Math versus Maths

It is a UKism that seems to be spreading. Canadians seem to use it as well, as do Indians.

Perhaps it is coming into usage in the US as Indians migrate there in greater numbers.

That's what I was thinking, but I've seen a surprising number of Americans using the term now. I was starting to wonder if I alone had been using the term math all this time.

As another poster said, some would say "I'm studying maths", but I have always said "I'm studying math".

I think what I find fascinating is the speed with which it's being adopted by seemingly everyone. Not that I have a problem with that, I just don't think I could ever bring myself to say "maths". Old habits die hard.

I see, so you consider math anything that you covered in grade school. Algebra and higher you consider "written text language". I see. So any abstraction is prohibited from your definition of math?

Do you realize that the level of math your suggesting was established by 800 AD(1200 years ago)?

Abstraction in math is necessary to solve classes of problems. Without abstraction we'd have to prove each and every example, which would be difficult at there are infinite examples.

I agree with you on the Big Corporation, Government, and Banking math. They take abstraction too far.

Actually, 1,209 years ago, Roger. Do the Math! (Sorry - I couldn't resist.....)

At least you didn't tell me to "do the maths"!

Sorry TCMTECH you've got your definitions mixed up.

Equations that use only numbers eg 2+3 = 5 are called SUMS, although "sums" can be quite complicated they are only used by accountants, mechanics and preschoolers.

Just like being color blind or tone deaf, it is apparently possible for people to live happy and fulfilling lives even when they don't know math(s).

Note: Even when they include multiplication and divisions they are still called "sums" by your betters.

(See my post #11.)
Sums is called 'arithmetic' in posh circles, but I agree it still ain't Maths!

Good stuff!

The answer's Q isn't it?

(and yes some moron is probably trying to solve this last example I just used right now)

"Math" is the abbreviation of "mathematics". That is the term I use and hear others use in Alberta, a province of Canada. I believe "maths" is a British expression and is probably based on the assumption that "mathematics" is a plural noun. You would not say "I am going to study mathematic". I don't really have a problem with either expression. There is no doubt as to the meaning, so why should this be a concern?

I'm not concerned, I'm just trying to figure out where the term came from. It seems ubiquitous suddenly, but that just may be because my exposure to internationals has increased the last 5 years.

Jesus H Christ Roger!

You're smart as hell.

What do you want us to tell you?

Dinky Jackson said in his 9th Grade Algebra Class, "Teacher, how many Maths do I need to know to get into MIT?"

Jokes and slang come out of prisons and elementary school.

tee hee...GA.
What irritated me is people who think 'Arithmetic' is 'Maths' <slaps furry head with paw>
You get some numpty who can't add up says
'oooh I never was any good at maths'
To which I reply
'Yes that second order differential calculus always flummoxed me too'
Del

'Yes that second order differential calculus always flummoxed me too'

Yes, but some 'oooh I never was any good at maths' type people
second order addition (additions with figure more than 2) is also flummoxing. They need calculator!

I usually answer the confusion between arithmetic and mathematics by introducing the non-numeric mathematic of set theory. For arithmetic and set theory are each a mathematic sub-set field of the greater set of mathematics.

At least I now understand why my British former boss would look blindly at me when I would ask what other "Maths" he was using.

I guess one could include ordinal structure as a separate mathematic to make all sub-sets as plural mathematics. But that approaches silly now, doesn't it. (There I go, dragging in Calculus now with a limit description. When will it end? Oops is that logic? AHHHH make it stop! )

Please define the etymology of your word "internationals". I'm sure it may be an Americanism now migrating to India.

Seriously, "maths" is plural in the same way "calculations" is plural and means basically the same thing.

I hope everyone understands I not saying Math or Maths is correct. Personally I feel that both are correct. I'm just interested in why I'm hearing it all of a sudden all the time. Curiosity motivated this post, that's all.

It is all because everybody thought Dinky was cool.

Is it because the Atlantic Ocean is getting narrower culturally?

