Why aren't more vehicles being converted to natural gas?

Raise the price of gasoline to $4 US, and keep it there for a couple years, and you'll see it happen.

£1.05GBP per litre here. So what?

1.80 MYR per liter here. Pretty cheap.

Sorry. I wasn't clear that I was answering only for a US perspective. The economics here prevent any large investment in natural gas as an alternative to gasoline right now.

LPG is available in the UK at selected filling stations, and a small percentage of the road vehicle fleet has been delivered or converted to use it. Possibly those two facts are inter-related....

I'm not buying the tank size argument, size the tank for the vehicle type or intended use. A commuter smaller than touring type.

Hey tcmtech, weren't just talking about this a couple days ago? And getting this most bang for your buck. You had and still have Ga's on the subject. My Question now is, "Our we going to reinvent the "Ford Pinto"", that was one hot item back then. For some reason they just went up in smoke with a Bang! Kind of like leaving your a$$ exposed. Yes we all know that LPG and CGN tanks are manufactured to different specs, but were else our you to mount a fuel cell, other than on the roof. I'm almost sure that some fool will manage to flip their vehicle and go up in smoke too And with that I'll say, Have a Good Day.

dj

For CNG aren't we talking about tanks very similar to tanks for welding gases or scuba diving? A full conversion could have the gas tank removed. Dual fuel could have the smaller welding gas sized tanks stashed under the back seat, sides of the trunk, between the frame rails on trucks... The connection points would seem to be the weak points

Hey I bought a Pinto at the height of the scare for $50 & put 30000 miles on it with only the usual maintenance, sold it 4 yrs later for $100, it was a decent work car, kind of light for the snow though, had to keep sand bags in the back...

& how many of us had chevy pickups from the 60's with the equally as dangerous gas tank behind the seat inside the cab. A side impact could pop the filler loose & splash gas everywhere, there were some deaths.

The problem I see is that most people seem to have far more interest in what kind of useless crap they get in side the vehicle than what it costs to own and drive or how efficient it is on fuel or how reliable it is.

I honestly know people who have traded in a great vehicle for a crappy one just because the crappy one had dual power ports standard in the dash and extra junk holes elsewhere around the interior. Spending an extra $2000 a year more on fuel and maintenance was worth having the ability to charge two cell phones at once without using a Y adapter and having room for another buckets worth of useless crap stuffed in their vehicle.

As far as mounting tanks if you don't have gasoline the high pressure tanks can be mounted right under the vehicle just like fuel tanks are now. No loss in space. The tanks themselves don't have to be as large as whats typically used in aftermarket propane or CNG systems. Being they get mounted in the box of a pickup it just makes sense to use the whole width of the box and thusly that equates to a large volume tank. I can run my pickup off of a 30 gallon cylinder mounted under it just the same as if its mounted in the box. I would just have to fill it more often. Just same as if I was running on gasoline. I would have done it that way if I had a tank that would have fit.

Same with the LNG tanks. If they are made to the same basic capacity as whats on the vehicle now there is no real big size difference. They are more cylindrical than box shaped but slight modifications made to the body during manufacturing will easily accommodate the different shapes without changing the overall vehicle. Plus being pressure fed they can be made out of several smaller cylinders and spread out for more capacity as well. A car would not need one central tank to work. it could easily have a row of several small diameter but long tank units running the whole length of the underside or placed in other areas that dont serve a purpose. Eight 5 gallon cylinders instead of one 20 gallon cylinder. double the capacity but no wasted additional space.

The laws of supply and demand will see the price rise as more and more people are going for that.

It is has not been added to the infrastructure.

It does call for technical training of the fuelers.

(especially for CNG.)

Conversations are expensive.

Road taxes on it push it to near the same price as gasoline, depending on what day it is.

(and that is per gallon.)

That's the short answer.

More may follow.

Garthh and AH can probably give more insight. I'm a little wore out thinking about it, if not dangerous.

The company I work for is building a huge plant in the Middle East to convert natural gas to Diesel. Really nice clean low sulpher diesel.

At current prices the economics work to do the energy intensive conversion from gas to liquids especially in fields that have no good way to get the gas out to market. Shipping diesel is not so hard.

We use CNG for taxis here in Malaysia, and CNG is used for buses in Manila, but it not attractive for regular cars. It would probably be more cost effective to use natural gas to fire electric power plants and then use electric cars.

You really need to look at the price of CNG two winters ago.

We paid $4.50 a gallon delivered.

Yep those evil oil companies... I wonder if maybe India might be subsidizing CNG prices maybe?? No couldn't be... Must be that those evil oil companys are willing to let India have cheap fuel and they make it up by stealing money from the US. Yeah that must be it.

