Login | Register

Previous in Forum: Websites for e-Learning   Next in Forum: Working with Idiots Can Give You a Heart Attack
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







49 comments
Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32

Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 8:09 AM

Below is the link to the original.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/23800/?nlid=2161

Most of us are familiar with "the peter principle"

What is a better way to handle promotions?

Based on the computer model the researchers developed. Promote at Random, or alternate between the most & the least competent

__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Send to a friend Digg this Add to del.icio.us
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
Brazil - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Hobbies - RC Aircraft - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Hobbies - Automotive Performance - Hey there... interested in exchanging information about car performance? Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Porto Alegre - RS - Brazil 30deg01'39.73"S 51deg13'43.45"W
Posts: 767
Good Answers: 27
#1

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 8:23 AM

No, not at all.

It's because in big organizations, there's planning and human resource management that is in charge of continuously monitoring people in order to provide the maximum possible production. To accomplish that, the less skilled and dedicated people must be repositioned to where they will not cause troubles in the line: leading / management jobs!

If they promote good hard workers, who is going to do the job? BTW, its one of the principles of being promoted: more important than doing your job in a superb maner, is to keep good personal relationship and transmit your job knowledge every time is possible. Or you may be stuck in your position because there's no one to put in your place.

After all, if you think you are not recognized by your good job, go for it. Find another place or another thing to do, and say goodbye to your boss. I have already presenced some good raising offers in such situations. Not mine, unfortunately.

__________________
Something is wrong with me... I exterminated them like animals...
Commentator
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Aeromarine Vehicle Engineer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 76
Good Answers: 1
#2

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 8:41 AM

Based on my almost 40 years experience in Engineering in both Shipbuilding and Aircraft industries, most middle and senior management positions are filled by outsiders who were later found out to be incompetent.

Guest
#11
In reply to #2

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 4:12 AM

my boss in every organisation i worked for last 40years used to say i am looking for managers not engineers, hence all middle and top management positions were filled by incompetent outsiders who were injecting more incompetence in to the organisations and pick a higher paying job quit and leaving the organisations in mess!

crm

Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: united states, california san francisco bay area native
Posts: 389
Good Answers: 7
#33
In reply to #2

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/16/2009 10:59 AM

& the ever popular choice of hiring managers from a company that just went bankrupt, they in turn bring " their " culture .

__________________
give the hardest job to the laziest person & they'll find the easiest way to do it
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3357
Good Answers: 82
#3

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 9:05 AM

One way you could handle this.

First, you have to know the actual duties of the position and what kinds of persons can do those. If you want a customer service supervisor, there's no point in considering a cranky grouch.

Identify the people who have already shown those qualities or skills. Potential shouldn't count.

Rotate the position among those people, changing every six months or so. If a company is so screwed up it needs a "Lone Ranger" to save the day, it might as well go into Chapter 7 anyhow.

After a year or three, you've got several candidates whose qualities you know. Either continue the rotation or else let the qualified ones decide among themselves who gets the job. Some will stay and be happy with their boss (they chose him/her) and will be available when you need to replace the boss. Others might be unhappy and leave - they were maybe prima donnas anyway. Let them go and think about hiring them back after they get some sense.

__________________
"If you aren't gonna shovel coal, keep your hands off the train whistle!" - Jr. Zirk
Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 10:44 AM

Train your replacement as a method of cross training.

__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Defreestville, NY
Posts: 642
Good Answers: 48
#5

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 3:03 PM

At first I read that as "Why Impotence Spreads through Big Organizations" and thought thank God I work for a small company.

__________________
Enjoy every sandwich - Warren Zevon
Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brecksville, OH
Posts: 1362
Good Answers: 17
#18
In reply to #5

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 5:23 PM

If incompetence only spread through Big Organizations that would be a great reason to work for a small company. Unfortunately, I have worked for both big and small companies and found that either can have incompetent leaders; but either can also have good competent leadership. I personally believe it goes to the issue of the top corporate management knowing the people in their organization and their qualities and capabilities. Perhaps that is easier to do in a smaller organization. In a smaller organization a true leader will have a better grasp at which managers are the sycophants and which are the personnel who truly care about the success of the organization.

__________________
"Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" : Will Rogers
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Transcendia
Posts: 1758
Good Answers: 30
#6

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 3:25 PM

As long as the only way to get more money is to be promoted above your competence people will have a strong incentive to take on positions that they know they are not suited for.