There was a time when the use of the German language was being considered as a standard for use in those former colonies that became the USA. In which case, the word in use might have become mathematik instead.

Greetings PWSlack

There was a time when the use of the German language was being considered as a standard for use in those former colonies

I was trying to get a word in and was thinking German about it. When we went to maths class we went to "Mathe" pronounced 'mutte'. This has the same meaning as "matte" which is translated mat, the thing one lies down on when relaxing.

Our maths teacher (Herr Kroeger, with a limp from the war) insisted we say "zum mathematic Unterricht" and not "zu Matte", as we would say. Out of respect we made sure that we always did the right thing (mathematically speaking) by him and we still went to 'maths', just not to hurt his feeling we kept the lingo straight as a die while he was around.

Bottom line: he was a better basket ball player than teacher other wise I would not have the problems with higher mathematics and could read and play it like others can. Good reason to have the 'old guard' on side, just for the correctness and to ask them for help concerning a mathematical problem and not an issue with maths, in other words home work.

My friend, John Becker, is a guy that can, off the top of his head, explain and write any formula you ask of him. he is retired now but bright as a spark. The good thing is I don't have to be able to read the formula but get him to tell me if what I am doing is correct or not. Much like a good buddy accountant. If I would ask him to give me a hand with some "maths" he would not even react, as he would, if being approached by a student. He was an ace while he was teaching mathematics to some spoiled brats in some Sydney elite boys school.

If I need help he would ask me to be more specific, at once, so to cut out irrelevance and or mis-understandings, from the beginning, starting with the correct language used.

Speculation in maths is rife, never mind how far you want to go or maybe even because one can go that far, never mind the interpretation of the spoken slang.

Splitting hairs is maths. Changing language (the evolution of) is just part of the extended formulae and their interpretations.

The use of maths in music, engineering, or any other discipline are very, very complex systems. More satisfaction has come from the arts (free interpretation) but only the people in the know will appreciate it.

Conclusion:

Abbreviation has never hurt no one. Knowing were it came from has helped some, including most of my peers.

Just throwing a Florin in, Ky.

Ky, "Mathe" is pronounced the same way as the English word "matter"......so is the Mat!!

My take is as Mathematics is plural, the shortened form should be also.....eg. Maths!!

When we went to maths class we went to "Mathe" pronounced 'mutte'

It reminds me of when I read Goethe's Faust in college for the first time. I was quite impressed with myself and was about to go on a long winded take on the book when I noticed that everyone was talking about some guy named GERTA. I was thoroughly confused. A similar incident happened with Descartes (I pronounced the Ss).

I have too many stories like that.

The name is Goethe (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe), it is pronounced more like "Goater" in English (if there was such a word!)

My apologies but your remembrances of German are seriously flawed with regard to pronunciation at least........you should always reference to "High German" and not some local dialect.

That is like saying most Americans do not speak like they come from Mississippi for example.......and Mississippi American is still a dialect/accent only.....nor is it correct except for them.....

But perhaps you were in Switzerland, they haven't got a clue either how to speak German properly either and talk a very badly accented version that is called "Swiss German (Schweizerdeutsch, Schwyzerdütsch, Schwiizertüütsch, Schwizertitsch) is any of the Alemannic dialects spoken in Switzerland and in some Alpine communities in Northern Italy."

You can read more at:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_German

I hope this helps you further.

If you wish, I could post a sound byte of my wife speaking both words properly for you, if you give me your "real" email address via the CR4 email..... By the way, she is German!!!

Fascinating.....and I appreciate it. Goater. That makes more sense to me believe it or not.

I think the use of these words are related to "Buzz" words. Sort of like "proactive", when that word first came on the scene as being profoundly world-wise and business like, I could tell you how much longer I had to stay awake until this guys pitch was over by the amount of times he used it.

Or something like when the all knowing decided that the correct usage of "data" was a sure indication of ones intelligence and obvious social status.

I am glad you brought this one up, I hadn't heard it yet, now maybe I can be ahead of the pack for once.

