Electrolysis of water

Plain tap water has enough electrolytes to allow electrolysis at 12 or 24 volts...

I think what you may want answered is what is the amount to give the fastest or most economical electrolysis using 12 or 24 volts??

John.

In 1839, Sir William Grove had this idea and developed world's first fuel cell, so you can have his design as well for reference.

Verry instructiv ,mr. Shyam!

Nic

sir i am astudent of MLNR ALLAHABAD .i want information about fuel cell in aerospace .sir i kindly request you to send me everything about it.i will be highly graceful of you.my id:prathimzn@gmail.com.please send till 16/09/09.

to electrolyze water you need a cell with a lot of area and a close spacing with a gas barrier to avoid gas mixing in the column.

You then need the right electrodes and just enough voltage to be efficient. Too high a voltage and get lower efficiency and in extreme cases you get gas blocking. Sometime they sweep the bubbles off.

A simple search gives this.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22industrial+electrolysis%22+%2Bwater&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

thanks for those informations and links , so far we have some good results with our generator -- in size /liters output-per hours and also the electronic controls --we basicaly work at 2% (solution earthfriendly)-- i will elaborate/update some time next year !

HTIME

if you Google(web and images)---Andrija Puharich Water--- you will find many answers regarding practical usages of electrolysis by a Great Master..Please share this information..Andrija would love that..He is the Author (and subject) of books about the higher powers of Mind and Healing...A genius genius...N.Tesla/W.Reich level....

Thank you for your comments / i will keep you posted on our finding /project .

HTIME

Andrija Puharich Water is a total fraud. Do not fall for this or any other smoke and mirrors science. Don't even waste your time. If I only had one comment to make it would be this, if this impossible miracle process worked back then, why is he not a billionaire and why has the world not changed for the better for everyone?

And no, government conspiracies or alien intervention don't count.

Jack - An ACTUAL power and distribution engineer with knowledge of science, electricity and how the REAL WORLD works.

Andrija Puharich Water is a fraud. No valid use will ever come of this method to get more out than you put in.

I went through his patent, it is all misconceptions and gobbledygook.

The patent office probably granted it as there was no prior gobbledygook like it and they are not concerned about whether or not it works.

Had it worked the world would have licensed it or simply used it from free after the expiration in 2000.

Aurizon is correct, lengthy scientific study (and numerous laws of energy, conservation and chemistry) PROVE that electrolysis of water will NEVER EVER EVEN APPROACH generating as much energy as is put into the system (let alone generating any). This has been thoroughly proven to be pseudoscience free energy rubbish.

The only purpose for water hydrolysis is as a lab science experiment to show that H20 can be split electrically to give H (although with HOPELESS efficiency).

Also another point, just because an idea or process is patented doesn't in any way, shape or form mean that it has ever, will ever work or could ever work. I have a patent myself, and I have seen patents that are so flat-out wrong that they are impossible, even if numerous physical laws of the universe are bent. Seriously, a 9 year old child could point out the flaws in some of these!

Merely another case of "smoke and mirrors" science (coupled with a poor understanding of scientific principles and hopelessly wrong lab work). Many fall into this free-energy trap, the trick is to learn from your mistake and move on to real science.

Methinks though protests too much.

Methinks I am getting a little tired of the influx of perpetual motion questions (especially over the last week). We have had heat pumps, magnet generators, better health thru free electron flow thru grounded bare feet and even Nicola Tesla's Scalar Energy popped up (with regard to a water desalination process of all things!), now the worst of the worst - water electrolysis. There is only so much pseudo-science claptrap I can handle.

I am all for free ideas and diversity but can we keep this an engineering site devoted to the pursuit of fact and science, rather than scientific "discoveries" (and I use that term loosely) that have proven time and time and time again to be nothing more than a flawed understanding of real science based on a lack of engineering and scientific knowledge and poor lab work results.

This is one of the best I have found and I would like it to stay that way. That's my 2 cents anyway.

"Those that don't listen to those that try to help will forever be doomed to repeat the mistakes that countless others have made."

It was interesting how Jack and Auri were so fast to come down so negatively on Andrija Puharich and/or practical electrolysis..Are you a debunker team?..Maybe this whole operation(CR4) is a debunking process for anything that is truly viable.....Check out this site..........http://waterpoweredcar.com/puharich.html.........There are more..Listen to the Death knell of the Petroleum Industry..There are many other less toxic oils and fuels available in Nature.....Hard to see with agenda blinders on...