In the Big Organizations the concept of working with your work mates, instead of for the Boss, is often lost. I believe that this leads to decay within the organization.

Some Big Organizations that became Authoritarian, as is Disney, end up partnering with a Company like Pixar, that is co-operative, so as to succeed in tandem through Institutional balance.

I myself posit that those Organizations that are primarily co-operative among themselves are superior. This could well be a personal preference. Still we are talking about Big Organizations.

My study of the US Civil War, and the differences between the styles of leadership if we compare Jefferson Davis and Lee, to Lincoln and Grant would tend to support my thesis since the Confederate States were led into defeat by Aristocratic Autocrats.

Grant was known for not stopping, but also for a very low key style of leadership with his officers.

The basis for Western Civilization which has wrought elevated standards of living come out of the conflicts between the Persians and the Greeks, and Athenians is also evidence to me of the superiority of co-operative cultures over autocratic cultures in competitions.

The flat out poverty and desperation of the peoples of North Korea now, further exemplifies the failures of Autocratic leadership styles.

This is a post on a blog in a thread, and not all of the factors can be addressed, or stories told.

In essence all I can do here is say that if within an organization, large or small, from my study and experience those organizations that inculcate the spirit of working with each other, instead of working for the one authority, will triumph in competitions.

__________________
You don't get wise because you got old, you get old because you were wise.
Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#16
In reply to #6

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 2:34 PM

FYI, Athens through a near true form of democracy became more power hungry than Sparta or Persia. Through democracy they got the bright idea to attack Syracuse. Through Democracy they followed Alcibiades, who when the politics turned on him ran off to their enemy in the war, Sparta and helped them for a while until he got caught sleeping with the Kings wife, then he ran off to Persia. Democracy is subject to the whims of the mob, Athens is perfect example of the failure of democracy (this is why you need a strong system of checks and balances). Authoritarian systems almost always function better than cooperative systems, true communism is a purely cooperative system of each person providing their skills and labor to their ability and in return receiving what they need to survive. No modern "democracy" is a true democracy, but rather a form of republic with delegated authorities to individuals (thus we a granted authoritarian system). Keep in mind Lincoln threw out the constitution during the Civil War, because in interefered with our ability to adequately and rapidly press the war efforts. We have a limited authoritarinan system of government in the Presidency, the limit is congress, and more over the judicial branch.

The real difference is in use and recognition of valuable resources and the proper application. Some large businesses lose the capacity to recognize these things. They become to embedded with the idea of business, they forget what they actually do in their market sector. It is much like the way we now educate teachers to learn about teaching, but not about the subjects they teach. Big business gets caught up in the idea of business, and forgets to seek talents in the subject of their business. Cooperative organizations that involve personnel from outside of the specific business line the company practices, lawyers, HR, adminstration, accounting, marketing, sales tend to fail dramatically, as these other business lines want ever large portions of the incoming revenue (even though they represent the non revenue earning side of a company). As you start paying these labors services more and more, the company starts losing ground. You eat your profit margins up with overhead. Large corporations will have a lot of overhead, and lack the flexibility to change the overhead costs.

Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Transcendia
Posts: 1758
Good Answers: 30
#19
In reply to #16

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 7:56 PM

Dear RCE, You and I are in complete and utter disagreement.

Yes many do misunderstand Democracy and don't know the difference between Mob Rule, Democracy, or a Republic.

In the short term an authoritarian will achieve protections, but in the long term all will come apart.

Dammit, everytime I think, I find reasons to agree, in part, with my adversaries.

Still I am not in favor of Dictatorships, and there is strong evidence that they are not the way to go for the long haul.

Jared Diamond did get upset about how the history of Haiti and Santo Diomingo was different because of one man. Later... Dinnertime. It gets in the way of the keyboard.

__________________
You don't get wise because you got old, you get old because you were wise.
Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32
#21
In reply to #19

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 10:41 PM
__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Commentator
Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Aeromarine Vehicle Engineer

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 76
Good Answers: 1
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/10/2009 6:37 AM

Good Article; however, I do not believe this will become widespread in fully developed nations because they are mostly a "class-based" culture.

Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/10/2009 10:15 AM

It does work, but is usually described as team based organization.