_{(Please do the Rabbit's eras thing with your fingers whilst reading the following)}
I'm not sure I follow your 'mind set', but I don't want to be 'pragmatic' about it...maybe the whole 'paradigm' needs a buffing up?

Del

Taken in the proper context is that a whole new slant on things? I think I am losing it.

otha

I think I am losing it.

The most spoken words in mathematics, relating to accuracy. In photography it would be "If I only had my other camera with me". Starting with the first grader up to the people in the know. And when they have it, it goes a bit like with the HHO guys. But they are still at it after all those centuries. I am not talking about the basics but the stuff that makes good entertainment when getting abstract about matters. It really is a fine art, if I can trust what I have been told. Not a finite science but aren't we all?

slant on things?

Deviantly, Ky.

All these years, I thought the proper term was "mathematics". Oh, well, this is not the first time I have been mistaken...

Look there are verifications of math, why do you think in school there is Phisics, Algerbra, Geo-Trig,General Math ect. ect. ect. It is like everything else there are specialties in every subject , it is how you break it down and process it. No one is an expert in math, each one is an expert in that specific area,

DCJ

I think the closes answer to this problem goes to tcmteck. He gets a GA from me.

I think it has something to do with the American liking for all things British - including the Beatles! Down Under it was "maths" but I note a trend towards "math", which I rather favour.

Kenneth

Math_ematics

Maybe it started when they introduced the "new math". If you are talking about the old math and the new math, you'd be talking about two maths, not "talking about two math".

-- SwaJime

So refreshing to see a WHAT IS, without confusion with WHAT I LIKE.

Good Answer, however I must protest your statement that Mathematics is just plural. According to Websters Dictionary:

• Main Entry: math·e·mat·ics
• Pronunciation: \ˌmath-ˈma-tiks, ˌma-thə-\
• Function: noun plural but usually singular in construction
  
  Which of course means that Math is as valid an abreviation as Maths. USA! USA! USA! Sorry. Hating all things American has become such a fad the even the most liberal of us are a touch over-patriotic now.

Good Answer!

USA! USA! USA!

Sorry, there I go again. Really, either way is fine, you can say maths if you want, or you can use the Baseball Loving, Apple Pie Eating, Defender of the Free World abbreviation "math".

USA! USA! USA!

Then, why do you need a mathematic model rather than a "mathematics model" to explain something ?.

Yahlasit

You don't, you need a mathematical model to explain something.

if mathematics is the plural, and there is no singular mathematic, then you can abbreviate to math and that represents the only version, which is plural. There is no reason to add the plural s to an abbreviation unless there is also a singular form from which you need to make the distinction.

In otherwords if you have

Mathematic=Math

then you need

Mathematics=Maths

else

Mathematics=Math

otherwise it is just a waste. It is likely that as we become less concerned with the additional letters in abreviations it won't matter, but at one time a century ago or earlier the letter count was important.

mathematics is a collective singular ... like borg, feed, seed, and etc...
gymnastics would work the same way ...
you can have a single mathematic event, just as you can have a single gymnastic event
whether i'm studying gym or whether i'm studying math makes no difference

My Friend,

What exactly you want to learn about math.

Here is the definition from Amarican Heritage Dictionary.

maths ( m²ths) n. used with a sing. verb Chiefly British 1. Mathematics.

Do you meam exactly " MATHEMATICS" ? if so, which field you want to learn

1. Algebra

2. Trigonometry

3. Analytic Geometry

4. Solid Mesuration

5. Differential or Integral Calculus

6. Differential Equation

7. Complex Agebra and Hyporbolic Function

8. Applied mathematics for electrical./electonic circuits analysis.(Hybrid circuits, HV power transmission lines system, etc)

In Greek language we, also, use plural for the name of this science. I, also, use the term "maths" in English. I think that it has to do with the wide range of this science. It deals with several methods and different areas like algebra, trigonometry, integral calculus, limits, sets e.t.c. So, as an entirety of all these, I think that it's more appropriate to use plural.