No, not a debunker, I am a power and distribution engineer with a keen interest in science and engineering developments (Pesudoscience was, and still is one of them), especially power generation and conversion ones. You can learn a lot from the mistakes of the past (like not making them again in the future).

Try http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu06.asp. Don can explain it more clearly than I can.

Ask yourself this, if it worked back in 1983, why have we never seen even one single example that has been proven to work by a second independent party. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Where is the proof, I have never found it. Where are the working prototypes, where is the independent validation, the media reports, the TV and trade shows, the better world for all of us. Like you say many people have claimed to have done this, if it were true surely someone out there can prove it.

Oh, I started with a very open mind in this field and I actually did research converting my car to run on hydrogen (also using electrolysis). The cost was high (but not enormous) but in the end the science just doesn't back it up. Look into it yourself with an open mind, but dont say that it works without proper scientific proof (a nice looking website and a patent are not acceptable proof). Don't believe everything you read on the web (or on TV for that matter).

hi jonathan ,

I BELEIVE SO MYSELF ... CR.. 4 IS LIKE " A " FISHING .NET

TRAP INFOS& NEW IDEAS ? .... WITH FEW FISHERS-MEN-HERE AND THERE-TO SCARE AWAY ALL THE FISH ??? .

-- THE OLD HUNTER-TECHNICS!!!

hi jonathan,

-- So far, we can conclude that andrija puharich , was on the right track , and not to far off ! in his researches ... to what we have re-engineered.

I hope this little up-date will bring you a merry xmas and to the great master as well !!!

htime ...

I agree that too much potential in DC voltage may lead the effect of electroplating and blocking of ion flow. Perhaps multiple electrodes, large surface area is a much better choise. Working on fuel cell is a great thing. Take care as H2 can catch fire easily so keep CO2 cylinder around. I hate those DCP stuffs as fire fighting equipments.

It will be nice to do some quantitative measurements of water electrolysis.

1. Desired operating voltage and power for the design

2. Efficiency of the process

3. Effect of contaminants on the process and life of electrodes

4. Light assisted or temperature assisted system

Also these are important things to consider

A. Reference to commercial systems, published research work etc

B. Safety requirements data, method and technology

C. New ideas

I think that here is some interesting stuff:

http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

There are diagrams around and several people was enable to reproduce it in the lab.

Why he is not rich and everybody is using his invention?

Because he was murdered.....

J

What, are you CRAZY!!! Don't look at the link, the central world government will trace you back to your computer (those tinfoil hats do NOTHING they will not protect you at all). You don't want to be assassinated also do you, or worse - get the dreaded call from the assimilation squad do you!

Jack - A real world engineer with an actual scientific background, backed by facts and the laws of energy conservation, brought off by the oil companies (they give me their used 40 gallion drums to make forts with)

probably killed by an angry investor he cheated. Some people get very angry at that.

Just another urban myth.

hi shyam ,

very good points , an open mind is worth a lot in this field ,

-- so far, what we have accomplished is about 400 liters of mono-atomic gas per hours and we got the size of our generator

like some others inventors whom are selling them on the internet

today , about 15 " x 10" x 12" overall dimensions ,

IT is not as compact as it should ,... be but it is a start

however , we have a good electronic system , controls , self-adjusting , safety parallels , registrations of data , ect ....

-- the effect of contaminants on the process and life of electrodes is so far almost clean , we use special alloy metals- low voltage - low electrolyte solution added around 2% - we have a good control of the temperature (less then 90 degrees celcius)

-also no foam effect

but ,...we realize we still have a long way to go before even thinking about commercialiation ! if any . thks SHYAM

Getting back to reality, what exactly is your application - The assumption has been for the old tried (and failed) over unity free energy chestnut (which due to those pesky laws of energy conservation, among others, makes it impossible). This has been done to death almost as much as over unity heat pumps! Perhaps this application is for generating hydrogen for small lab or commercial applications (which does have its uses), which seems to be indicated by the above post. If so could you please indicate that, and I will take this REAL application more seriously.

Also, could you tell us a little more about your engineering/scientific background and overall plans (I don't want to have to explain EVERY little point that could cause you problems, like "are you using RMS multimeters", or go into details regarding commercialisation if all you want to do is backyard science experiments, as it wastes both our time).

