An interesting observation; In the UN report, reference is made over and over to "women and men" rather than the traditional "men and women" word combination. Could it be the writer was a woman?

Could it be that on a global scale most of the heavy hauling of water and wood, and most of the backbreaking agricultural work is done by women?

Simon

We logged using horses, and a variety of types. My dad started as a hobby, but as time when, these horse was actually like having another employee.

We would start the trail in the wood....some swampy and after about a week, these horses would skid out of the Woods to the landing what a guy....my self or my brother would position the log, unhook itm it and send the horse back unattended. Very few run-a-ways. I am not going to get into.

We first had Belgian Draft Horse 1800-2200 lbs. (sometimes hooked as a team). Working in a woods is hard on the harness, and they could walk through the harness. and if a tug snapped on one side, and you happened to be on the other side, with a tree behind you. Hello Mr. Horse meet Mr. tree. with you in the middle lucky if you didn't get hurt. Broken ribs on my part.

We found that lighter and smaller horses were easier, we were handling half breeds (a Cross between a Belgian and what ever Arabian, Mustang, Grade) and then we went to Haflingers, 600-1200lbs. The main reason, it was easier for my dad to harness as he grew older.

We were hired over skidders, because the damage a skidder does to the woods is far greater. Plus in the swampier grounds. The skidder would not go.

As far as farm work....there are things not mentioned, without a doubt, a horse can be superior. Raking hay. same time...only quieter.

Who has done serious work on horsepowered equipment for the last 70 years?

As far as adapting, New Holland, Now (Ford New Holland) Would retool once a year to manufacture horse drawned equipment, for the Amish and such. Improvements are happen, but not to the scale were people would gasp.

There are other privately done inprovements, but this is on the farm level. And it deals with battery/electric power, LP natural gas and Hydraulics.

phoenix911

I have learned from Obama that so much work can be done by just letting the pony get on with the job. They are quite bright enough to figure out the way that involves least energy, but unlike you guys, I am concentrating on the low powered end of the system, becuase my safety is paramount, which is why I have the instant release system.

I find extracting firewood is really easy, but i haven't got the right trailer configuration yet, as with too low a centre of gravity, the logs bottom on every dip, too high and you shed the load.

But having fun, will be back with some working pics, but also some back in cities.

Simon

becuase my safety is paramount,

That is with all, and one never expects a tug less that a year old to snap. But being sixteen at the time. Was going to school of hard knocks, for it could have look at it as a hobby, my parents were instilling something else in me.

I find extracting firewood is really easy, but i haven't got the right trailer configuration yet, as with too low a centre of gravity, the logs bottom on every dip, too high and you shed the load.

When not logging and collecting firewood......two different techniques, In winter, we had a bobsled., (2) simuliar to this below, but less the box;

But having fun, will be back with some working pics, but also some back in cities.

Fantistic.

Like petrol powered water electrolysis to produce electricity, here's NOT how to do it.

http://fleethorse.com/

Yes a horse on a treadmill inside a car generating power for the cars electric motors. Why has this never been thought of before.

Now I am scared the thought of having my back to a horse in an enclosed area....

The premise of the site is identify the reason this was invented. My money's on too much spare time & too many drugs.

It may be the original "power generation on step(mill)" idea.

Someone succeeded putting the cart before the horse, never say never.

I am rather confused as to how anyone can think that animals area an ideal work saving device.

They can not be shut off and parked for the off seasons.

They require constant up keep and maintenance regardless of work output.

Their output is very low in comparison to any farm machinery or tractor of equal wheight and foot print.

The overall time, money, and effort invested in them as a whole will typically outweigh what small gains in niche areas you get from them.

The reason not much main stream advancement has been done with animal power in 70+ years is obvious. Machines are faster, more reliable, cheaper in overall operation costs, far more predictable, and they have an off switch!

I have no idea how someone can think that having an animal powered transport system for a disabled or handicapped person wold be cost effective or even safe. If the person has that limited of mobility or physical capacity who feeds and takes care of the animal? Someone will have to get paid to do it and that money will buy something mechanical thats far safer and user friendly for a person in that position.

Seriously this whole writeup came off as an ill thought out and poorly understood reference to an impractical and unrealistic way of doing things.

Niche applications yes. Day to day application for the mass population? never.

Animals don't make realistic AE power sources. They have proven that for a century or two now.

Sorry but WTF?

The reason not much main stream advancement has been done with animal power in 70+ years is obvious. Machines are faster, more reliable, cheaper in overall operation costs, far more predictable, and they have an off switch!

You might be missing the point...........lets say, no fuel, because tractors they are by no means capable of being near selfsufficent on a farm.

with horses output drops yes, but output is still positive

No fuel, thats a heck of a mailbox holder you have there, with that $100,000.00 tractor.

I have no idea how someone can think that having an animal powered transport system for a disabled or handicapped person wold be cost effective or even safe.

But there are. Even wheelchair ramps.

