Electrolysis of Water

Ohhh no!!

HHO!

It crap in your water.... Iron, Calcium, Lyme etc... etc... use distilled water.

Color depends on which Impurities are present.

The bubbles are Hydrogen2/Oxygen

Most likely much of the dissolved solids are also coming from your parts... (Anode/Cathode reaction) Use only high quality 316SS to avoid dissolving your parts into the water.

But really... Don't waste your time on HHO.. its a scam, and does not work from a scientific viewpoint. (might work from a marketing viewpoint, if your a CON)

G.A

You have given an exclusive coverage of the issue in a scientific manner.

The scum formed of metal and oxygen complex always tend to reach the upper crust of water surface.

One way to counter is the addition of poly electrolyte solution, gently mix in a flash mixer and use of a clarifier to enhance settling of the precipitate[ possibly anionic poly]]

The heavy metal and mineral colours formed- green / rust colour in case of ferrous ions, blue in case of copper ions will get into the poly flock complex by chelation and settle down leaving clear colourless water.

This is an important improvisation to be made in case of electrolytic water treatment processes.

This can be verified by a simple jar test to decide for final implementation.

s.udhayamarthandan

You have given an exclusive coverage of the issue in a scientific manner.

I have never heard any thing more unscientific. Which part was the science part? Please explain. Just using words (anecdotal evidence) does not make something scientific, Ky.

Ky

Those who post options should be having a relevant exposure. As you are stating I am into electrolysis water treatment for coagulation, water softening and had faced the colour problem from electrodes using Aluminium, Zinc and even carbon. Based on the experience the post by RVZ717 have a sure concurrence and a worthy suggestion. Now a days steel based electrodes are being used to tackle the colour scum problem. We all share our experience for the benefit of OP. My final suggestion calls for a jar test confirmation also, which the op can give a feed back.

You have all your freedom to post your views and can even politely put your counter views.

A single problem can have thousand solutions, only criteria is its workability. CR4 expects a healthy sharing of views and not any controversies.

s.udhayamarthandan

If science is only about healthy sharing of views it would be a sad state of affairs. Only controversy has led to a clear view of any matter/problem at hand and critical (if sometimes indoctrinated) analysis has always helped. Not going with the stream but a bit side ways has brought discovery. Having people do the same mistakes over and over has never helped but intervention is asked for and that is what I have done.

If you want clean results use the best materials. Like http://cr4.globalspec.com/member?u=1314 'aurizon' said, platinum or titanium are the electrode materials of choice. Contamination of the electrolyte is reduced to an acceptable minimum and the scum will not have to float to the top, as it has done during this necessary clearing up of terminologies and insults towards hard working individuals like my self.

The OP should have enough feedback by now to change his approach or his choice of electrode materials involved. I have had my relevant exposure by now so good luck and happy experimenting.

Good luck to all, Ky.

Ky Greetings,

I don't know sharing views and correlation to science. To me the OP is asking for a solution to the scum and colour formation in his electrolysis water treatment plant. I think he means probably the effluent treatment.

Even if you dissolve ferrous sulphate in water and allow it to stand, the hydroxide part settles at bottom and you may see a floating scum atop. This is observed even in lime solution preparation.

So many factors contribute to this in my experience- acidic pH, foams and gases, presence of per-oxy or oxidative compounds, fatty components, dirt from atmosphere, temperature of effluent, dissolved oxygen and so on.

That is why a concurrent view of RVZ717 and a combined suggestion based on my experience was put up as solution. If the OP responds with his feed back I think it will be just a further learning to all of us. Your citicism is always welcome.

Let us all share our knowledge and views in an open manner and mutually educate us better. I appreciate your keen sense of perfection and emotional attachment to the issue. Cheers and regards.

Shall keep meeting again.

S.Udhayamarthandan

s.udhayamarthandan

Thank you for pointing out that cooperation is very important. I have tested my technology in sewerage plants and have avoided all the problems that some are still struggling with. This was 20 years ago and I am surprised that nothing much has changed. Raw sewage, tertiary treated effluent and under tropical conditions. That is were my knowledge comes from. I need to be more patient with people not knowing as much as I do about the matter and will try to rectify my sometimes too direct (emotional) responses.

I have been advised not to comment any further on this matter and will take that advice although I would love to help. Again, let me point out that the choice of materials used is of utmost importance. Thank you for your reply and good luck and success with all your and others endeavors, Ky.

RVZ717

With all due respect you have no idea of what you are talking about and should simply refrain from hitting hard at some thing you do not fully comprehend. Calling every one that deals with HHO a scamer or worse is just plain offensive and not constructive.

Just jumping on the band wagon for a (completely undeserved) GA is ludicrous and very irritating for the people that know about this fascinating area of science. I have been involved with electrolysis for many years (decades) and do not agree with your assumptions at all.

Distilled water!?, just laughable and completely wrong advice. This counts for the other participant who suggested that as well. Using high quality 316SS (I prefer the low quality variety) is not going to make a difference. Just rubbish!