Hello Roger Pink,

Do not be "bewildered"!

Remember not all members are native Americans. These 'ex colonial' people are more likely to use the phrase "Maths".

Take care....

Interesting how this bewilders you, I have a similar issue with Americanisms that is spreading through the civilised English (or colonial) regions. Too much television and Sesame Street I guess.

IE:

Colour,

analogue,

catalogue,

rationalise,

civilisation,

_{the letter Z being pronouced zee while it is really zed}

....

_rambling

Good Answer.

One thing though. You Wrote:"These days Americans turn blue at the thought of going metric and losing all those wonderful traditional units with their rich histories (despite the very good reasons for doing so)"

Sometimes the outside worlds impressions of the US is funny. Most of US citizens are pretty much in favor of converting to the metric system. The reason why it hasn't happened yet is because it will be expensive to implement and quite frankly, we're lazy. Also, as you noted, we don't import much, so the metric thing rarely is an issue (except when NASA is building space probes), so we'd basically be doing it for mostly because its the right thing to do, not for much immediate savings. I don't think I need to tell you us Americans don't quite jump at doing things for long term gain.

Didn't a Mars lander fail because of mixing up metric and imperial at NASA, some years ago???

You Guys should make a decision and stick to it!!! Wallowing about between the two is non productive and wastes Mars Landers......

We aren't wallowing, we're waffling. We waffled 100 years on slavery. Then another 100 on civil rights. We waffled on WWI and WWII. We had a president (whom I liked) who once raised issue as to the meaning of "is".

Even our war of independence from Britain involved a ton of waffling.

It's our proud tradition of waffling that has made this country great. The last 8 years we turned our back on waffling. We elected a "decider" as president. Deciders don't waffle. Two wars and two economic crisis later we've returned to our waffling roots.

So if we take another 60 years before we finally commit to the metric system, I say so be it. Afterall, it's not like Europe is using metric time, right? That high ground isn't so high as you'd like to believe.

USA! USA! USA!

God I'm feeling patriotic today.

Andy,

A Canadian Airline did that in Canada back in 83 too.

The Gimli Glider.

Jon

Good one, I remember it!!

You're missing something there. The metric system has (after a fashion) long since been adopted stateside. The reason why it has'nt come into use univerally (stateside) is merely that there is much to much money (profit) to be lost (gained) by converting (not converting). (Think how much (say) the Depot would have to charge if consumer choices were made easler by offering only metric hardware.

Sales of tools really isn't the issue with the implementation of the metric system. The metric system is used universally in the sciences, and has been for a century. The issue is when the technical skilled sector have to interface with unskilled labor for work products. Most americans with only high school degrees have never had to be semi knowledgeable of the metric system. As construction, agriculture and manufacturing comprise a huge sector of the work force, the people who have not been trained in the metric system find it hard to implement, because in part they are knowledgeable through experience with imperial measurements. The NCEES tried to impleemnt it in stages until the entirety of all engineering exams would be metric only, however, that has been halted becasue of the bad feed back in the construction and related industries about use of the metric system. CalTrans tried to implement it fully on all projects and is now going backwards, because of threats that it is an unfair limitation of work qualifications, as it is not industry standard. Also, there is a huge amount of resistance from a number of engineering sectors, geotechnical and water resources engineering being two, where half of their value is in understanding all the variety of conversions in the imperial system, metric system conversions can be readily calculated in your head, and these older engineers lose a great deal of value (it is sort of like the idea of a senior engineer over 50 not needing knowledge of autocad, but a associate engineer of 40 needing to be proficient, except you can not implement metric system usage by age). Many elderly employees and unskilled labor forces perceive the metric system as a source of unfair bias against their, as they conceive, more important skills that could limit their ability to work and earn if it were a requirement.

Hi RCE,

Some very good points made in your post my friend.

