Login | Register

Previous in Forum: Low Pressure on Exhaust or Backside of Turbine?   Next in Forum: Underground Methane in Los Angeles
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







13 comments
Power-User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 191
Good Answers: 9

Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/11/2009 10:56 AM

Hello All,

This is only my second time addressing this forum folks after having been a clinging wallflower for a couple of years.

Well, hopefully someone here will be able to answer a question that I have concerned with the proper selection of insulation materials for use in one of my "little" energy projects that I have going on around the house. Presently, I am building a DIY Solar Thermal System incorporating glass encapsulated tube collector technology. I am running into problems (even w/ Googling) trying to find the most correct insulating material to use in my project which is inexpensive and easy to install, yet able to withstand the high temperatures created in heat bulb located at the tops of the collector tubes where they're connected to the copper pipe manifold. I'm also looking to wrap the copper supply and return piping (possibly located inside PVC carrier pipes???) with the same insulation material. I'm trying to utilize salvaged materials here as much as possible and keep them out of the landfill.....trying to be a responsible Earthling!!!***LOL*** As I understand it from my research, these salvaged collector tubes (former NASA evaluation testbed) are each capable of producing at least 350 degrees Farhenheit maximum temperatures at the heat bulb/manifold juncture.

So far, I've identified "Rock Wool" as a potential insulation material, but I don't know what it is, how much prolonged heat it can withstand, and where I can obtain it. Does anyone have any information in regard to this material, or does anyone have any suggestions on what other types of insulation material I could or should use? I want to minimize thermal heat loss as much as possible, especially during our cold winters here in upstate New York. List of perspective material suppliers too???

I'm just a lowly Civil Engineer, and not a mechanical Engineer or a Rocket Scientist, so please take it easy on me guys and gals!!! ***LOL*** TIA, and have a great weekend guys!!!

===DaMoosie

PS: This is a mini-posting for Del-the-Cat. I came across a forum posting of yours last evening, dated around Sept., 2008 (?), concerning what material to use inside the heat pipe/bulb of your encapsulated collector tubes used in your solar hot water system. May I suggest that you try liquid MEEK, amongst other liquids. You'll need only a tiny amount present inside your sealed heat pipe. You can buy the stuff by the pint, quart or gallon at your local hardware store. Fairly inexpensive stuff, but watch yourself when soldering the ends of your heat pipe and heat bulb!!! If you should have a questions, feel free to contact me, and I'll send you a good URL link regarding the construction of heat pipes. ***CHESHIRE MOOSIE GRINZZZ***

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Send to a friend Digg this Add to del.icio.us
Pathfinder Tags: ENCAPSULATED SOLAR THERMAL COLLECTOR TUBES insulation solar Solar Thermal
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
2
Power-User
Safety - Hazmat - Environmental, Safety & Health Manager Hobbies - Musician - Theremin (That about says it all...)

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 289
Good Answers: 19
#1

Re: LOOKING FOR PROPER INSULATION TO USE ON SOLAR THERMAL MANIFOLD

09/11/2009 12:04 PM

Moosie,

You can find info on Rock wool (from the North American Insulation Manufacturer's Association)- http://www.naima.org/pages/resources/faq/faq_mineral.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------

You can find useful info on various insulation materials at http://www.matweb.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition, a couple of other insulation materials come to mind:

  • Calcium Silicate (Cal-Sil) blocks;
  • Vermiculite (either loose, or in slab/brick form.)
  • Refractory ceramics/RCF

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can find additional information on these, and other insulation materials, including potential vendors, if you search GlobalSpec...

(http://www.globalspec.com/)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or, (being politically incorrect?), you could travel about 350 miles NNE, to a town in Quebec, with a name you have heard before, but probably didn't know it was the name of a place:

("Welcome to Asbestos ...good stay with us"...)

================================================================

Just my $0.02...

Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 191
Good Answers: 9
#2
In reply to #1

Re: LOOKING FOR PROPER INSULATION TO USE ON SOLAR THERMAL MANIFOLD

09/11/2009 3:08 PM

Thanks Jman! The links and information you provided were excellant.

Question for you: Do you know if the Rock Wool is available in blanket form? Also, how would you cut this stuff to sizes needed?

TIA!!!

====Da Moosie

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
2
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3360
Good Answers: 82
#3

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/11/2009 4:24 PM

It comes in blanket rolls which you can cut with scissors or razor knife. Make sure you use your wife's best sewing scissors since it'll ruin your regular shop scissors. Wear a long sleeve shirt and gloves - you'll itch like crazy from cutting it. Some of it is held together initially with potato starch. When you heat it, it smells like burnt french fries. I relined a furnace once next to the door to the accounting department and they almost lynched me.

__________________
"If you aren't gonna shovel coal, keep your hands off the train whistle!" - Jr. Zirk
Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 191
Good Answers: 9
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/11/2009 4:59 PM

Thanks TVP45 for the info! Glad to know that I can at least cut the stuff with a utility knife or my wife's finest sewing scissors! Hmmm, on second thought I had better not use them or otherwise she'll boil me in oil and I'll end up looking like and smelling like french fries!!!