__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1729
Good Answers: 49
#20
In reply to #16

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 8:27 PM

There is no difference between true democracy and true communism, except as it pertains to property ownership. There is no reason that you can't have a true democracy, where the property and wealth are communal. Both rule by a principle of equality. We've never seen either. Russian and Chinese communism were/are simply dictatorships. Suffice to say, all political systems will evolve to serve the powerful. It is human nature at work. We must be smarter than the beast within.

Chris

Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 329
Good Answers: 14
#24
In reply to #20

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/10/2009 10:36 AM

"There is no reason that you can't have a true democracy, where the property and wealth are communal. Both rule by a principle of equality."

It appears you can have property and wealth communal, in families, small hunter-gatherer tribes, and, perhaps, monasteries. For those who believe that we are endowed by our creator with inalienable rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, large scale equality is impossible. As with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we have a need for self-actualization, which requires freedom and the right to property. He who cannot keep the fruits of his labor is a slave, and slavery is a no-no. Apart from our socialistic educational system, does anyone beleive you should lose some mental abilities in the name of equality? What, you understand calculus! Are you some kind of elitist?

Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#25
In reply to #24

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/10/2009 11:37 AM

But you can not even do it in a family or hunter gatherers really. There are in these groups some who receive greater benefits for less work, the spoiled or favorite child, the father, the tribal chief or medicine man. Plus Hunter-Gatherers and Families are very strongly authoritarian, it is just that sometimes the authority asked the advise of those who follow, but they ultimately decide not the children. Pure democracy always leads to mob rule, even the athenians had limitations on who was allowed to vote and considered included in their democratic process. Plus they had mandatory involvement requirements for all citizens, while still having non citizens such as slaves who had no voice (many, many slaves). And still one good speach and they rally to would build an army and attack a bigger stronger neighbor to expand their empire and gain wealth. True democracy is a farce, it always degrades into mob rule.

Guru
Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2336
Good Answers: 48
#26
In reply to #25

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/10/2009 8:54 PM

Every democracy that has worked has actually been some form of representative government or has radically limited who was a citizen.

Neither bad ideas.

__________________
Insert pithy quothe here - Emmett
Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1729
Good Answers: 49
#27
In reply to #26

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/10/2009 9:09 PM

I think we have entered a new era, made possible by the internet, where we could have issue based voting, and just basically remove the politics from government. It would be generic, and accurate to the understanding of the people. What is necessary to make this work of course, is mandatory education of the issues. CR4 does a good job of issue based resolution, if you follow what I'm getting at. These issue discussions form a reasonable basis for educating, evolving and resolving political and governmental issues. The voting would be private, but by registered voters... so no "Guest" voters. Audit controlled and reviewed for accuracy. etc. Now if only we could get CR4 to take over our respective governments!

Chris

Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2336
Good Answers: 48
#28
In reply to #27

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/11/2009 12:08 AM

Sadly I have little interest - California's referendum system has proven so dumb, and voters have proven so little interested in civic responsibility; they do everything but vote themselves circus'.

__________________
Insert pithy quothe here - Emmett
Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1729
Good Answers: 49
#29
In reply to #28

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/11/2009 12:20 AM

referendumb? lol...

back in the day, one of my favourite gods, R. A. Heinlein, in his book "Starship Troopers", proposed a system of voting by citizens, where citizenship was granted after a minimum 2(?) year stint in active duty military service, in defense of the given country. I think the extension of this was that you couldn't run for office without it either.

While I am basically a pacifist, I still can not deny the unerring logic of this plan. If you paid your dues in blood, your political positioning will not be bought lightly.

However, I maintain that issue based education is an absolute must. Even an honest politician can still go wrong by not understanding all aspects of the issues, and the subterfuge orchestrated by superwealthy organizations. Know Thine Enemy!

Chris

Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2336
Good Answers: 48
#30
In reply to #29

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/11/2009 12:32 AM

I think extending that to more than military service without getting it washed out would be excellent.

The biggest problem down here is no politician knows what is in a given bill because even the well intentioned are busy raising money for the next election, and our press doesn't was much ink on GOOD legislators.

So doing a good job is like pissing in your dark suit - warm all over but you are the only one knows.