You are confusing the OP and giving very unscientific and false advice. You should refrain from that and do your home work before commenting on such complex matters. Its not all about bubbles and discoloring electrolytes there is so much more to this branch of chemistry.

With all due respect, Ky.

PS: I can't remember the last time I used an explanation mark before this.

Interesting commentary. Very few doctors of Chemistry actually post on here about scientific application to the fad HHO, rather they usual tend toward the more typical electrochemistry terminologies. What research facility are you tenured at?

RCE

Nice that you bring a bit of humor to this. I can see your cheek bulging, don't know if left or right but the bulge must have been caused by your tongue, I bet.

It started in 1984 when I was checking if a 9.5 volt block battery was still usable. It was but the tingle on my tongue made me think. What was actually happening? It was from a peddle for my guitar so I had other priorities back then.

What was causing this tingle and if more current would be applied, what would happen then? The rest is history and I am still looking for tenure but think I have found it contained in my own little world. Just not "fit" for the academy but fit enough to read books and understand hands on what can and what can not be done.

I have a question for you: Can an armature receive a Nobel prize for chemistry? Note the bulge protruding from my normally straight cheek.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

Ky et al,

Start with clean water - rainwater, spring water etc - change the Ph using something that doesn't make ugly scum - use electrodes that are economically suited and don't add to the scum. Electrify it and enjoy.

Simple?

Jon

Whoh now.

I don't believe I called anyone a scammer. I did however state that The HHO Fad in general is a scam. I spent plenty of time making HHO units, making cutting torches, Blowing things up etc, I even put some onto a few engines(before I realised that real gains are not possible, but Pseudo-gains are very possible).

Jumping on the bandwagon? hmm... (no comment)

"Distilled water!?, just laughable and completely wrong advice."

So, do you propose using iron/calcium laden tap water? I'm sure that would help if your after as much discoleration and scum as possible. Distilled water has had all the impurities removed, therefore causing much less contamination.

"Using high quality 316SS (I prefer the low quality variety) is not going to make a difference. Just rubbish!"

You really believe this? Yes, there are a variety of 316SS compositions, one mill will made a higher/lesser quality than the other mill. So you suppose using plain carbon steel electrodes will provide the same result as high quality 316SS? I think not.

Do you sell HHO units?

sign me up.

Try electrolyses with silver electrodes and observe.

I've made purple water with soup ladels before, brown scum on top with tap water, and rusty?? water with 304SS.

Who says its an HHO system? There are some valid reasons for doing electrolysis of water for other purposes too!

Okay its very unlikely its not HHO related but still I tried.

Yes . However, it's also impossible to electrolyze UPW as it does not conduct electricity .

drsbishtmb,

If you are concerned about the mess use uncontaminated water and graphite electrodes.

Jon

drsbishtmb

What you are observing could be iodine being produced. Smell it and that should confirm that. If you are spiking your electrolyte with conductivity enhancing salt make sure it is not iodized salt. You will find the same if you would use ocean water. It is a strong disinfectant so collect it and put it on wounds.

It does not help in case of the opened HHO wound though. Infected with that and its for life.

Good luck, Ky.

Hi...

The deep yellow is color of Sodium after the Na+ ion releases the sodium metal. Salts usually NaCl is abundantly available in nature and easily dissolves itself in the water. In-case you are interested to continue without such issues then use distilled water for electrolysis.

then use distilled water for electrolysis.

You are a bit far away from here but I would love to see you show me how that is done. You could rewrite the history books if that was possible. How do you do it? Maybe with 500amps DC?

Rubbish!

Good luck, Ky.

Ky,

You assume distilled water is a non-conductor.

How would a non-conductor produce 500Amps DC?

Pure water is a poor conductor (rather than a non-conductor) of electricity. Conductivity of water is typically measured in Mhos, or Micromhos. Very well purified water can typically be brought as low as 0.1 - 0.2 micromhos.

To electrolyze distilled water you use a higher voltage and heat the water.

Or toss in a dash of salt.

Jon

Hi...you're correct. pure water is a poor conductor but not a non conductor. conductivity however increases with addition of a salt, acid or a base. The original question was elementary and there's no point to call it krap.

Aniltiwari,

I didn't call it krap.

Mess is not krap or crap.

Jon

I think he was referring to post#1 Jon, but what a mess, Ky.

Ky,

Could be.

A mess, never-the-less.

Jon

Thanks Jon

That's what I mean. You would need something like 500amps to have any kind of reaction at such low conductivity. The higher the conductivity the lower amps required to successfully have a electrochemical reaction. At least in my book, Ky.

Ky,

I was wondering if you meant 500 Volts.

Jon

Hi Jon

Its milli amps per mm/2 reaction area that does the deed. The volts/amps can be regulated but not in distilled water and if, for what reason? To waste amps on what?