I love Hydrogen kitchen. I want to get this one for my wife as gift. I want het to be the first Indian to cook her food using Hydrogen. I am sure others will follow. Some late comers always take time to get ready. Think of Hydrogen reaching everywhere. Oil countries will become baggers. No one will invest in their oil shops. Water is great you can drink it and when it comes out, you can easily make Hydrogen power. Entire sea is full of this resource. Think of now going nuclear in the sea and getting Hydrogen power to the shore. I will rather through all Indian reactors in the sea to get Hydrogen. Run Hydrogen cars. Time to cool Hydrogen and make liquid Hydrogen cars. The future is here in Hydrogen. I am ready to dump my million dollar on this.

You are doing right thing now. There will be lots of technology in this area. Particularly, the electrodes, using solar power to assist the electrolysis process and also how to convert easily H2 gas into H2 liquid.

hello shyam ,

thank you for those wise thoughts ... and the kitchen idea...in some what ... you are in the right direction of thinking ! ... THE auto industry is too expensif and too hard to penetrate at this time > ... but we could at this time( today ) power your house with our generator ??? and you will have an hydro-kitchen !!! in some ways .

- ANYWAY ,THIS IS FOOD FOR THOUGHTS FOR THE DAY !

( One think for sure! we are not " jack of all trades and master of nothing " ) ... just good disciples of the hydrogene theory .

Thank you Shyam .

Using water electrolysis to provide hydrogen to power a process is easy, so easy in fact that virtually any backyard "inventor" with a minimal high school science background, a bit of spare time and a little money can do. This process is used for specialised applications such as on-demand Hydrogen production for a small process. That is not the problem. Expecting to produce more power out of the system than what you electrically put in (and in doing so, breaking known laws of energy conservation and chemistry), THAT is the problem.

Efficient hydrogen extraction and storage from plain old water just isn't viable, especially when compared to current existing power production and energy storage methods like coal or natural gas. Remember, these power generation sources power the electrolysis, so unless you are producing more power out of the electrolysis process all you have is another "load" in the system converting one form of energy into another and REDUCING the overall efficiency of the system. So in the end you have used even more power produced by coal to produce the same power from "clean Hydrogen". Ignoring all the additional infrastructure for the electrolysis stage and Hydrogen storage and conversion stage, it would be better for the environment if you just burnt the coal. There is no way around this unless the efficiency of the electrolysis stage exceeds overunity (in which case you dont need the coal power plant once the electrolysis process has started, because it can power itself using some of the Hydrogen converted back into electricity, but this is obviously impossible).

One good explanation attached http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse153.pdf. I have looked and to date I know of no one who has successfully proven this otherwise in an experiment that is repeatable! If you know of a link to some group or research (that is not a hoax, note- if it mentions overunity=free energy then it IS a hoax) please let me know as I am interested!

The stan meyer water powered car was a huge fraud, and just plain bad science.

One hydrogen production process that HAS shown some promise is using photosynthetic microorganisms or anaerobic fermenters. Fuel cells look promising too, but they are still in there infancy and require a lot more development.

I prefer wind power (but even that has its problems).

If you are interested in Hydrogen Electrolysis please check out www.betterburn.com or www.efsid.com.

We have developed and are marketing an on board Hydrogen Generator with amazing results. The benefits include cleaner emissions and increased fuel efficiency.

Wes Jones

The old saying goes "when it rains it pours". Yet another company has come out with a in-car-electrolysis hydrogen generation device, this time for direct injection into a conventional diesel-powered engine. Claims of 250% efficiency over other electrolysis methods (that may be interesting in-itself), along with an increase in diesel fuel economy by as much as 35% and >80% reduction in diesel emissions.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2006/12/vehicles_make_h.html
http://www.hypowerfuel.com/home.html

Obviously if true would have VAST repercussions for the auto industry, diesel power generation industry, etc.

The company doesn't say where the energy comes from to perform the electrolysis however (you would expect the PR people to know, as the electrolyser is the key component after-all) or whether or not the electrolyser power was included in the stated diesel engine efficiency figures. These are basic but CRITICALLY important questions, and until answered give this development yet another smoke-and-mirrors feel to it (well the mirrors part anyway). However a reduction in overall fuel economy (that's diesel+electrolyser) may be acceptable if the diesel is as cleaner burning as they say, as long as it isn't the horribly huge reduction in efficiency that all previous attempts in this field of development have been. After all burning 1 less litre of diesel in your car is pointless if you have to burn 3 litres of diesel to power the electrolyser to get the reduction.