Yes. In WWII Standard Oil was selling gas to both Germany and the United States during the war. Roosevelt couldn't seize the company and shut it down or it would cut off fuel to the United States. The People running Standard Oil weren't charged with treason because they would have cut off fuel to the United States. Standard Oil is above the law.

They are not patriotic and they care only for their own profits.

Any new research that could lead into cutting them out of their profits would be lobbied against.

CNG or LPG at 4.50 a gallon delivered? If CNG how many pounds at what pressure?

Still got to find a fuel station. I drive by the the CNG station on Jalan Ampang and there is always a que of taxis 20 or 30 deep...

Compressing natural methane from biomass had been problematic-regarding infusion of silicon from degrading plastics-that can harm an engine

Work-around use a landfill gas engine designed by major manufacturers for the specific purpose.

Just for the sake of clarity may I point out that LPG, CNG, and LNG are three different things...

I understand that they are all forms of natural gas or natural gas processing, but they are different. Perhaps I am mis-reading, but to me it seems several people in this thread are using these terms interchangably.

Great post Tazman! Good answer from me.

CNG, In New Zealand in the late 70's early 80's the National Goverment Introduced CNG to the public of the North Island, where it is piped over the whole island.

Great idea, but then the Labor Govt took power and they did not like the idea, so they took away subsides and the CNG idea lost, because people were updating vehicles (Japan Imports) and with no subsidy they did not bother to convert.

This was the one of the best things that happened to me (personaly), but not for New Zealand. I had the job of removing the majority of the CNG stations and rebuilding the control panels and dispencers and then installing them in Pakistan, this kept me and my team busy for about 5 years.

Personaly I think CNG is a great fuel to use, it is cleaner than other fossel fuels and if the vehicle is tuned correctly for natural gas it can be reasonably efficent. The vessel that holds the CNG is heavy, consider it as always carring an extra passanger or 2.

But the clean burnig is what it is about, In 1999 I was in Pakistan and India just passed law that all public transport busses must be on CNG within the next 5 years (my dates may not be entirly correct). To reduce polution.

I have met people in Pakistan that have made an absoute fortune operating CNG Stations.

I still am thinking about using CNG to power our small fleet of vehicles, yes the dissadvantage is if you dont have a cascade storage it will take time to fill a vehicle.

There is still a few companies in NZ that use CNG.

Bio Gas is another thing CH4, this can be very abrasive to the internal combustion engine, before is is used it must be washed, to remove the corrosive elements.

I am not sure on this but I think that a lot of oil rigs burn of the Natural Gas, because it is not econimic for them to ship it.

What a wasteful society we have become, burning natural resorce for profit.

There are a lot of fork trucks and other industrial vehicles running around on propane. I was at an auction where they had 3 or 4 tractors that were factory built to use propane as fuel. Propane burns hotter than natural gas, so you get more power per gallon. The problem lies in the availability of filling stations and the lack of range of the vehicles. Until those obstacles are overcome, and the bureaucratic leeches get their level of control and revenue, this will remain an industrial only energy source.

The company I work for uses medium duty trucks. Current fleet size is approximately 6,000 trucks. They all operate on LPG. Taking into consideration the economy of scale, it's very economical for us.

I'd also like to echo the point that we need to be clear about the types of gas. LPG and CNG are not the same.

Your company is quite large. I would think that you are paying the best wholesale price for your LPG. You may also be avoiding retail taxes. Many rural homes use propane, but I think that they pay about double the natural gas price. I guess it all comes down to wheeling and dealing. Farmer coops might be in a position to sell LPG for vehicles, but they might not have enough demand. I would think that household natural gas would be the best option for those who have it in their homes. There are American made home compressors for natural gas cars. Utah seems to be the hottest spot for natural gas vehicles. Maybe it is the Mormon economic ethic. Plus they have lots of natural gas handy.

I was doing business down in the southern Caribbean and I believe it was Trinidad where I got into a Taxi that had a Gasoline/LNG conversion added to it. While talking to him I was informed that all he had to do to switch from gas to LNG was to flip a switch on his dashboard. He showed me the tank in the trunk (looked like a scuba tank) and he went to a gas station to refuel. The gas station had an enclosure off to the side where he got out, pulled out a hose and connected it to his car. So he refilled the LNG tank just like we would our gas tanks! You might want to check with the government or some of the large fuel companies in Trinidad about how the infrastructure is set up along with some additional details on how the system works in their country. They have been using it long enough to possibly shed some light on the fuel system. I know that compared to the USA, Trinidad is a very small country but, the basics to setting up the fuel system should be the same. They may have a government agency that works with the transportation, shipping and distribution of LNG. It will require some additional research. Hope this helps.