My own personal opinion is that when a Rule or Law is made in Congress, that Law or Rule should apply to all of the United States.................. Problem is, they are all NOT United! So you get some states implementing Law and Rules, and other 'redneck' states not implementing them or ignoring them.

As you say a lot of what is happening now between the use and the need to use Metric, and the blatant refusal to use it in some sectors, is so backward looking, and to be honest unintelligent.

I am not saying it would be universally accepted, but it should be used to further ease the USA into the 21st Century and to balance the need to use Metric around the world.

Anyone can use a piece of string or length of 2' x 1' (~50mm x 25mm, nominal) or anything else to measure a short size, say less than ten feet (3050mm. Also 305 cm Centimetres). Remember:

mm = 1000/th Metre - (Mil' = 1000 parts)

cm = 100/th Metre - (Cent = 100 parts)

1 foot ~300mm or 30 cms (Centimetres)

When making something completely from 'scratch' there is no conversion necessary as all the units, like screws, plate steel or anything else are or would be metric. The only place Metrication is crucial is at the initial steel or metel/wood/fibreboard, plastic sheeting factories. Once it has been made in a metric size there is no need to worry about any conversion at all.

The awkward part is for those working in building extention, and any refurbing type of work, where the bricks, wood, and and liner or fibreboard will be metric. Working in these industries mean you soon get to to conversions in your head anyway, you just work from a known point. These jobs are like working to spec' on each and every part. I always use mm (Millimetre) as a measure where the length is less than about ten Metres. After that I use Metres. That way, when ordering made to fit doors or windows in mm, there is not confusion in sizes. After all the difference in size between 1 mm and 1 cm is a factor of ten.

When using a metric system, do not try and convert from the 'old' Imperial system. Accept Metrication and work with it and it is so much easier to use than the Imperial measures, as long as you use metric calculations only, the metric system is just a case of adding a zero .................... There is not any trying to figure how many ⅚ equals 50 mm, or 5 cm, (which are both same length but written in different ways.

It is just like percentages. Work to a hundred. ‰. After 100 add a zero for a thousand, etc.

Sectors that need not be bothered or I should say the people in that sector should not need to use Metric are people assembling things, and the Farming industry to name two. The Farmer needs to know but the farm hands do not need to know Metric and or Metric conversion. The the conversion is easy when you put a little thought to it.

As with any change there is several ways to convert a Metric figure to an Imperial figure in your head...................

A few things to make it easier are: 1 Mile is 1.6 Km, or Kilometres. For the weather the Centigrade Temperature measures are another case in point. Instead of 212 being boiling point. It is 100................ To grasp this just remember that each single point rise in temp' is equal to 1.8.

So from freezing 32°F to a cool day at 50°F = 0°C to 10°C. Another way is to know that 10 = 18 or visa versa between Celsius and Fahrenheit.

I have tried to write this as a help to all those who are against Metrication or the implimentation of it across the States.............. ALL the States.

I do not mean to insult any sector or any person, OK?

Take care and please go for Metrication.

Hi RCE,

Some good points made here! Well done.

GA to you Sir.

Take care

Original question from Roger: "I hope everyone understands I not saying Math or Maths is correct. Personally I feel that both are correct. I'm just interested in why I'm hearing it all of a sudden all the time. Curiosity motivated this post, that's all."

In my household I have three young adults who have discovered BBC programming on the satellite dish. One of their favorite shows is Top Gear

As widely used on the BBC show, my kids will intentionally append the S onto maths and torques in conversation purely for shock value. Considering the typical teenage shock method was dropping f-bombs this indeed is a refreshing improvement.

I want to thank all of you for your contributions in this thread. I really learned a lot about the terms Math and Maths. Fun conversation. Thanks.

"Of corpse, it's just the calculabe of the poundage and spend it here, wouldn't you say?" with apologies to the late Stanley Unwin.

Hello PWS,

Never really thought of it like that?

Take care

When I went to school, I learned math. Now I guess I'll have to go back to school and learn maths.