I will have to look out for the New Zealand trials and the independent analysis results.

A good case study for anyone interested in the application of water electrolysis as a method of reducing emissions.

Just another fraud cloaked in research jabber. There are enough fools with money who want to get in on the ground floor of something they do not understand, but is peppered with buzwords and research terminology to keep guys like this going forever. Phone operators call 1000's of people newly retired with more money than what they need to live and suck them dry. All they need are a few and they are in money. Call ift a food chain

The guys in charge all cover their asses with caveats and say more work is needed. So the investors money goes to wages and perks and low cost trials lab work is done in try after try to optimize it.

True (with variations of course), but it does make for an interesting case study for anyone interested in the field and with enough patience to follow the development thru to its conclusion (failure in all cases to date). Has all the useful elements - large company, actual commercial product, unfolding right now, claim of independent verification will be done, PR department (company verification on products claims), possibility to personally ask specific questions and perhaps get answers (before I give you money, what powers the electrolyser then?).

Better than just looking at a website made by a backyard inventor whose incredible invention with fantastic, world-changing claims was squashed years ago when he was assassinated by "the oil industry", and who's only independent verification is from people like Zeke's cousin's uncle who worked for the oil industry for a spell, and people who read the website and told others.

And yes, time is one of their major advantages, as you say, people following will eventually move on and assume that it will all be worked out and come on the market real soon! It never does, does it.

Debunker? Naysayer? Skeptic? World-government controlled drone?, no, I have just seen it repeated time and time again. "Assassination" and "brought-out" by the oil company are the most common reasons of incredible invention failure/disappearance given (and never by the inventor him/herself, because they are never to be found, funnily enough). Its a very dangerous industry to be in if you believe it's true (killed by oil industry to prevent them going out of business and loosing Trillions of dollars) or if you believe it's not (killed or gone into hiding (with whatever professional credibility they had destroyed) by irked investor robbed of savings by the scam). Perhaps something both sides of the debate can agree on.

The internet is full of many schemes. People inject themselves with ozone and silver colloids and buy stuff to make their manhood rocklike every dy. All for nought.

All this Chinese medicine and acupuncture etc, is more of the same.

Then there is naturopathy. People run businesses as naturopaths. Their client give them $$ for nothing a all. Medicines with 30 100:1 dilutions of the active ingredient are touted as safe effectve cures.

Watch and see

Jack..

The Hypower H2 generator works off the vehicles existing electrical system and the same goes for their supplemental H2 injection system already being used on some fleet vehicles...these units and many others like it only draw about 15-20 amps from the vehicles electrical system which the alternator maintains while the vehicle is running (ie:self sustaining)...tis really no different than hooking up some of the aftermarket accessories already available..ie:auxiliary lighting..communications equipment..etc.....

I just don't understand why so many people are so close minded about this technology...the point is...it works and it has been PROVEN...and yes...I am a conspiracy theorist...Hydrogen technology has been squelched over and over throughout the decades because of what it could to the worlds economy..it would stand it on it's head mainly effecting the oil companies and oil rich nations who rely solely on our importing of their oil to sustain their economy because they really have nothing else to offer as far as goods or technology goes...BILLIONS of dollars are at stake and the only thing the fatcats are worried about is lining their own pockets and maintaining their plush lifestyle...they don't give a rats ass about helping the average consumer or the worlds ecology for that matter...it all boils down to MONEY pure and simple...the dollar is merely a symbol for oil and you can't tell me that isn't enough of a catalyst to foster the suppression and/or outright murder of people who have tried to implement this technology and make the world aware that there is a better way to fuel ourselves...lets be realistic here shall we??

But I digress...

No offense but I feel alot of you "scientists" tend to OVER-think some of this stuff...laws of thermodynamics/physics are broken all the time...just by looking at past history you "scientists" of all people should know full well that there are times when certain laws need to be revised and/or completely rewritten when some new groundbreaking and historical technology is discovered and implemented.

