The Fear of Losing Face

I completely agree...
The same stupidity is evident in street gangs...You lookin' at me?
There was a question this week, to which the obvious answer was 'Ask the customer' this simplest of solutions was assiduosly ignored...
Del

Hi Del.

I know where you're coming from although the western equivalent of "loss of face" is embarrassment. Unfortunately, whether it's embarrassment or "loss of face", the same results exist....lies & fear.

My comments are more directed at Asian countries, where the culture (which is essentially the same as religion) has a profound indoctrinative affect. Most people, through peer group pressure, do not seem to be happy to "be different". Thankfully, this attitude is very slowly changing.

Yes, ok. If you want to get "sensitive" about it, the fear of losing face will suffice.

I would really hope that people from Asian countries respond with their true feelings about this. I don't wish to denegrate anybody but hopefully discuss the "in's & out's" of such a belief. To me, it doesn't make any sense in the modern world although it may have made perfect sense in a the world 1000 years ago.

Until recently, I lived and worked in SEA for many years. Loss of face fears are common and blank or even wrong directions are common place. Unfortunately, it is the norm and culture which may not change completely for another 1000 years. As a Westerner, you either learn to live with it or get a good guide book. Look it is their country not ours. Please do not be upset when these things occur. Just learn that you may never get a correct answer and move on. It is not natural for Europeans, Australians and Americans and you may never understand. If you are an engineer, you will find a solution to yet another problem. If you are a tourist, then you have yet another traveler's tale to tell. Do not try and change them…you will fail.

"Just learn that you may never get a correct answer and move on."

It is one thing for directions, quite another when trying to determine the type of metal products were made from (Its grade a aluminum....) thats the story and they are sticking to it, and no they don't have certs and yes the airfreight and analysis back home will be about a thousand dollars and youneed to make a decision NOW...

Or what type of machine they used to produce (I went in a shop whose brochure claimed they had thermal deburring; photo of machine and everything. Went up to the machine on visit: no electricity natural gas or other utilities hooked up to it. in another building, was a room full of women sanding edges of parts by hand...

So when it matters, either you have to create a process that allows them no degrees of freedom to deviate , in which case all risk is yours (You did it EXACTLY THE WAY I TOLD YOU???) Or you better have a very agile response to execute your plan B.

The more time that you spend building that relationship, the less likely these surprises are to happen, according to my clients. I haven't been there enough to know.

milo

Hi Milo,

"Handmade Parts"? It is Rolls Royce quality..

Suresh Sharma.

If only our customers didn't buy solely on price.

This was a study mission we undertook to get to the bottom of the "china Price' and the threat to our north american manufacturing businesses.

What we learned on this trip was that what the big OEMS thought they were getting and what they actually got were Not the same.

THis enabled us to make our case built on quality and transparency and chain of evidence...

Thanks for the insight ful comment

milo

Hi Milo,

Yes, another my difficult issues ... factories who I refer to as "museums", not because they have 'old' stuff, but have a collection of 'displays' of no value.

We do vendor surveys as often as possible, and always for potential new vendors. Here, more than I have seen before, is the tendency to buy an expensive machine, place it in a prestigious location, and put a large sign over it announcing what it is. My own tactic, when presented with such on a tour is simply, "Can you show me how it works?" Connected or not, functioning or not, very often, this 'display' is not backed by anyone who knows how to use it. It's a good way to 'un-save' their 'face'. NO, I don't use it as a matter of humiliation ... no need for that ... but if a potential vendor wants to take the time to show me his billion-dollar, thermonuclear, toothpick grinding machine, he will suddenly be on the spot to show me he can operate it.

Usually, that's a 'deal-breaker' on that particular vendor survey ... but not always.

I recently was invited to visit a new vendor who makes a particular type of part of which we use MILLIONS ... prior, we always purchased these parts from larger, well-known manufacturers, but this new company wanted a chance. I visited to find a very tiny operation, in a very small venue, with only 30 or so staff. BUT, it was clean, well organized, and was busy (that says a lot in today's economy). He, probably because he was a very new company, had one of these suspect machines, sign and all, but when I pushed to see it in operation, he immediately called one of the operators over, turned on the machine, and demonstrated it very effectively. We sampled their parts, tested the hell out of them, and they qualified ... now they are one of our suppliers. You can't always judge a book by the cover, and just because a company has a great facade or wonderful conference rooms (or, sadly, 20 years of experience) does it mean they (still) do a great job.

Kind regards ...

Actually, you get trainees in Sainsburys who have obviously been told that they must help you find stuff, even if they have less idea of it's whereabouts than you...
So whan asking youngsters I always tell them that 'I don't know' is a perfectly acceptable answer...it saves being dragged round the shop twice.

Del
(BTW. I lost my face once...but I found it in a mirror)

In the military we were taught to never not know the answer.

If you didn't know the answer your response is "I don't know, but I'll find out."

Isn't that a part of what critical thinking is all about?

...grade "A" aluminium.....

Point taken...and yes I have had the very same type situation. In Brunei ..." oh, no problem" was taken ALWAYS as..."no....problem" meaning "..."no..(there is a) ...problem".