__________________
Insert pithy quothe here - Emmett
Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Technical Services Manager Canada - Member - Army brat Popular Science - Cosmology - What is Time and what is Energy? Technical Fields - Architecture - Draftsperson

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1729
Good Answers: 49
#31
In reply to #30

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/11/2009 1:23 AM

lol. dark suit.. thats bad.

I watched a really fabulous piece of real journalism on bill moyer (PBS) with Wendell Potter tonight, all about health care insurance. (referred by Michael Moore's newsletter) It was great to watch the truth being told about that most vile industry, where lobbyists outnumber politicians three to one.

keep on believing...

Chris

Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Software Engineering - New Member Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2336
Good Answers: 48
#32
In reply to #31

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/12/2009 9:46 PM

Don't get me started.

And their numbers wouldn't matter so much if they didn't have all the money in the world.

Something changed and they are throwing their efforts at denial of claims AND cherry picking customers.

__________________
Insert pithy quothe here - Emmett
Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#34
In reply to #32

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/16/2009 2:23 PM

LOL, this has devolved into a question of campaign finance reform and special interest bribes to politicians.

The simplest way to resolve some of the ambiguity is to get rid of the consideration of a corporation in a limited equivalency to a person protected by our constitution. Then we limit donations to campaigns and political parties to only US citizens. Donations should not be tax exempt. Each citizen must donate directly, and we limit the maximum donation based on the minimum past 5 years (1 more then a presidential term) of declared net taxable income. thus these non-profit organizations (lobbyist) and corporations would have to find people willing to donate for them with same ideology, having sufficient incomes and are willing to take the tax hit. And, all donations should be publicly posted, no anonymous donations.

Also, something would need to be done about the lobbyist deals to get something done for them now with a promise of a lucrative job doing nothing after politics for the politicians.

Off Topic (Score 4)
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 329
Good Answers: 14
#37
In reply to #34

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/20/2009 12:19 PM

If giving money to a campaign is seen as expressing an opinion, then restricting giving is restricting free speech. Demanding "sufficient incomes" removes freedom of speech from the poor, and if the amount allowed is based on the minimum over five years, then lottery winners are not allowed to promote their views? If your political donations (not tax deductable) are posted, then surely you wouldn't object to having all your charitable donations (tax deductable) posted: church, gay rights, needle exchange, etc.?

Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32
#39
In reply to #37

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/20/2009 12:29 PM

Nonsense,

corporations are not the same as people.

Money is not free speech, money is access!

Fox news is the opposite of fair & balanced

__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#40
In reply to #37

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/20/2009 12:30 PM

Sufficient incomes could simply mean no more than the net income of the donor if they wanted, it doesn't have to be a small portion fot he income, though it probaly should be less than 50% of their net income. Since there is no means by which the poor could donate more than they make, trying to argue that we restrict the poor is flawed, we would only restrict those who are operating as a front for some organization. What this would do is restrict CEOs and such from using corporate funds to make huge donations under their own names, or from purchasing people to make donations on their corporations behalf. also political donations are not charitable donations, and for large donors the names already have to be made publicly available. You may be correct in the case of Lottery winners, but Lottery winners are paid out over many years. I suspect this would not be a big issue for actual lottery winners, though gamblers with undeclared incomes and criminals might have some issues.

Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geelong, Australia
Posts: 429
Good Answers: 19
#7

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/08/2009 11:36 PM

The qualities that get people securely embedded into a corporation (tireless self promotion, aggressive toadying, game playing, aversion to innovation and risk, etc.) are often not evident in the more useful members of the workforce.

Many Engineering types are happy to "beaver away" learning new things, solving self generated problems and developing cool stuff while they neglect the far more important things like interpersonal relationships, number of subordinates and title.

I hope that doesn't sound bitter, I'm not, the pills wont let me be bitter anymore.

__________________
If there's something you don't understand...Then a wizard did it. As heard on "The Simpsons".
Score 1 for Good Answer
3
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 84
Good Answers: 9
#8

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 12:41 AM

Part of the problem is that in order to move up, one must move often. The result is that managers are moving so frequently that they never learn how do the job. This further encourages movement as they must move before their incompetance becomes too obvious.

The end result is that we wind up with experienced managers who know less about the area for which they are responsible than a recent hire with only months on the job. This unknowing manager then becomes responsible for hiring the next crop of employees and the chain progresses.

Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member Australia - Member - Torn and breading

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Magnetic Island Australia
Posts: 1118
Good Answers: 13
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 1:43 AM

That is hitting the nail on the head. GA. And it just keeps coming, never the less. The chain will be the weakest link in the end.

__________________
You can take a Hamburger out of Hamburg but you can't take Hamburg out of a Hamburger (my POB)
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 356
Good Answers: 14
#10

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 3:33 AM

Garthh

The annual promotion results are of thrill and a matter of curiosity in all organizations. I would like to add few points from my experience.

*The so called organization structure, grade structures, scales, bench marks etc are all mere hum bucks ,particularly in the corporate sectors. These decorations are for company structure presentations and work less closer to reality.

* In management of humans the carrot and donkey story, a constant run [performance] for the never reaching carrot game is set.

*In many of the corporates people on the evaluating cadre, Key H.R managers are constantly on the move or fired of their positions.frequently. Over all there seems instability in the top lines, and reasonable stable bottom line suffers continuity of opinion from superiors.

*Most of the promotions are granted by the top management, based on the M.D/Chairman"s discretion. In the management's scaling on promotions, the following factors are in favour of facilitation criteria for promotions. Stability of the person, reliability, trustworthiness, honesty,efficiency, leadership,contributions to organization, concern to the organization, dedication and commitment, cost cutting contributions,product development, competitor counter strategies, impressive presentation of ideas, image and acceptance by fellow employees, consistency, acceptance to criticism,attitude to change himself and change others, positive influence over others,knowledge,learning skills,adaptability to changing phases,problem solving skills, loyalty,creativity and innovation skills.

*Many employees assume mere passing of years get criteria or a hierarchy in seniority levels can fetch promotions. Many adapt tact ices to impress upon bosses.

*The major defaults occur by the unfair evaluation and recommendation process fostered by nepotism,biased opinions, suppressing a potential person as competitor,short sight narrow views of the bosses,revenging attitutes to show powers, that many minds are suffering.

It is clear that it is shear game of survival and usually the strongest wins and managements favour long term averages than short lived super stars.

*For people looking for due promotions ,your coherent relation to your superiors and management, impressive presentation skills on your contributions without hurting any superiors views are critically important. This process requires careful planning. Many people take emotional decisions of resignations etc, find new jobs, find incompatibility in the new atmosphere , leading to frustrations.

*If one is sure his ideas are not considered, quit and jump into the game of entrepreneurship. You will perform much better and become more responsible towards your goals.

*A well drafted self appraisal system with clause for value based ratings and freedom to express contributive worthy ideas and a fair evaluation system can minimize these promotion issues and de motivation problems.

*Proper time is to be allotted by one and all concerned involved in the process.

Guru

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Posts: 1539
Good Answers: 41
#12

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 4:55 AM

I once worked for an excellent company which paid its engineers more than its managers. They deliberately employed managers with degrees in "the classics". Of course you could still climb up the "engineering ladder" or the "management ladder", but, there was no incentive for good engineers to become bad managers which I've seen in so many other organisations.

__________________
The early bird catches the worm, but, look what happens to the early worm: Alfred E. Neuman
Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32
#13

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 9:53 AM

Then of course there are the "human resources" managers who generally do the initial screenings for hiring & promotions. These people tend to value the traits that make good HR mgrs. above all else. You would think the focus on soft [people] skills would give insights. Nah they fall victim to their own flawed mindset & promote the best bullshitter. There are probably good HR people, I hope one day to meet one.

The care & feeding of technical people is tricky stuff.

__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Guru
Spain - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Nuclear Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 639
Good Answers: 21
#14

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 1:14 PM

Hi my friends,

That's like and old "deja vu". See for example http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/26552/Why-Employees-Leave-Organizations

I'm more and more sure every passing day that "Peter's principle" is obsolete and has been replaced by "Dilbert's principle" It's even easier to apply!!!!!

Kind regards

__________________
It's stupid to discuss about AI: We´ve reached by the "B" way. We' ve producing men as clever as machines.
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Northeast corner of the sphere
Posts: 234
Good Answers: 6
#15

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 2:26 PM

My experience has been that the people who diligenly apply themselves to do the best job that they can get to stay in that job.

The people who have little competence in their jobs generally try to push their assignments onto others, rush through with hack work, and spend the better part of their efforts towards more face time with the boss claiming as much credit as they can get away with. These are the ones who end up promoted.