Anyone who has ever opertated a LNG fork truck, zamboni, pickup truct, etc can tell you that when they get out of tune, the emissions are very noxious as ammonia is produced instead of just co2 and h20. Also, the oil in the crankcase needs to be changed more frequently because it gets burned faster. An LNG vehicle is also often gutless in the mid to upper RPM band, making things like passing, towing, and hill climbing at a reasonable speed difficult and potentially dangerous.

We haven't found any of those to be the case with our fleet. We recently moved to a sythetic oil and now only have to change oil annually. As to the performance factors, no issues. Looking back on my earlier post, I mis-spoke. Our fleet is actually powered by Propane. Perhaps that's a factor in not experiencing the performance degradation.

To be honest, we actually own a patent on converting a gasoline engine to propane.

Is your company licensing it's patent? Why is liquid propane superior to CNG? Does it really produce more power? Is it cleaner?

Lp has a higher energy density, natural gas is diluted for home use.

methane usually needs to have the hydrogen sulfide removed to make it compatible with the pipelines. I saw a presentation by a regional company that installs manure digesters & splits the energy with the dairy. The company in some cases would process & sell their part to the pipeline.

A few years ago here in california OPD's became law. propane tanks certainly weren't filled as full as before OPD.

Romwaon,

The storabilty problem of natural gas and the transport economy burdens involved, drives the option of localized use of natural gas, for industries and domestic.

Whereas liquefied petroleum gas can be flexibly produced and transported with ease compared to distant transport aspects of natural gas lines.

I think this could be a potential reason for choice on LPG.

A quick search for "natural gas pipeline map" shows that at least 75% of the USA has pipeline availability nearby. In fact the pipelines are so dense in some areas that they form blotches of color. Is there a reason why LPG is more expensive than LNG? Other than because they can charge more? I hear they recently, arbitrarily, got together and decreased the amount of LPG in a BBQ tank. Large companies, with their own liquid gas facilities, could save a lot of money by following the example of our contributor's company that runs thousands of vehicles.

In Brazil I have noticed they are very well adapted to alternative fuels... I would venture to say that more than half the cars are converted to Natural Gas, and most all the gas stations also offer Gasoline, Diesel, Natural Gas and Alcohol.

They pop the hood and there you find an adapter to fill the Natural Gas with what appears to be some sort of a quick connection??? There is a bright yellow tank tucked away in the trunk or behind the rear seat...

I did a quick search on " Brazillian multi fuel vehicles." Turns out that they have a million on the road. GM makes one called the Astra. It is from their Opel division. Which they are trying to sell, I think. Just goes to show you how much they care about us being energy independent. The special Astra will burn up to E-85 ethanol blends, or CNG.

LPG is commonly available around Australia.

If cheap gas compressors were available, CNG from the household natural gas supply would be a reasonable compromise between the convenience of "liquid" fuel and the plug in electric.

In both cases, you can recharge/refill at home overnight.

The CNG should burn much cleaner than petrol or diesel with less overall pollution.

If you go right back to the power station, CNG could wind up less "environmentally damaging" than electric.

Like any accounting, it depends on how you juggle the figures as to what results you get.

There is no line loss with natural gas. That is a larger factor if you are far from the power plants supplying your electricity, but have natural gas at home. There is some expense with pumping natural gas to its destination, but I don't know how that compares to line loss. We just had a pumping station go up about 25 miles from my house. It is pretty impressive. I believe that it delivers gas from Colorado. I am in central Illinois. We also have a coal gasification plant starting up in Decatur. It will pump CO2 into the earth. We have a lot of high sulfur bituminous coal in Illinois. Hope they do a good job of cleaning it up.

Here in Panama a couple of years ago, the Government provided a subsidy for converting taxi cabs to natural gas or dual fuel use. The tanks fit nicely in the trunk. There were never any reports in the general media of accidents with this fuel. There were some reports of damage to the engines, but, in those cases with which I am familiar, the "damage" was most likely a result of old equipment poorly maintained, rather than the result of fuel change per se. Interest waned as the cost of gasoline dropped. Interest will most likely rise again with the price of gasoline.