Why do you worry about laws. If things are working then they are working with law as well. I fully agree that Hydrogen is a good fuel for future. Once the petro gas is gone, you all will ask for Hydrogen gas.

Dear Sir,

I am incharge of India branch of Chinese company, Wuxi Kingship Import & Export Co. Ltd. - website : www.js-machine.com.

We are interested in promoting our Hydrogen Generators and PEMFC to the Indian market. Please let me know how we can cooperate for mutual benefits.

Regards

T.P. Kapoor

Email : jinshui@vsnl.net

DEAR SHYAM ,

HYDROTIME ,IS HERE AGAIN TO BRING SOME LIGHT ON OUR NEW REACTOR ,

WE ARE FINALLY READY AS PROMESS . A TOTALLY NEW PROTOTYPE IS READY FOR A TEST-DRIVE WITH ALL DATA AS WELL ! .

BUT WE HAVE MUCH MORE TO MARKET WITH OUR NEW COMPACT SYSTEM .

I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT POSSIBLE VENTURE IN INDIA !

BEST REGARDS

HYDROTIME .

Technology is not for talking but for doing and using. My first priority is to see if H2 is good enough for home use. I need to redesign the kitchen for my wife and remove chances of accident. I will first buy H2 cylinder and use it. I always think of the goal and not the start point. It is easier to find a way for a better start point. Now that H2 cylinder will not be cheap is not my worry. My worry is if food can be safely cooked and will taste a bit better without smell of all those Hydrocarbons and oils of dinasaurous. I just want to get rid of all that quickly as I am a vegetarian. I don't even like coal and wood. H2 looks just great. It comes from water. Burn it and drink it. Great.

I think we can put Fusion reactor in the sea and get clean Hydrogen supply to people on land of my type. Others can use whatever else they want from left over fuels and we can allow them to be good source of CO2 for trees. Cars of today can be called mobile CO2 factories and that of tommorrow a clean water supply.

We live in space time and material constraints. Our truth that makes us to decide and move on is based on just those things and can differ as per situations. Some people spend years in the house and some travel far in space vehicles and find place in skylabs. Some are engines of the train and some are last boggy. This will always be in that way and no one can change it. The restlessness is the source of the discoveries.

Sorry to re-awakern this thread, though having ploughed through the "It's impossible as science tells us it's so" and the tiresome "Where's the proof" drivel, I really think that some people need to listen, ingest, and prove or disprove for themselves. Asking for evidence or proof of debatable inventions that threaten to destabilise the world economy, and choosing to believe in reasons for inventors disappearance based upon probable fraud to investors as opposed to attacks from government forces or oil barons (etc...etc...), is really naieve to say the least.

Suffice to say, I HAVE tried ignition by water fuel and plasma spark with some success - an old 1400cc Ford Cortina MkIII. It's a real pig to start alright (still working to improve the HT condenser capacity and source current), but the fact that it runs on NOTHING but water (with a little baking soda or salt - either works) is evidence enough for me. The fuel cell approach is a better bet for existing vehicles as water-powered engines are bound to corrode quickly (hence the old car as the testing ground), though early days yet to establish speed of engine degeneration.

Anyway, here's the website with information on both technologies.

www.waterpoweredcar.com and associated sub-links.

Incidentally, about five years ago I was inspired to try this myself by an engineer working for a major motor company (BMW if I recall correctly), who actually built a water powered car and drove it for fun around the compound whilst seeking interest in their miraculous ground-breaking vehicle. I'll leave the more intelligent amongst us to work that one out.

If you don't believe it then kick off by using a lawnmower engine or something. For pity's sake just prove it to yourself before trying to debunk, in the time-honoured condescending fashion, any notion that things just may be possible about which your current level of understanding may just be flawed.

Who am I? I'm not going to reveal my identity as I would fear the worst should I attempt to stick my head above the parapet and get it shot at from all sides - with no turning back. Call me a charlatan, a fake, dreamer, whatever you wish - I couldn't give a damn, but until you understand and can explain the merest fundamentals such as gravity, magnetic force, light (etc), then please don't profess to know enough to debunk all such ideas until someone should prove it necessary to prove otherwise to you at their own expense.

I looked into it for my car but the math and science just don't add up upon examination. Not by a long shot.

As per previous comments here, in other posts, and on the internet remember - it is not about being able to run a car on nothing but water (which is actually possible if you have a decent enough hydrogen storage system and run the electrolyzer off the electrical grid when the vehicle is sitting in your garage), it is about the hopelessly inefficient energy conversion process.