Don't worry, it's Maths and Math is the same thing, except instead of periods, they use commas for decimals.

In the UK they still use periods, in Germany the comma.....

What about the poor semicolon, though?

Semicolon is just a glorified comma, we frown upon such extravagances around here.

We use "maths" here at NASA a lot for our spacecraft. But I'm personally more comfortable with "weighths"

My wife and I went to school in the mid 60's and we had the British system in Zimbabwe ( then Rhodesia) we knew it as maths.

I do have a variation though ,my kids in South Africa ( 1990) also did MATHS but they learnt to use the decimal "COMMA" not the point.

whilst learning this the rest of us used the . and the , as a seperator R12,000.00.

Maybe one day I will understand this stupidity.

Have fun.

Regards from Leo Ted and wife. in Natal South Africa.

I'll accept Maths as being correct when someone can show me the singular noun mathematic that mathematics(which is singular) is supposedly the plural form of.

Are math(mathematics) based on a logical set of principles?

or

Is math(mathematics) based on a logical set of principles?

Just because a word ends in s does not indicate that is is a plural form. Cross, crass, less, angry, rude, and more are all adjectives (as is mathematic) end in 's' or 'not s' yet aren't plural or singular. Bliss, fungus, thesis and focus are all nouns (as is mathematics) yet none are plural. Bliss doesn't have a plural form, fungi, theses and foci are the plural forms of the other three.

Gymnastics is a singular noun ending is 's', but I wouldn't say that I was going to a gyms competition, but rather a gym competition.

Who gives a F---

Hi ronseto, I am with you ron, what people call it matters not in the slightest. It is that it is taught correctly. There is far too many semantics going here when there is nothing anyone can do and no reason to try to alter the way Math, or Maths is said.

What a waste of time.

Take care

At this point in the thread we need a small injection of mildly vulgar jocularity......

two partners are interviewing for a new secretary for their small company.

The sales partner asks all the relevant expected questions, age, qualifications, experience, etc. The engineer partner stays silent until his partner asks if he has any questions.

Yes, he replies, "What is 1+1?

Applicant (indignantly) "I'm not answering a silly question like that!

The interview finishes with the usual pleasantries and a promise to contact the applicant with the results.

The same takes place with the other applicants with the exception that the second applicant answers the last question simply as "two" while the third applicant answers "two, eleven and I could come up with some other possibilities if you want".

The partners then take a lunch and discuss the applicants. The salesman asks "why ask such a simple question, they will obviously know the answer?"

Engineer "What is interesting is the way they answer. The first applicant was quite conceited, the second very down to earth, and the third was an imaginative type.

OK, says the salesman , "so which one do we employ?

Engineer (incredulous) "its obvious, the one with the low cut blouse and the short skirt!"

Maths is important in all endeavors!

Regards

Chas

Hello capblanc,

That naught story is definitely what was needed for sure. I like it!

Take care,

En la escuela yo iba a clase de matematica y resolvia problemas con las matematicas.

Maths or Math ends up in the same thoughts. If you are in Europe think about the Maths, or if you are in U.S.A. use the term Math as you like. No wonder why Europians used "Comma" instead of "period" to identify digits number,

Thus,

a). 100.005 -"period "as standard used in U.S.

b). 100,005 - "comma as standard used in Europe

See how the U.S. and Europe differs in standardization

If Europian will manage the central computer system of NASA and will give the American astronaut the coordinates according to " comma" standard , i'm afraid that the space craft suppose to land in the moon will be landed to the stars.

By the way the people that live in Europe are "Europeans", not what you wrote, or did you mean people from some other country that I have never heard of?

It really does not matter whether there is an "s" at the end of Math or not!!

But unless for example NASA standardizes on ONE system (can that be so "effing" difficult???), then yes, Mars Landers will fail to land and intended "Moon walkers" may become "Starship troopers".......

The USA and or NASA just needs to decide and stick with one, nothing more, nothing less.......

