even though its a complicated issue with price supports.

Corn should be used as food, not fuel. Diverting corn from food to fuel reduces the world's food supply while at the same time increasing the cost of the remaining supply.

But that is easier said then done, the corn farmers want to sell they product, ethanol plants buy supply, creating a demand, dairy and beef producers end up paying more for their corn, not necessarily selling their product at a higher price to cover their increased over head cost to cover grain price increase.

And until you realize the full consequences, then you can make statements like that, And just because the farmers who actually produce these products are in fact just a fractional minority, They are a intrical part of the production of the grain, food or otherwise.......Matter a fact, without them there would be no grain.

phoenix911

I didn't say it would be easy. I realise that $ drives most of the world and if I had corn to sell it would likely go to the highest bidder.

Cheers

realize that.........along with the point of pro/cons higher price of corn hurts other farmers that use it as feedstuff.

good day,

You're right, of course. I don't farm. My world is much smaller than the real world.

Lyn

Personally I'd just like to see the agricultural subsidies removed.

I said its complicate and this is going off topic. Because when opinions are made with a large brush and they do not have a clue on the inner workings, it is only an opinion, an uninformed opinion but still just an opinion.

Eliminate subsidies, I would like that also......it is unfair on how it distributed, and it also keeps large farms (at least in our area) farming that should not.....its actually the smaller farms that are more economically stable and efficient.

The extension agent office that distributes the grants, makes it harder for the smaller farmer. An example....to protect the watershed quality they would tell the smaller farmer that they would get 90% cost sharing if they would sign up for the program,

They *(the pencil neck engineer) so call design it into a monstrosity construction program that anyone who is close to the land and understands it sees it will fail. and does fail, (its history reflects that), then tells the smaller farmer that they would only get 70% if even thats available, while the larger farms get the 90% because it costs more, but the percentages does not show that, with cash flow to cost or even herd numbers to costs. And its not more efficient, but want to install technologies like methane digestors and generators, because they can.

And then continue to say, you signed up for the program if you don't comply, we will shut you down.

One of the board members that determines the distribution of grant money, I should say ex-board member said that his problem what he saw was these green (and green means no practical life skills and experience in thier field) environmental engineers were trying to make the small farmers drop out.......

For development reason, who knows. But the number of government agencies is again but not surprising unbelievable....they are supposed to be working together, but are blaming each other for not communicating.....and the idiots have offices in the same building, just down the hall.

This could be another topic.....but maybe not. I'm switching back to On-Topic.

My apologies to the OP.

I said its complicated.

phoenix911

Diverting corn from food to fuel reduces the world's food supply

Only diverts the US farmers market share of food crops off-shore.

bwire,

Are you responding to the correct post?......

Yes, this last event sponsored by our govt caused a large sector of our food/feed corn to be allocated to ethanol production.

consequences: some unscrupulous enterprises burned their productive soils, contributed greatly to the nitrogen plume in the gulf and facilitated a waste of oil. During the time corn prices rocketed upward corn crops were developed offshore to fill the need for less expensive product. As a result the third world corn production capability increased in proportion to our deficit. We will internally increase the stipend to farmers in the foreseeable future but this will have less viability to the farmer because of a derived market imbalance.

We can produce ethanol from the stalk and leaf of the maze with greater proficiency than with the kernel. Considering the overall effects of appropriating the food/feed towards fuels.

what you say is true, one has to remember that even though ethanol production has been around .........what 1,000 years, it is in only its infancy for industrial use as fuel.

Just like the IC engine was the earlier model very efficient as compared today?

So is deriving fuel energy from grain, I believe I put in an earlier post, this is were bio genetics will play an important roll.

As far as the government meddling, for ethanol production, they should let the market decide that, and the government would have better results on putting these funds into developing biogenetics. instead of filling the pockets of so called entrepreneurs, who take from the top first.

When govvernments are envolved these scavengers vultures are looking for ways to get thier piece........kinda like what George Carlin said......to make money you need a con, with a con you make doe.......con....doe...con/doe....condo.

Corn? Pthweugh, yuk! Convert it to grassoline!