As for converting water to hydrogen and running a gas engine off that using an engine powered alternator to convert the water to H, well I think that has been explained enough as to why it doesn't work as is claimed on the free energy websites like keelynet.

My advise to anyone who thinks otherwise is rather than just comment/argue/rant/etc here, just go out and build one of the many water electrolysis engines from the numerous designs off the internet, many of which are free. It will give you good first-hand experience on why it isn't a good idea and why you shouldn't believe everything you see on the internet, especially "too good to be true" claims. No one is stopping you. Seriously.

I couldn't give a damn, but until you understand and can explain the merest fundamentals such as gravity, magnetic force, light

Don't forget that the fundamentals of these are actually all known, it is the proof that these fundamentals can be broken to create over unity energy conversions that is absent .

hello jack.

well id thought id put my bid on this as an slightly experienced person in this subject.i may be only 19 but ive done a 3 odd year bid into this subject.and yes ive had problems with this..but heres my experience.

ive currently made a cheap HIGHLY ineffiecent hydrogen generator for my carf in hope to increase something being power of effeiciency.in the end result i got a generaly constant 20% more effiecency in my car..

the unit draws less then 30amp..(it runs through a 30 amp fuse and has a sub on the same curcuit.and yes i know its not an accurate assumption that its 30 amps cause the fuse may blow at 50 amps..but its a start...im a little witty too).

and when i mean the unit is ineffecient i mean it..it ran so hot you can burn your hand if you had it on it for more then half a second(hence the generally constant cause at times i had to turn it off cause of over temp running).so im not sure how its using more energy then it produces.i guess that the waters may be considered like an energy scource much like oil.but you much alter its for before you use it.so my car got down to an average of 7.5L per 100km..before and after ive use the device i get 10L per 100km.bith done over a fair few tanks of fuel.(more then 10 tanks each side)

base line is your problem is you dont want to believe.it was a KNOW fact that you were crazy if you thought you could fly or think that the earth was a sphere.it was believed mathematically impossible to enter space and escape earths gravity.

THIS IS A FACT> no matter what science or religion you follow..we made science...we did not make creation or water to say..and what ever we make we use something that we did not make.and thiers no way to escape that.therefore we do not control its limits.one day we may have time travel if the first person who makes a step in the right direction believes a bit..bottom line is stop thinking of knowing and start trying to belive in everything.yes i agree science should be followed and its pritty right..but thier may be things in this world we still don't know..and its when you put it down as a know that you stop thinking for more.

stop limiting your self to thinking of knowing the world.don't waste another human life like your own by refusing to help your self.ill read this for a few days and see your reply.

<sigh>

Please read my previous threads. Short form as follows.

1) I have numerous engineering qualifications and numerous years of experience in the power field including energy storage and three years in one of Australasia's leading power testing laboratory, bla, bla, bla. One of my pastimes includes R&D in power storage and generation. This means I know a thing or two about how things work in the real world as well as how to make proper measurements and assess and verify results properly and the science behind it.

2) I have personally researched and looked into numerous free energy and perpetual motion devices in an attempt to see if there was anything useful there (be it a process, product or even an idea that could open up a new way of thinking about science). I have also spent considerable time looking into water electrolysers and even assessed converting my car to run on water. Hey if you don't look and just assume you will never know right.

3) All I have found are scams, pseudoscience and hopelessly wrong results from backyard inventors that cannot even use a multimeter properly measure a pulsed DC waveform, to scammers using pretty and technical-looking websites full of pseudoscience and easily dis proven 'facts' to support their miracle snake oil products.

Sorry but I actually looked and the math and the science says no. If you actually perform proper measurements you will find that the water electrolyser uses far more energy than it creates (by its very nature it is a hopelessly inefficient process, especially when stainless steel electrodes are used).

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/trashelc.pdf

Close examination of websites and products that claim overunity millage increases brings to light scams and hopelessly conducted tests producing meaningless results as 'evidence' of a major breakthru.

http://keelynet.com/

In the end this post will not likely change your mind or those of others because some people want to believe in something that can change the world (like running a car on water instead of petrol). I could quote science and laws but that has been said before. If you really want to see what is going on then perform some proper measurements yourself (including the all important control (without electrolyser running) compared to car with electrolyser running), also ask yourself - car powered water electrolysers have been around for decades and there are dozens and dozens of patents, free designs and peddlers of supposed miracle devices out there. Why has the world not embraced the technology. Hell, we are paying far more for petrol down here, if any of them actually worked I would buy one.