I have done experiments with blood (human, mine) just to repeat experiments done by Prof. Reis back in the late sixties. Oxidizing parasites and enriching blood with O2. It failed but was interesting to do. It was way out of my league but I learned a bit or two and had some one in a lab who was interested as well. It was not a scam but pure interest in a very complex discipline.

So that is why I am, or was, quiet upset about these unqualified remarks by some. Sorry to insist on proper wording and the use of terminologies in this context. See what happens, Ky.

Ky,

You said 500 amps again. Double distilled water can electrolyze at less than 100 volts.

I see people saying that pure distilled water doesn't conduct, but it does. It just takes more voltage. As much as 300Volts to get the desired action.

500 amps is for making steam or treating fast flowing water.

Jon

Well I guess technically that is correct, but then all matter conducts, and even empty space if you apply enough voltage across a narrow enough distance.

RCE,

It is nice to do the work and prove it.

So with my Hi and low Voltage Supplies, Meter, tea kettle and ice cold condensor I can collect distilled water and use ac, the meter and electrodes to measure conductance without transferring material through the water.

How does 2.5 X 10ˆ5 Ohms sound? How many volts will do 1mA?

Long, long ago the smarter Greeks tended to come up with cool ideas and there is no evedence that they put them in practice. But with cheap labor in those days they didn't have a use for labor saving devices.

Like ants crossing a stream they must bring their own bridge material or they have to jump.

Transfer of electrical energy in space is done by producing ion trails like ants using thier bodies to bridge a stream.

Jon

You use distilled water, then add your PURE electrolyte to reduce resistance to a suitable level. Then you have nothing in the water but what you want. No scum.

The colour is caused by "contaminants" in the water. Try using demineralised water with a conductivity of say 1 uS/cm....... in order to make this conduct electricity you must add soemething like KOH (a 25% solution is good) or use a solid polymer type membrane like Nafion from Dupont.

Be careful that you do not cause any sparks during your experiments!

There are two sources of contamination. The first is the presence of dissolved solids, as someone mentioned, the other is dissolution of the electrodes used. Metal ions in solution are often colored. This makes me ask if you used a little acid? No matter, various species from contaminants in solution can also conspire to erode the electrodes.

In research they often use platinum or platinum plated electrodes for this reason.

You can also use graphite.

The scum sounds like a reaction between atmospheric CO2 and assorted species produced by electrolysis, either from the dissolved solids or the electrodes. Many carbonates are very insoluble and the presence of small bubbles of H2 and O2 would buoy them to the surface.

May we know what is the purpose of this electrolysis?

Water, whether distilled or with some impurities, has very high resistivity. One has to add some neutral ionizable salts like sodium hydroxide or carbonate to electrolyse it if the end products needed are hydrogen and oxygen gas.

Alkaline distilled water electrolyses well with graphite electrodes without any contamination seen. Soluble electrodes like iron, copper or other meatals will generate coloured ions at the anode.

Bioramani

In effluent treatment, in stead of using dissolved coagulants like ferrous sulphate, lime etc, the recent trend is using metal rods like Fe, Al etc and pass micro voltages where by which precipitation of suspended organics is brought by co ordinate / chelate complex around metal nucleus. This process is supposed to drastically reduce primary sludge generation.

This discussion has gone sideways, so let's keep it going. You may want to consider using urine. It's virtually all water, should not contain too many dissolved solids (unless you have a kidney stone), and requires only one-third the VDC for electrolysis. It's also free...any takers?

I haven't read all the other _^crap posts on this thread, but I'm guessing that your yellow scum is a chlorine compound. The chlorine arises from either chlorine treatment of the municipal supply or from the electrolysis of salty water (sodium chloride).

PWSlack,

"If it were not impurities in the water then electrolysis couldn't happen!"

If that were true then pure water could be used for an electrical insulator.

I don't think it is as black and white as your statement implies.

The Voltage required for disassociation of water based on its impurity changes but it can not be truthfully said that it can't happen.

It seems that the contaminants surfacing is an issue to the OP.

Jon

Vermin,

Thanks for the clue.

After looking further:

Beyond use as a cleaner, applications include industrial applications where electronics are involved. In electronic applications the deionized water has no electrical conductance (it's an insulator) so it can be used to indirectly cool electrical circuits without risk of causing a short if it leaks.
There are some applications for deionized water in boiler work as well. Treated water has no minerals for scale formation and has very low dissolved gasses.

The disadvantage of deionized water is that it is very corrosive to metal. Since it has no dissolved solids in it, water will seek equalibrium with whatever it contacts. So water with a pH of 7.0 can dissolve metal pipe. Especially yellow metals like copper and brass. It is also very aggressive to mild steel or "black" iron, and forget about galavanized pipe it would be a goner. Piping that resists the effects best is PVC or glass.

Jon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Kohlrausch

Give that man a cigar!!! And a GA point!!!

PW,

GA from me after more careful consideration.

Jon

I sent a reply ot your querry. did you receive it .

Envirol@slt.lk. Wije Srilanka