Seriously this whole writeup came off as an ill thought out and poorly understood reference to an impractical and unrealistic way of doing things.

This is a forum for people like yourself. Open the cover......

I am not intending to insult anyone but having lived my whole life around both horses and machinery there is a huge difference in application as to what will not only pay for it self but prove profitable and what doesn't.

My heritage and locational history is farming. I am an avid fan of the antique machinery and I regularly attend antiques shows and historical celebration events. They always have displays of how farming was done and has changed over the last 100+ years or so around here. Believe me animal based farming is slow and very inefficient use of pretty much every resource. No one will ever convince me other wise simply because I have seen it done first hand.

As far as fuel what do horses eat and how much land does it take to supply that fuel per horse and how is it collected and harvested? A lot more than your letting onto I can say that right now.

Its well known around here that back in the days of animal based farming the animals need 1/2 of the land a person owned to support them. A common 2000 acre farm here uses about 10 acres of land for the machinery and all farming support systems the land owner needs. With animals around 1000 acres of that land could not produce saleable crops every year.

Animals need daily and continual care and upkeep year round. That costs time and money yet has no gains on the annual income as a whole and diminishes the returns. Farm machinery will sit for years with out a single finger needing to be lifted and zero money spent and typically can be returned back to full working condition in a few hours or less. The idle cost savings greatly outwheigh the restart costs.

If you want to prove to me a draft team is a better use of time, money and effort for farming come right on by. I will happily buy a set of them if you can get ten good draft horses set up and can do the same amount of work and with equal versatility as I can on one 50 year old $500 farm tractor in one good day. And I will even give you a head start with the set up and put away times as well. But you have to do it all by yourself since thats how I have to do it with a tractor.

Heres what they need to do.

1; Pickup and haul their months worth of fuel in one shot. (hay and water)

2; Mow 1 acre of weeds down around the pastures.

3; Drill ten post holes 10 inches in dia and 3 feet deep in hard packed soil.

4; Plow and disk 3 acres of land in the remainder of the day. And the place they have to plow and disk is 5 miles away from everything else and they have to be back in the barn and unhooked after wards.

I am not trying to be rude or a jerk but thats why horse teams are not used for farming practices any more. Tractors and machinery allow one person to do many things and in incredibly fast comparison times while being spread out over large areas.

In some very small applications a horse team is still a reasonable thing to use. But the world didn't become modernized on the backs of work animals. The countries who didn't mechanize are still using what your proposing to a large degree and that in many ways why they are poor and underdeveloped.

On the larger farming scale here I have worked up 300 acres of land in one day by myself with one fair sized tractor and one implement.

How many animal teams, people, and support systems would you need to do that? And assuming everyone and everything cost standard fair market value what would the daily cost be? I bet its many times over what I and the tractor cost for the same work having been done. Plus the initial cost for all of the horses, gear, equipment and related expenses will be far more than what that tractor and plow costs new.

I am just trying to show the counter arguments to why horse and other animal teams became obsolete over a century ago in developed countries.

I do appreciate your reasons but sometimes the old ways are not better for todays world.

But I do respect your thoughts and am interested in how you honestly came to the conclusions you have.

Real numbers, and provable information always wins peoples respect and interests, or at least mine anyway. Made up claims, bold faced lies, and far fetched 'what if' scenarios don't.

As far as fuel what do horses eat and how much land does it take to supply that fuel per horse and how is it collected and harvested? A lot more than your letting onto I can say that right now.

And my point is.....still very near selfsuffievent.

A common 2000 acre farm here uses about 10 acres of land for the machinery and all farming support systems the land owner needs. With animals around 1000 acres of that land could not produce saleable crops every year.

Stop thinking 2000 acres, there may come an adjustment

Farm machinery will sit for years with out a single finger needing to be lifted and zero money spent and typically can be returned back to full working condition in a few hours or less. The idle cost savings greatly outwheigh the restart costs.

sit for years with out lifting a finger, with in a few hours to back to full working order? no.........seals dry out, mice are in the manifold......maybe crap in the cylinder, fuel and oil chemistry broke down. oil ate away at the seals, I am not even going to go into the hydra-shift issues. You must hire to have your service work done, otherwise you would have known that.

And 50 years from now,

No live for today....and screw tommorow.

Did you look at the other thread?

Saddlechariot starts posting at #20, He is very emotionally invested in his various projects & a pro pony perspective...

There are plenty of people in the world who use animal power as their best option, mostly due to economic constraints. I agree with your thumbnail analysis of the overall efficiency of animal power.

I think these projects are for entertainment & recreation.

I would further conjecture, that most animal power users in the developing world, are using modern materials [rubber tyres, ball bearings...] for their carts, plows, ect...

I hope we can help Saddlechariot think about what he is trying to do in a logical way.

I liked the analysis you did about the quality of horses on the Mechanics of a horse kick thread

I am just trying to show the counter arguments to why horse and other animal teams became obsolete over a century ago in developed countries.