It isn't a conspiracy, its just an inefficient use of petrol.

If you are still keen on pursuing your research into water electrolysers, refer to my previous posts on CR4 regarding setting up and performing proper tests to actually accurately assess vehicle millage gains or losses (It is in one of the HAFC threads I think). This should give you a better idea on what is happening and how to perform some meaningful measurements giving you some real-world results.

How you came up with a 20% increased fuel efficiency when you said yourself that the millage decreased (as you found out the fuel powering your electrolyser is being turned into mostly heat). You need to perform some proper tests and measurements, don't believe everything you see on the internet (re" keelynet), and don't try and tell me to believe in something when the only evidence you have is current measurements by fuse blows/doesn't blow. Actually that is quite funny (especially if you are using a pulsed waveform electrolyser).

Have fun but play safe, you don't want to melt the fuel lines and blow the car up.

Hi Jack. I appreciate your attempts to establish a scientific baseline in the arena of true believers. I have been watching with interest two novel approaches that MAY have basis in science, but could also be elaborate scams.

http://www.blacklightpower.com/

Dr. Mills and crew have been in existence for at least 5 years, that I have been watching. They are accumulating patents, and Dr. Mills DOES postulate a theory to explain his observed "lowered" energy state for hydrogen atoms. I continue to watch for marketed products or processes, but nothing yet that I'm aware of.

http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm

I've waded through the explanation of why this is supposed to work but it kind of boggles my mind. I can visualize the concepts, but whether a previously hidden aspect of magnetism is available for exploitation is problematic for my classically trained brain.

Your inputs about these two technologies would be greatly enjoyed by me.

Jim

Blacklight is a scam. See previous posts and threads on "Blacklight"

The Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (with stated 10,000 and 100 Million percent efficiency no less) mentioned in http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm does not fair any better. Scam, dillusion, abysmal test procedures (take your pick). Hell, they are not even that elaborate.

Have a look at the Wikipedia article on Tom Bearden. He has plenty of BS all right.

NOT worth your or anyone else's time. If you want a laugh try watching stand-up comedy.

See previous threads on free energy and over-unity scams and hopelessly wrong test procedures.

It's sad really. People believe what they want to believe, and people will always be there to exploit them. As people become bombarded with more and more information it becomes increasingly difficult for the averagely-educated person to tell the difference between real science and BS that looks like science.

We scientists and engineers do what we can to help educate the public. Its a pity many refuse to listen.

Please explain why the universe, a perpetual motion machine, is running and continues to run. If the universe stops, at some point - then it is not a perpetual motion machine. however, virtually, and practically, the universe is a perpetual motion machine since humans only live 100 years, while the universe virtually goes on forever. Even if the humans were extinct, the universe would still go on.

So please, explain to us why the universe is a perpetual motion machine. Put the universe on trial! Take the universe to court! Put the universe in jail!

The key is tapping into the energy sources already provided here - NOT getting overunity, but simply making use of the energy we have. If water is here and provides energy, the key is not how to get overunity like what so many frauds try. The key is to legitimately tap into the energy that is already here! Since the universe is virtually a perpetual motion machine, it means we can tap into the universe and access this continual feed of energy. It does not mean we will receive over-unity since we live inside the universe itself ! It simply means we need to tap in to the universe.

Tesla discovered this thought in a slightly different way, and provided a slightly different explaination through his Vacuum theories. Think hard. Above is my own explaination not related to Tesla's.

Think about the moving bouncing molecules inside water. Perpetual motion? your glass of water is simply an illusion - it is not a static object. The water is moving inside, and your eyes cannot see it. Water is an electric solution. How to tap into the electric solution and grab ahold of the moving energy that you cannot see with your eyes.. the molecules darting around? The key is not some fraudulent overunity invention, but rather an invention that simply taps into the movement and catches it - while turning the water into ice which the sun can then melt, or a similar situation. i.e. no laws of conservation need to be violated since we already have ENERGY here.. a continual stream that cannot be destroyed (according to our law at least).

Regards, Lars