I used to work with a company that did CNG vehicle conversions, and put up refuelling stations for a country that belonged to Bush's "axis of evil"

the things that kept the conversion project in that country going were the resultant effect of government-subsidized (incentives) conversion cost, and the rationing of fuel. the second measure created an artificial shortage, forcing the issue on consumers to go with the conversion.

in other countries, I believe the necessity to have a car *always* and who cannot live without a car for one day, has been one of the factors that discourages users from converting.

safety is another issue that users have to contend with. this is aggravated by unscrupulous dealers who buy tanks from dubious sources and install them in cars, whose owners have no idea how to tell a tank that meets standards from one that does not. the horror stories of exploding tanks that we read of, usually involve tanks that are sub-standard and even were tanks meant for the scrapyard!

it is not true trunk space is consumed by the tank. for passenger cars, the tank need not take up half the trunk's space (smaller tanks can give more trunk room, but will require more frequent refuelling).

some more discussions on users' issues with CNG can be seen here.

Lotsa good answers, but don't quite get to the crux of the matter. Natural (etc) gas when used, in IC engines for relatively low-speed (think common carrier/transport...or "yard" vehicle) applications (typically with much stop-&-go and idling), has its chief benefit (not as an economical fuel but rather) in reduced emission of air pollutants.

Most vehicle operators (of the commuter, shopper, entertainment, etc persuasions), while they might like the idea of producing less pollution (or having to invest less in pollution reduction technology in their vehicles), few would be willing to sacrifice a considerable amount of the performance that obtains in gasoline powered vehicles. They are not willing to ultimately pay more for the fuel (in terms of reduction of energy content...and more fuel required due to lesser distance-per-fuel-qty). Add to that cost penalty, the additional penalty (as inferred elsewhere) of finding dispensers to which to purchase the "gas."

Also, your question was, why aren't vehicles being "converted"? I don't know about others, but (unless gas became the only choice) discarding purchased value in a vehicle by converting hardly seems a wise use of one's transportation capital. Heck, I'd be afraid I might void my warranty!

I haven't personally operated one, but I have ridden in many of these vehicles (cars) in Brazil both in town and on long road trips between cities. I quite honestly did not detect a lack of performance in any way. The fueling is worked out well and there really are not any short falls I can see in the system.

Maybe better if it did slow those guys down a little though, they drive like someone is chasing them...

It appears to me that the switch is being held back by a joint effort between the oil companies and the stuck in there ways consumers who relate the use of gas to the performance of a forklift.

The warranty issue might be a concern. I don't know if your other arguments are valid or not. I understand some dragsters have run well on natural gas. Others say it performs just fine. A lot of people don't care to speed, with the high price of fuel today. I think a large portion of drivers would be interested, if the vehicles were available. It is just like anything else. It is a bad idea until it catches on. Check out the reviews on the Honda Civic GX.

Tim, Ron:

Perhaps economy of performance might have been a better way to express it. Obviously, with sufficient essential modifications (think injection, supercharging...) a dragster or personal vehicle can attain brute performance on parity with that of gasoline powered Otto engines—but the question is: at what price? When we speak of general (as opposed to niche markets: such as municipal mass transit), we have to ask the same question as the person considering transition to flex fuel (say, E85). For the same brute performance characteristics how many are going to be willing to purchase (or did I mean convert) when the cleaner burning fuel will result in a reduction in MPG from, say, 18-20 to 11+/- (in the case of E85 at present prices); or from same to 10 or less (in the case of propane); as so on. The fact that gasoline, with relatively high energy content proves not only a comparatively cost efficient fuel, but also a highly adaptable fuel for many different applications...this, not any conspiracy by crude producers and fuel refiners, would readily explain the slowness of markets at large to abandon the better, more all-purpose fuel for transportation. So it will be factors apart from fuel economy that must drive any mass appeal of (say) natural gas or LPG; factors such as relative supply and cost, government intervention in markets, and, yes...eventually, widespread public demand by those willing to invest capital for a fuel that is more expensive to consume (and, for a while at least, logistically more expensive to distribute to the domestic fleet.).

• blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1016258_roush-f-150-pickups-go-propane Well obvoiusly I need some link pasting practice. But if interested look up the Roush F-150 pickups that are converted to LP gas with NO loss in performance

Ive done a number of dual fuel conversions and they work great! The tuning and other 'what if' scenarios are no better or worse than that of any other fuel as well. A badly out of tune gasoline powered vehicle puts out far worse pollutants than a badly tuned propane or natural gas powered one.

As far a s power is concerned different fuels have different operating ideals. Its no different that if you put diesel in your gasoline powered vehicle and wondered why it runs like crap. Well thats because the engine was not set up to run that type of fuel. The same goes for natural gas ans propane. They appear to be less efficient simply because that engine design that was intended for gasoline is not ideally the right one for the others. Once a engine is properly built for natural gas or propane it will then run horribly on gasoline.