Now, I only have to find a place where I can buy the blankets since the local Lowes and Home Depot don't seem to carry it.

Next on my hit list is finding some kind of isolation material to place between the copper hold down clips located along copper manifold pipes and attached to the underlying structural steel framework so as to minimize thermal losses there. Something like a ceramic washer or wedge or thereabouts. I've got to be able to drill pilot holes through it for the self-tapping screws without having to procur special drill bits. I had considered some plastics, but I don't think they'd hold up for long or will melt due to the 350 degree F temps inside the manifold. Does anyone have any ideas or have come across such a dilemma before?

TIA!!!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3360
Good Answers: 82
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/11/2009 6:25 PM

This isn't the cheapest and soesn't offer the best selection, but it's quickly available in small quantities. Rulon will easily go up past 350F. Check the same catalogue.

__________________
"If you aren't gonna shovel coal, keep your hands off the train whistle!" - Jr. Zirk
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 5517
Good Answers: 53
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/12/2009 1:00 AM

Rockwool is used extensively in hydroponics and nursery facilities also as acoustic batting.

__________________
"In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists."Eric Hoffer"
Power-User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bangalore, India
Posts: 276
Good Answers: 13
#7

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/12/2009 1:10 AM

One option is phenol formaldehyde foam.

http://www.epfa.org.uk/properties.htm#Environment

Bioramani

__________________
bioramani
Commentator

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Working in Oman
Posts: 92
Good Answers: 1
#8

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/12/2009 2:37 AM

Rock wool is available in various thicknesses in slab form and roll form. K value to be checked for different applications. Thermo Cole and HDPU are other few insulation materials available in the market for insulation purposes.

Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 77
Good Answers: 2
#9

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/12/2009 9:54 AM

Greetings.

Sorting through the cobwebs if I remember correctly when I installed a propane parlor stove and a propane in line on demand water heater in my home that I was told that rock wool doesn't burn until 1,800 degress F and then it doesn't add to the fire. I got the rock wool in 6 inch batts 4 feet long and stuffed the walls where the piping went through the wall. Not everybody carries rock wool. I found a large insulation contractor that had it in a warehouse on his farm.

When the Lord allowed me to build this house I wish I had known about rock wool house insulation because I would have insulated the whole house with it.

I am told that fiberglass house insulation will burn at 900 degrees F and it will contribute to the fire. I suppose that is why at a certain point the firemen will pull away from a fire and then shortly you hear a load boom like an explosion when all that fiberglass insulation in the attic catches on fire and starts burning. This is just guess on my part but they seem to know something like at what temperature the fire is burning.

The US NAVY used to use loose rock wool to pack their N2O2 plants on Aircraft Carriers like the USS Constellation and USS Kitty Hawk back in the 1960s.

Mice and squirrels don't seem to like it. I have several rolls of fiberglass and a number of batts of rock wool stored in my barn and the mice build nests with the fiberglass and leave the exposed rock wool batts alone.

Ah I ramble on. Hope this helps.

Have a great day.

Oly

Associate

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Clover, SC / Richmond, VA
Posts: 26
#10

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/12/2009 9:58 AM

Check out Nansulate

Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 191
Good Answers: 9
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/12/2009 11:52 AM

Many thanks to all that have helped me out finding a solution to my problem!

Between using the Rock Wool and Nansulate, I believe I've found the answers that I was looking for!

Have a great weekend everyone!!!!

===Mark

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Guest
#12

Re: Best Insultation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/13/2009 6:32 AM

i agree with mrswamy and olympia...

rockwool is a good choice and usually not hard to find.

another useful commonly available insulator that is high temperature stable is Perlite.....that white hard stuff in potting soil mix (not the fertalizer). it is available on its own without the rest of the potting soil, almost everywhere garden supplies are sold. it is hard, relatively light-weight and offers very good insulation. it is sold as relatively small peices...larger than sesame seeds, and smaller than butter beans. so you would need to hold it together for this application, perhaps a fiberglass or even screen mesh pillow stitched toether could work.

hope this is useful info

Benbenben

Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member for some time now, see my profile.

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 126
Good Answers: 1
#13

Re: Best Insulation for Solar Thermal Manifold

09/14/2009 8:03 AM

Moosie

A new insulation material becoming available on the DIY market in the Uk is a by product of the recyclable industry. Recycled shredded plastic water bottle material. This currently sells at a slight premium over encapsulated fibreglass with the benefit of easier handling- no irritation to arms, hands, body parts genrally.

I have not tried to find the mechanical and thermal prpoerties of this but as it is now generally available at DIY stores in the UK, that should not be a problem?

Mechanical properties are likely to be variable due to its source.

Sleepy

13 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

bioramani (1), bwire (1), CaptMoosie (3), engineermanmayer (1), Guest (1), mrswamy (1), OlympiaWA (1), Sleepy (1), The JMAN (1), TVP45 (2)

Previous in Forum: Low Pressure on Exhaust or Backside of Turbine?   Next in Forum: Underground Methane in Los Angeles
You might be interested in: Desktop Personal Computers, Industrial Computers, Handheld and Portable Computers