Certainly, relationship building is a must. Allow the other side to understand that "no" is an acceptable answer as are "I do not know", "I can not", and "it does not exist".

Asia is different than the "West" get used to the idea or hire someone who is and can get the answers. I had guys who were 35-45 years of age who mentally "seemed" to be 15-17. They were educated but culturally would not give you the answer you needed. You were the Westerner and you were supposed to know--At first this was the route. Only after I gained their respect as a person...not as "boss"...did answers, solutions and opinions flow. Just know Asia is different. I am not "taking sides with them" just hopefully opening doors of understanding for you.

thanks.

milo

I had that experience, one Asian manager storming in, " you made a mistake!"

i checked his findings, "yes you are right, sorry i will correct it" took the wind right out of his sails

It applies to West as well as East.
"Yeah sure, we can sort out Iraq inside a year or two..."

My own good wife has exactly the same problem. When she doesn't know something she'll construct a reasonable sounding (but possibly wrong) answer. Being perfect myself I find this really irritating.

GA to you TinTin. couldn't agree more.... you complete me.

Re: "There is no earthly excuse big enough to justify it."

"Well , actually , Yes honey ... those shorts DO, in fact, make yer butt look like its own small planet."

well if they do, then you married her for that fact, so what is the crime? you are expressing your love for badonkadonk! If she gained it while you were together, then presumeably you shared many wonderful meals together.. also evidence of love. So you just tell her that if the jeans don't fit, its evidence of how much love is in your relationship!

Chris

Pineapple I totally agree with your words. It is not an "Asian thing"

As adults and parents it is out responsibility to ensure our children know and understand the difference between mistakes and failure. It is also our responsibility to ensure they know that to lie is NOT an option reguradless of the reason. It is a global issue that can change. Understanding is part of that change. I work in Asia tought me that most people there do not want to appear less intelligent than their western counter or boss. They will provide an answer..even if incorrect..much of this can be attributed to certain understanding of the language but much is due to not wanting to be or appear to be inferior. My hat is off to all the people I have workde with over the years in Asia. For Westerners, do understand YOU will need to check 2x or more if things are critical and your job or lives depend on the results.

Pineapple your Eastern view of the Western culture is not far off center. I would say it applies to greater than 90% of the West. They will agrue the case of you and I being wrong but why in California do many people complain about the "Asian Students" being "different?" Could it be due to "Asian Students" having pressure from family (as you point out in cases of HK and other Chinese childern) where most Western children do not have that pressure therefore glide through school. I know I will be brow beat for saying that but most westerners have no clue what "Asian" students go through.

There is an interesting film called Dark Matter that does include all these themes and more. The asian student lies to his own parents, as he does not want to seem to be failing. His parents work in laundry in China, and saved for years to send him to America... has Meryl Streep in it. While most cases are not this severe, the drama highlights some of the issues and barriers between cultures.

Chris

The number one reason for teen suicide in HK is "failing" school. Its too easy, all we got is high building. We'll rain teens after the big exam.

Also the idea of "fail" is not what you think. No passing is one form of fail. Not getting 10 A's is another. Usually its not the one that didn't pass kill themselves. It's the one didn't get all 10 A's.

Now you know why Asian kids are so good in school, its life and death.

For me, I won't be an engineer back in HK. No way I could get in university. College, maybe. Above average is not good enough.

I don't think Western education should change to the way in Asia. Its too much stress for the kids. We should teach them more value. Let them find out who they're and what they want. Not how other see them or what other want from them. Parent should point the direction but not force kids on the path. Too many great kids fail or die because parent told them they have to become a doctor.

Kids need to learn to say no. No this is not what I want to do. No I'm not who you think I'm. Parents need to show them everyone is different and different doesn't mean inferior. Failure in one thing (or more) doesn't mean failure in life. They (or we) need to find our own path. We can't keep comparing with others. Its different to have a goal to aim for then make an impossible life time goal.

"I know I will be brow beat for saying that but most westerners have no clue what "Asian" students go through."

Well I won't be doing any beating.

After Beast barracks- six weeks of hell for "new cadets" at West Point, The families are invited up for their plebe's first day of official acceptance into the corps of cadets . Its called "A day" or acceptance day.

We were so happy that our daughter got through it and were pleased to note that it was her accomplishment, and were grateful for her getting through it. It is tough.

Before we had to leave for the night, We walked to the Mcdonalds off post to buy our daughter an ice cream. Sitting at a back table was an Asian Cadet being browbeat into writing postcards back to family and criticized for having not spent adequate attention corresponding with important contacts back home while going through the rigorous training and being held pretty much incommunicado for the entire time...

We know that our daughter did not "glide" through her beast barracks. Nor did the Asian cadet. But boy, there was a huge difference visible contrasting the parents' reception of their kids at that moment. That Asian cadet was still writing postcards when we left.

milo

I believe we all fear to an extent loosing face. Do we not all try to look smart, dont we steal witty things others thought of before us. Dont we not get all hot and sweaty when we think that others joke about us. No I believe we all have that issue, its not just one race. To quote the bard. Oh would the lord the power to gie us, to see ourselves as ithers see us. Robert Burns.