I do appreciate your reasons but sometimes the old ways are not better for todays world.

But I do respect your thoughts and am interested in how you honestly came to the conclusions you have.

Real numbers, and provable information always wins peoples respect and interests, or at least mine anyway. Made up claims, bold faced lies, and far fetched 'what if' scenarios don't.

I do what I say. List my BOLD FACED LIES and I will answer them.

This pattern of using tractors on large farms and animal-powered small farms is common worldwide. Even in highly developed regions, such as the European Union, animal power remains important in areas where there are farms of small size (including Spain, Portugal and Greece). Many farms in the United States are run profitably by Amish farmers using only animal power.

This is the UN speaking.

So you are saying The countries who didn't mechanize are still using what your proposing to a large degree and that in many ways why they are poor and underdeveloped.

Spain Portugal and Greece are poor and undeveloped. The Americas were colonised by Spain and Porttugal importing the philosophy of Greece, but now these countries are just ignorant hicks.

You are a fan of antique machinery, I love antique cars but i wouldn't drive one because I want to live. Have no improvements occurred that could transfer to animal propelled systems. I have introduced safety to driving animals and consistently get savaged for doing so.

Referring to me as a liar again without stating which of my statements are LIES will mean I have to ask the administrators what site policy is on this sort of abuse. I thought this was an engineering site that looked at facts. Your personal attacks are not in the best traditions of engineering.

Tell me which LIES you object to, which made up claims, and I apologise for the far fetched scenario of thinking you might look at the engineering questions.

And read the FAO UN report. before you continue to attack me. Then at least you can attack the UN as congenital liars. They might be able to afford to defend themselves. I can't.

If you wish to condemn the poor to continuing grinding poverty, that is up to you, but I don't have to respect you for it. I am suggesting I have one tiny part of the solution to real world problems involving peak oil, and global warming, if these are the lies you refer to, we all have problems.

Simon

I am rather confused as to how anyone can think that animals area an ideal work saving device.

The last 5,000 years of human history a mistake. Why train horses, oxen, donkeys, mules camelids, bufalo, goats and elephants when all you have to do is invent the internal combustion engine.

Seriously this whole writeup came off as an ill thought out and poorly understood reference to an impractical and unrealistic way of doing things.

Well that tells most of the world what a bunch of ignorant worthless people they are. Did you read the UN FAO report on Draught Animals. Do people in poor countries not count, or are they just ignorant peasants in your opinion?

My comments at the top are part of another thread and I find your assessment offensive and insulting. Try looking at what I have said on the subject before you decide to attack. I drive horse drawn vehicles from a wheelchair across tough terrain at speed on my own, so I do know what I am talking about. You don't.

I cannot think of any polite reply to your attack which is why I am forced to be rude. I would far prefer to be able to discuss the subject.

Simon

I suppose you're turned around and looking at this from the land of machines, spin again until you're straightened out in the land of animals without machines.

And they fertilize the land as well.

For comparison sake here is a wheelchair pony cart of what I would assume is traditional design.

This gives me a better idea of the safety improvements simon is trying to implement.

The 3 wheel design looks like it may flip, after being disengaged from the pony.

The longer the wheel base the more stable the rig. of course any design is a compromise between agility & stability.

What about the 3rd wheel in the front, steerable & spring to center, tied to the harness?

Leading link on the other 2. Leading link is cool, the tendancy to rise under braking makes for a plush ride. Not so good on the BMW, making it push in the corners under braking

The idea that it may flip after being disengaged appears unfounded, ie I haven't managed it yet. The shafts would limit any back over front flip and the next generation has a roll cage. It isn't a problem on any other system as you and the vehicle are tied to the animal until it stops panicking, becomes exhausted or dies.

The essence of the system is to release before everything goes pear shaped. I have yet to flip it driving in the wheelchair, and driven kneeling it is amazing.

The front wheel steering assembly is complicated by needing a vertical steering head or the shafts twist on the horse. Also you hit jacknife problems while with fully castering rear it behaves like a two wheeler in manoevering but a four wheeler when released from the animall. I run 22xx11x8 tyres on 3.75 rims which gives a narrower width but very curved sidewalls and improved suspension just from the wheels and tyres.

Cross country from sand dunes to river beds, and anything urban, it is mindboggling. Maximum torque at low speed, incredible traction, voice activated controls, you name it. The only failing is the speed wobble when the rear wheel is unweighted.

Simon

OK

I can see what your mean about the shafts, preventing any flip overs.

There a 2 things to adjust on your fully castered rear wheel.

trail is the distance between the axle of the wheel & the pivot shaft.

Caster angle is the angle of the pivot shaft.

You've identified a problem when the weight shifts forward & unloads [lessens the weight on] the rear wheel, producing a wobble.

The slightest deviation from 90 degrees side to side caster angle will give you wobble. front to back angle may be adjusted.

You could install a steering damper similar to a motorcycle. It could be as simple as introducing friction to the pivot shaft. Could you post a better picture of this assembly?