million to one. Wouldn't I look foolish if that was the one time it did (explode)!

Gordie.

"The 3.7V cell phone has special circuitry inside designed to produce extremely high voltage gradients near the antenna"

Like ignition on the car?

"The only free thing is a source of ignition." - Professor Trevor Kletz, international process plant safety guru.

All of the major oil refiners will not permit ANY electrical device to be used in the process areas of a refinery UNLESS it is certified as "intrinsically safe". This includes everything that is electrically powered - flashlights, walkie talkies, test equipment, etc. It only takes one spark (or hi temp point) to achieve ignition. The boys at Mythbusters only used one phone and gasoline fumes - I would like to see many models of phones tested in a proven explosive atmosphere such as 10% natural gas. They should use all of the phones features such as the camera and flash before saying it is safe. Granted the chances of ignition are small but would YOU want to be the one doing the igniting. I think not. We have many fires and explosions at self serve gas pumps each year in the US - mostly caused by idiots who should not be pumping gas. My home state (NJ) does not allow self serve gas and we almost never have a pump fire. I recently (3 days ago) completed a long road trip that took me thru 8 states and all of them were self serve states and all of them had higher per gallon prices than NJ. Edmund from NJ

Well, maybe they ought to get an expendable robot to conduct the experiment?

What would be really cool would be to film the robot talking on the phone, taking pictures or texting in an increasingly volatile environment till a really cool explosion was triggered.

I know a Rap Star who could make a song for it, and his best friend makes robots.

This has the makings of a really big hit!

Cell Phone Gas Station Death!

We must get a Robot that looks like the girl robot in Blade Runner! Absolutely required! Major Robot Character!

We could rent out the Fireman Drill tower and get a good Art Director in to dress the place, then send in the robots with their phones and they have Robot Love, talking on their phones till there is this climatic explosion!

Special effects cost money so what we have to do is get the Company that sells a phone that doesn't kill our beautiful robot, to finance the filming of the ad showing how their competitors product will kill you and everyone for blocks if it goes off at the local gas station.

Yeah, Harrison Ford and the Robot girl land for fuel and a phone goes off and they are both killed in a firey explosion.

A New Jersey Fireman told me about a flying head caused by a massive explosion at the gas station that decapitated a guy. Jersey City is dangerous.

Anyway back to the movie.

Damn this is the most fun I've had in a week or so...