Natural gas and propane have a few advantages when an engine has been properly built that work against gasoline. One is the higher compression ratios greatly increase fuel efficiency and the different burn rates allow for much more aggressive cam profiles and larger intake and exhaust system modifications as well. All the while keeping with cleaner emission's overall and still having smooth driveability even with the with much higher power out of the same base engine.

Thanks. Good answer. Does that mean that the dual fuel gasoline, gasoline ethanol blend with propane or CNG is not a good way to go? That is what a lot of people in Brazil are doing. We have an abundant supply of natural gas and the option of coal gasification, so the dual fuel option might only be needed in a few areas. Propane is, I think, available everywhere anyway. I would like to see the big propane and natural gas companies help get the ball rolling. They could train and certify entrepreneurs who do conversions.

There is a mid point where the engine can be set up for dual fuel operation with fair results. Its not all the way to its maximum potential for natural gas and propane but its still within the limits where a slight detune will let gasoline still work.

I built a Ford 460 engine a number of years ago that was to be primarily a propane engine. I put the bigger cam and high flow intake and exhaust systems on it but I didn't go all the way to the recommended 11:1 compression ratio that propane would work best at with that cam and other parts I used.

I went with an approximate 9.5:1 ratio give or take. Thats roughly the midpoint between the original 8:1 ratio it had for gasoline and the ideal 11:1 ratio for propane. this made the propane efficiency much higher but not as good as it could have been though. One problem with that mid point ratio was that on gasoline it would knock and ping horribly under load unless the ignition timing was dialed back about 8 -10 degrees from where the propane was set for.

I believe this is what most engines that run dual fuel systems do. However if something like a E85 fuel was used the compression ratio could be kept at or near the ideal propane and natural gas ratios and only a slight ignition detune would be needed if at all.

Thats basically how setting up an engine the correct way for dual fuel is done. Just try and find a workable happy medium between whats best for the two fuels that are to be used and preferably lean toward the most often used fuel during the build up and design. In my case the compression ratio is the only thing not ideally suited for propane use. But a good head milling can bring that into spec at any time I want and for not much money.

Given we have E85 locally now if I ever have a reason to rebuild or to build another engine I will likely move the compression ratios up another point more. Gasoline will not likely run at any load even with a detune but availability of the other fuels makes it no longer an issue.

And by the way 400+ Hp and 500+ ft/lb of torque in a stock 1985 F -150 pickup was absolutely a thrill to drive! Plus getting mid teens on propane was super especially when gasoline was $4.00 a gallon and propane was only $1.00 - $1.25! Thats a cost per mile equivalent of around 45 - 60 MPG on gasoline!!

Lets see a Prius pull 10000+ pounds at interstate speeds!

That is extremely impressive. I wish Detroit had gone this way awhile back. They still can though. Another question is: What is needed to switch from propane to natural gas and vice versa? Would both work on your truck? I pay twenty dollars to exchange a BBQ tank. I probably pay double to make it worth the market's trouble. I have natural gas at home, but propane is all over Decatur, IL. The state government of Texas is actively supporting propane and natural gas vehicles and filling stations. That should have an impact throughout neighboring states also.

The present high pressure tanks for CNG require an intermediate regulator to bring down the high pressure in the tanks to under the typically 350 PSI input limit of the vaporizer. After that its just simple metering screw or orifice thats adjusted for which ever fuel your using and possibly a slight ignition tweak of a few degrees at most.

The few used CNG systems I have reset for propane just needed to be leaned out as far as the mix ratios were concerned.

There is the other advantage that the same vapor carburetor and vaporizer system are also hydrogen compatible as well. Just change the CNG tank to a hydrogen tank and do the related mix ratio adjustments and ignition changes and away you go. All of the high pressure regulators, fuel lines, vaporizers and vapor carburetors I have seen already have nitrile rubber gaskets and hydrogen compatible materials used throughout them so there should be no long term compatibility issues as far as I know.

However ideally hydrogen does take an even higher engine compression ratio and ignition changes again to get its full power and efficiency. At that level possibly stronger pistons and connecting rods may be in order on some engines. What I have experimented with so far is just old lawn and garden engines and around 14 -16:1 compression seems to work well but the small engines aluminum connecting rods and aluminum heads don't seem to take it at high loads for very long. More experimenting is needed before I will try it on a vehicle engine that I cant justifiably wreck in the name of science.

I would like to hear someones comments who does have real application knowledge and practical hands on experience with using hydrogen in a properly modified engine though. I don't have much real valid information as to what is the ideal compression ratio and ignition curves needed to get its best output power.

Good news: Hyundai and Kia are going to build propane/electric hybrids. One will be the popular Hyundai Elantra mid size car. They will initially sell it only in South Korea.