I personally grew up using the Imperial system in the UK, with Pounds, Shillings and Pence for example (A Harvard "Math" professor I knew years ago, needed my help to pay his restaurant bill, because he could not work it out! Really true!!!)

The good point about the old system for me was that learning in non decimal Imperial, was that learning all the various counting systems used in computers were a doddle for me. I could add up, multiply and divide etc. in Hex, Octal or Binary in my head. (Nothing unusual for Computer Engineers of the 60's, 70's and early 80's, I hasten to add, the ones that couldn't were the strange ones.......nowadays they all have scientific calculators!!!)

I guess what are needed are Standards, the Europeans have theirs and stick to them, I work only in Metric nowadays......the USA should pick and stay with theirs....I have no idea (or interest) in saying one is better than the other, I am not knowledgeable to say whether that could be true....

I do find Metric far simpler(especially when talking with people that have only had it for many, many years), but it has cost me my maths flexibility to a degree I feel.......but thats not important for me at my age.....

My take on all of this is: If you (not personal) have an ounce of brain in your head, you will learn whatever system confronts you and not try to defeat it. So you know imperial, metric,Si, etc. learn them all as needed. The file cabinet is nowhere close to full. There's plenty of room to store more knowledge.

Hi ronseto,

Ref your post # 85. Absolutely agree! After all the west does not use any Chinese measure that I know of. We use what we know and need. It makes no sense for a Butcher to have to learn pipe specs? Unless he does engineering as a 'side line'?

Take care.

I tend to agree, if needed I can still work in Imperial in all forms of weights and measures. There is simply no point for me living here. Even in the UK, metric is the standard, though many have and still resist it. Some shopkeepers were fined heavily for selling in Imperial, some still took old money for a long time.....I do not remember the fine detail anymore exactly, but going metric took quite a time.

Rulers and tape measures sold in the UK today, still have both markings on them......

I am personally not in agreement in always doing things the "easy way", as it stifles the brain....an example (that may not be completely obvious to any other than myself, sorry!) is that smaller countries where it would be too expensive to synchronize voices in the language onto imported firms, invariably the people speak English very well, often with almost no detectable accent.

For example, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Belgium....they hear the original language and can read the subtitles for confirmation and help....

Going off topic a bit:- Both my daughters learnt their language in the school, not from me. The reason is that very often, children who learn two (or more. I know of two families who used 3 languages from birth!) languages from birth, can speak them all brilliantly, but tend to mix up the equivalents of "he, she, it, the, your and and" when writing.

They will never tell you that, but it means that where an exam is more than 50% written for a language, they invariably fail the exam, in the written part only, but therefore also fail the whole exam...

I know personally of around 30 children so brought up in Germany, none have passed exams in any of the languages they learnt at birth.

I am told by third parties of children of their acquaintance/family that master this, but when questioned, they do not know any exam results!!!

I have NEVER actually met a single person, who has achieved good exam results after being brought up multi lingual from Birth!!

I am sure that there are some who do achieve it, on the law of averages alone!! Its just that I have never met them, other than my own two children, who only spoke German till 9 years old, then learnt English in the school PROPERLY.....who have passed exams with top grades in both languages....

I still say that German is one of the most difficult European languages to learn later, so my two learnt that from birth and we left English completely alone....any "A******E" can learn English, I did!!

I am proud of them, and for myself as I pushed that through in spite of extremely strong criticism from both side of the family and many friends....it has worked out well...(but has nothing to do with the topic so I am marking myself off topic.

Acceptance of intelligent change can never be off topic. All this was very much related to the original post. GA from me, Ky.

Sorry, I only had one vote, but I did try.

You are most kind.

This can be said of teaching music as well and nobody seems to mind that there is no "H" in the English version of the discipline. I just changed over night and no worries what so ever. Splitting hairs is a discipline for mechanics, measuring it for mathematicians performing it for the ones that can handle change at a convenient rate. Maths? The least of my problems. It's the Jazz of things and being able to interpret and still be functional or coherent in what one does. If others understand, even better, Ky.