For this reason, you end up with managers that are utterly clueless about what they are managing, as evidenced by edicts issued by fiat without regard to the consequences (hence the clueless) to their staff.

__________________
How can you be two places at once when you're actually nowhere at all?
Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 329
Good Answers: 14
#17

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/09/2009 5:21 PM

In my former employment, we used to note that the shit floats to the top. Upper ranks tend to be narcissistic bullies who promote their careers rather than the mission of the organization. One, who had just been promoted, confided in me that I could not be promoted until I learned to tell lies. Ambition leads to a consciencectomy.

I once tried to alert the manager of an aircrft program to a major fault (one of many) in the design. His reply was this: I don't care. I'll never have to fly it. My job is to bring it in on time and under budget. He was promoted, to manage an even bigger program, which he screwed up against the advice of good engineers, resulting in it being years late and over budget. Having demonstrated his incompetence (or his managerial ability to salvage a lost cause, his ability to sell excrement as chocolate ice cream), he was promoted again to overall management of all new aircraft programs.

Guru
United States - Member - Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Malaysia - Member - Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Vibration guy Hobbies - Musician - Wannabe Guitar Hero

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 3°10'36.60"N 101°40'15.58"E.
Posts: 1654
Good Answers: 74
#35

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/18/2009 4:06 AM

The company I work for employs about 100 VP's just in the HR organization alone. That is why incompetence spreads throught big organizations.

__________________
Dan kebenaran akan membebaskan kamu...Veritas vos liberabit....La vérité rend libre..... De waarheid is bevrijdend ..... La verdad te libera....The truth will set you free.
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#36
In reply to #35

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/20/2009 11:17 AM

And that is why you can not have a democratic business structure. Those 100 HR VPs will all want more assistants, enough to have a personal assistant and a staff to do the work. Those HR guys, just like the marketers/sales, will want fund reallocated from the technical billable side of business. They will just figure add a little more to the overhead mark up on projects, since winning the projects is actually the responsibility also of the technical billable professionals.

Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32
#38
In reply to #36

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/20/2009 12:22 PM

The company Steve work's for is certainly not a democracy.

The good ol' boys are always gonna get paid [in whatever currency] no matter what the alleged structure...

Management always makes more than talent.

What structure minimizes management?

Where is the line between effective leadership & needless overhead?

__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#42
In reply to #38

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/20/2009 6:09 PM

Well there are a few cases, in mostly mid to small sized companies, where you see management promoted from the most talented personnel. This kind of promotion structure leads to the respect of the new talent as they know their boss knows what he is talking about. Additionally, frequently if you use talented people for management you get talent in the staff, as they are to some degree mentored and learn along the way. The ability and desire to manage and mentor staff may not initially seem suitable to talent, but the thing is intellectually talented people learn extremely rapidly (assuming there is some rational behaviors to learn as some corporations behave totally irrationally to favor indiviual managers self preservation).

Guru
United States - Member - Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Malaysia - Member - Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Vibration guy Hobbies - Musician - Wannabe Guitar Hero

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 3°10'36.60"N 101°40'15.58"E.
Posts: 1654
Good Answers: 74
#43
In reply to #38

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/24/2009 11:04 PM

Perhaps not a democracy, but there is such a consensus culture that it might as well be. Our new CEO has made a lot of noise that sound like he wants to move us toward being a leaner and more nimble company, but then as we go through a reorg instead of making crisp, quick, decisions we are going through a HR hand wringing exercise where everyone ends having to reapply for their job. Keeping those 100 HR VPs gainfully employed....

__________________
Dan kebenaran akan membebaskan kamu...Veritas vos liberabit....La vérité rend libre..... De waarheid is bevrijdend ..... La verdad te libera....The truth will set you free.
Guru
United States - Member - Lifetime member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mariposa Ca
Posts: 2829
Good Answers: 32
#44
In reply to #43

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/24/2009 11:26 PM

CYA

Reorgs used to be described as turnarounds

You do the hokie pokie & you turn yourself around, that's what it's all about....

Years ago I was working in a job shop at a valve company. We were on our 3rd CEO & 2nd "turnaround". He would try to be one of the boys, wanting to joke & chat, but it never rang true. We would spin around as he walked away...