I grow food and fuel. Food comes first. Ethanol is good for you, for your health. I can grow corn with the cheapest fertilizer or I can use better quality fertilizers with a diverse mix of micronutrients. I can use less of the high quality fertilizer and produce better quality food. When the price of corn is higher I can feed the soil better and the microscopic organisms in the soil thrive and in return the plants, livestock, and people thrive. It is kind of ironic, the ethanol plants operate the most efficiently on the higher quality corn and can pay a premium for it and the lesser quality grain ends up being fed to cattle because it is cheaper. It doesn't make much difference on a $5.00 box of corn flakes if there is 5 or 10 cents of corn in it. The cost of energy has a much greater effect on food cost. When the farmers starve, the people starve, they just don't know it. This last statement sounds bad but it has some truth. I choose food quality over cheap as much as possible.

Ethanol is good for you?

Yep. I like that idea. <hic, splutter, wheeze>

or even switchgrass, this area is where biogenetics is important.

In South America, I believe Brazil or Argentina is more advanced in ethanol production

..........quite legally driven up by oil company financed backed buyers.

If it made economic sense to use food crops to supply energy for internal combustion engines then these terrible oil companies would make more profit by doing this than trying to stop it.

It's not the American way to subsidize an industry in a manner that lessens our market share at a cost to the tax payers while oil companies reap the profit of the venture.

excellent information

7000 gallons per acre? That does not sound right. Do you have a reputable information source to confirm that with?

We have near unlimited Cat Tails growing on local water ways. I would love to find out how to convert them to ethanol!

It's rare that I stump for the other guy but, If there is a Guru in the Alcohol business its the fellow whom I learned a great deal from, over the last 30 years of my study about Alternative Fuels. Iv'e been at this In 1 way or another, since Carter was President. Remember synfuels ?

The Number I Heard was actually 7500+ gal's per acre & the source was none other than, the 1 fellow, who has done the testing since the 70's , & written about 4 books on the subject, & teaches it too: David Blume.

Formally, with Mother Earth News & has worked consultating & sometimes building more farm based distillery systems than ,any other person on the planet . The ATF here in America has even loosened their private experimenters rules for permitting small plants because of the demand, he has created for the small family farm scale plant permits domestically.

There is a old rule in engineering: that you never take what another person has stated ,without 1st checking the numbers & I normally go that way myself But, If David researched & said it - as he has I know of, over 20 times in lectures - I would bet the proverbial farm on it, to be right & I Don't Bet On Anything.

You should read his latest book, I think - FROM 2005 : "Alcohol Can Be A Gas".

Were going to start selling it , @ our web site but, there's most likely a copy at your local library too. Recycle One !

See http://periculture.com or http://alcoholcanbeagas.com

You can listen to some of his radio broadcast posted on his company page too.

Best Regards,

Joe Woodall MP

Georgia Adobe

Thank you very much! I will be checking it out soon!

I typed the link wrong its:

http://www.permaculture.com/

Sorry About That

Joe

Thats even better than the Blue Agave, granted it will grow without much water in places not usable for much else.

The really neat thing about Cat Tails is the way you can use them on a large or small scale for water improvement. For example Community Waste Water Systems Can Benefit by planting these to clean up the water. Then they can be harvested and fuel made from the plant tops. The rest goes to make a great compost for dry land farming. The fuel can be sold or used to offset the operations of the plant & cost of Government.

This same method can be done on the small home scale too so those septic tank & chamber systems could feed your crop of fuel to run your car or home power system - at least in part.

There really is nothing like a Win - Win - Win Situation in farming.

Best Regards,

Joe Woodall, MP

Georgia Adobe

Sure theres a problem with it! Corporate and political greed cant get its fingers into the loop properly! That could put thousands of over paid stuffed shirts out of jobs and have them dumped out into the working force!

They will drive the nations suicide rate through the roof when they find out they have to live on normal persons wages while doing a full days work every day and not spread out over a two or more week period!

Well, Yes perhaps there are those dear souls, so mentally beaten up from their foreclosure and job losses , that just have no where to turn whom might contemplate suicide. Some call us every month still , mostly after they just lost the family home and just don't know what to do next. It was from this very basis that My Wife & I started Georgia Adobe, To try & help someone we knew, that was in just that condition. They had 1 acre on their families land left to their name after their business & home were lost during the 2006-2007 big uptick of this economic debacle. Today they have a almost -0- energy requirement home built for very little money - which fit their budget.

And, Large companies are getting their fingers into it , as you say, & really deeply already.

Investor funding for projects has all but dried up, for the medium sized & up 1 million Gal facilities , whom are those in the Big Alcohol fuels business , save for a few. Due to many conditions including not being able to sell their fuels at a quantity high enough to pay for their business models and ability to buy grains as need due to their lines of credit extensions being called .

Bankers aren't making business operational loans ,in a declining market or economy. Many Fuels plants have been sold to the oil companies or their subsidiaries in the last 12 months or more, due to the fact of these conditions & they were cash plus to do so.

When these businesses failed and bankrupted on their suppliers the new owners were not required to honor the earlier purchase contracts & earlier futures prices. This put farms out of their sold contracts for the grain . It was earlier sold to at a higher market rate than todays price due to market conditions , which included growing cost. Now they find themselves on the open market , one flooded by last years 1.6 billion tons of grain that was never sold & at a much lower price.

Question Time:

What happens to someone who looses their income & contracts for future income.

Answer:

They go under & the farm too in this case is bought up by those well healed enough corporations , having the cash to do and a need today &/or in the future for that same lands production. Wonder who that is:

Sure, The Oil Companies for one.

But as Micheal Corleone said to His Brother Tom Hayden In Godfather 1 :

"It's Not Personal Tom, Its Just Business."

Best Regards

Joe Woodall, MP

Georgia Adobe

The really neat thing about Cat Tails is the way you can use them on a large or small scale for water improvement. For example Community Waste Water Systems Can Benefit by planting these to clean up the water.

I'm a councilman in a community government; community waste water systems are endangered by these invasive plants because the root systems permeate the clay bottom and allow effluent to seep into ground water.

Mitigation ideas?

Yes Sir, You start again at the beginning and design the field to allow for natural processing of waste water through its Aquaculture and the proper plants growing within your project. This can be done on existing projects through a remodeling of the site work and proper detention of the waste water reserves, one section at a time & perhaps through the same land disturbance permit that allowed the original construction , depending upon the conditions of the same. Hope that answered you fully enough to be of assistance, If not phone me & I'll try & help you.

Best Regards,

Joe Woodall, MP

Georgia Adobe

The main feed animal for corn is pigs and pigs don't benefit greatly from distillers grain. Go ahead drive the price of feed up again it's a dull argument, energy is derived from what source to produce the ethanol from corn?

wow. gotta love all the disinformation in these forums.. first of call 1/3 of all the corn processed in a corn ethanol plant goes directly back into the food chain in a product called Dry Distillers Grains with solubles. This is an animal feed with very high protein content. Another small fractional part of the corn goes into syrup which is again animal feed. Corn oil is used in either bio diseal or animal feeds. Switchgrass, Elephant grass, algea, etc are all the future of the Etoh business, anyone who tells you different is an idiot. But there is one problem at the moment, they are the future, not the present like so many half informed arm chair quaterbacks seem to think. The cost per unit finished good is just so much higher for cellulose right now that it is not economically viable without massive subsidies. Brazil.. is the whole reason land use is being brought up, lets cut down the amazon to grow sugarcane to produce Etoh, great idea!! NOT!!

Guest,

wow. gotta love all the disinformation in these forums..

Your first mistake is taking opinions as information, as far as criticism is concerned, even though your post is more geared towards the original posts than most so far including mine, it would carry more weight if not brought on anonymously.

phoenix911

As Eric Zorn once wrote "the Internet is like a bathroom wall, any idiot can write whatever he wishes, and do so anonymously." (OK, maybe not an exact quote, but close to the point.)

phoenix911, is that your real name??? Are you that much different than the "guest" you are critisizing?

At least I am only partly anon. Most of the other people on this site have all kinds of nickname they hide behind.

Most of this post seems to be speculative. As far as which corn variety produces the most fuel, it would probably be the corn that has or can produce the highest sugar content. In my humble opinion.