__________________
50000000% of my Bath Breaking Technique Posts are completely made up.
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 329
Good Answers: 14
#41

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

07/20/2009 12:57 PM

The US Army is a Big Organization. Somehow, it functions, even without the discipline of a profit and loss statement. I'd like to recommend a book:

Muddy Boots Leadership -- Real Life Stories and Personal Examples of Good, Bad, and Unexpected Results

By John Chapman, Major, USA (Ret.) ISBN 0-8117-0166-2

Basically, it's about getting the most out of those who work for you and avoiding the chicken sh*t. Anybody in even a minor supervisory role could benefit from reading it.

A random quote: "Do not foster a "zero defect" atmosphere. No one can grow in that environment." Backed up with "authority": "You must be able to underwrite the honest mistakes of your subordinates if you wish to develop their initiative and experience." -- General Bruce C. Clarke

Another: "Leadership by statistics is the refuge of cowards... That said, it's a pretty common way for senior raters to sort out their subordinate's evaluation reports. Plan accordingly."

Or another: "The most consistent trait of the new guy is his refusal to ask for help, even when he is chin deep in shit and sinking fast." -- Capt. Randy West

"A form letter (with a personal note from you on the bottom) to your subordinates on their birthdays is effective. More effective is the same letter to their spouses on _their_ birthdays, with a note on the bottom. Only a handwritten note counts: use of digital signatures, or worse -- your secretary's handwriting -- will generate an embarrassing nickname."

Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#46
In reply to #41

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

09/14/2009 6:11 PM

of course a bolt provided to the US Army will have a 1000% mark up on it, and they will pay it without any concerns or questions (unless of course a news agency in an important congressmans district is reviewing the cost). The US Army is a perfect example of no matter how unskilled the management and labor force is for a particular task, if you throw enough money and over priced consultants (and believe me the consultants charge a premium to deal with the innane bureaucracy of the army) at the problem it will eventually be solved.

Guru
Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Transcendia
Posts: 1758
Good Answers: 30
#47
In reply to #41

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

09/14/2009 6:53 PM

This sounds descriptive of US Grant.

He would not stop. He spent no time on blame. He wrote another order.

He cried when he failed.

To me he was a real man, a real general, somebody who knew his business, and knew it was a tough business more determined by tenacity than miracles, fashions, or politics.

__________________
You don't get wise because you got old, you get old because you were wise.
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 1028
Good Answers: 23
#49
In reply to #47

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

10/29/2009 4:41 PM

Technically, Grant was a very poor general, He was just a drunk man willing to sacrifice any number of his better equipped men of which he had a much greater number of. I am not sure that the concept of winning by bing the most willing to sacrifice an overwhelming force of men and equipment is necessarily a sign of great skill, but rather a sign of either some degree of amorality or immorality. Though a lack of moral qualms about sacrificing men is a necessity for a good general. Sherman was probably a better General than Grant, more technically adept and he felt he could justify huis actions as a means to force the ends to the war. Keep in mind too that Grant had one of the most corupt presidencies in our history, amongst many others.

Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 329
Good Answers: 14
#45

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

09/14/2009 4:58 PM

A good read:(a NY times best seller)

"The No Asshole Rule", by Robert I. Sutton, PhD

It tells how to combat those workplace bullies, despots, and egomaniacs who destroy morale and productivity.

Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Tube Amps Only Please!

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Santa Clarita, California USA
Posts: 519
#48

Re: Why Incompetence Spreads through Big Organizations

10/28/2009 10:20 PM

I have seen managers get promoted just to get them away from the action. Engineers do not get promoted unless they are very good and they ask for it. Just a pattern I have seen.

__________________
Regards, maveric_manic - "Knowledge is Power and Wisdom is knowing how to use it"
49 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

agua_doc (1), ahuha (1), bhrescobar (1), chrisg288 (4), edignan (4), esbuck (5), ffej (1), Gannet (2), Garthh (7), Guest (1), Jerry New Hampshire (1), Kwetz (1), ky (1), maveric_manic (1), osborne83 (1), Randall (1), RCE (8), s.udhayamarthandan (1), Steve S. (2), stevem (1), Transcendian (3), TVP45 (1)

Previous in Forum: Websites for e-Learning   Next in Forum: Working with Idiots Can Give You a Heart Attack
You might be interested in: Business Insurance Services, Specialty Business Services, Power Transformers