You're right. I derailed the discussion with an opinion. I live part time in a big corn producing state and should have answered the question, or not responded.

Its a forum, debate is healthy especially when sometimes the subject is too big for a quick answer.

Fortunately, there were a few posts that answered the OP.

phoenix911

Hello Reid,

phoenix911, is that your real name???

phoenix911, of course not, but it is not anonymous is it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anonymous

there is only one phoenix911 on this site, compared to the number of guests.

And to compare consistency one can look at my profile and past posts.

Are you that much different than the "guest" you are critisizing?

Yes in my opinion I am different then the guest. And the reason is you yourself just prove it by directing your post to me phoenix911.

At least I am only partly anon. Most of the other people on this site have all kinds of nickname they hide behind.

It would be hard to take it any other way but an example is, it would be simuliar to the difference between a ass and a half ass. The difference, there is none.

But you know as well as I do, when it comes down to importance of a subject, we expose ourselves through email. Because we have, you and I. And that is hard to do with a guest.

So I would not call that hiding.

phoenix911

Dagnab it, there you go again trying to use logic!

OK, I will grant that with a nickname you are not completely anonymous. I will give you one point for that.

And with only my first name, I am probably as anonymous as you are!

Name the animals that benefit from feed based upon distillers grain.

Farm Animals, Take your pick!

Distillers grains is often listed in the ingredients of animal feed. I think I have even seen it on a few pet food ingredient labels before.

That's too broad a spectrum to realize a great disparity towards animals we depend on for food, this is the point and that which you are missing.

Beef and dairy animals, pets and fish benefit but the bird and swine industries suffer.

Kilomark, we do not have enough information.

First is location. There are desert plants that produce more ethanol than corn but you have to farm the desert (little or no water needed).

Corn grows well in the grain belt in fertile soil but if you grow nothing but corn your soil will soon have nutrient issues and production will drop. Crop rotation and fertilizers help to slow the process but corn does not build soil (cotton is even worse)

Second is corn production or ethanol the goal? Total carbohydrates per acre will answer the best ethanol producer.

But if ethanol is the goal don't limit your options. On the flip side the waste from grain produced ethanol does make high protein feed. So you have to look at the total picture.

If my desert was not so far north I'd be growing Blue Agave.

Brad

Most any variety will do but it is the green stalk that should used not the kernel to produce ethanol.

To answer the question posed by the OP, it's the sugar content of the corn that produces ethanol. You would need to research the sugar content of each variety, and the yield per acre, to come up with the maximum tons of sugar per acre. Then you need to look at the cost of raising the different varieties (high fertilizer, low fertilizer, no fertilizer, pesticides needed, etc.) against the sugar yield per acre, to figure your cost per ton of sugar. You should also check other sugar-producing crops such as sugar beets, sugar cane, etc. to see whether or not corn is your best bet ethanol-wise.

That being said, ethanol isn't the way to go. Shelled corn has 392,000 BTU per bushel. The 2.8 gallons of ethanol that bushel of corn will produce has only 235,200 BTU- minus the total BTUs input during the distillation process. Call that (conservatively) 50,000 BTU per gallon, and the net is only 195,200 BTU per gallon. So each gallon of ethanol wastes 196,800 BTU. You'd do better burning the shelled corn in a modern gas-producing firebox and using modern steam powered equipment.

My company is currently working on this technology- efficient, lightweight vehicles and equipment powered by shelled corn, wood pellets, wood chips, etc. In fact, they will burn pretty much anything combustible, rather than being shackled to either gasoline/ethanol or petrodiesel/biodiesel.

Corn uses too much fertilizer and water, and only gets 2.5 gallons per bushel (about 89 gallons per ton). Sweet sorghum uses much less water and fertilizer, and gets 120 gallons per ton when using a cellulose process like www.ire-incorp.com has. Ethanol from corn will cost about $2.50 per gallon to make, the IRE process comes in around 70 cents. That price differential alone will keep corn in the food chain. And look at the IRE plan for a balanced food/fuel/fallow cropping cycle to keep a balance in the food and energy production.