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EM Braking

10/13/2009 1:42 AM

Hello, My project requires creating an EM braking system that will brake an aluminum disk that is connected to a ¾ inch in diameter spinning shaft. The shaft will be turned by a dc motor, http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/NPC-T64.html. The dimension of the disk has not been finalized but will be around 6 inches in diameter and thickness of 4mm. Ideally, the braking system will reduce the speed of the shaft once RPM value is greater than 200 RPM. Thus, the magnet iron core will need to induce a strong enough magnetic field to reduce the maximum RPM (230) to 200RPM. The source that will be supplying current to the magnetic core will be a 12V car battery. My question is: what is your suggestion on the gauge of the wire? What should the dimension of the core be roughly about? The number of turns of the magnet wire needed? Any help is appreciated. Thanks

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#1

Re: EM Braking

10/13/2009 3:07 AM

Just out of interest, why don't you control the speed of the motor?

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 1:00 AM

I'm with you on this......it sounds too simple to be true.....

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#2

Re: EM Braking

10/13/2009 10:36 PM

Suggest you use a flat permanent magnet on each side with a caliper mechanism to bring the flat magnets close to the spinning disk with an RPM counter in a feedback loop to change the gap. This needs close tolerance and the magnets must be flat and perfectly parallel to the surface. The closer they get the more brake action, but you do not want the spinning disk to wobble or the brakes to be angled. flat magnets from a dead hard drive would be ideal and they already have an armature you can improvise from. Do not shock the magnets or heat them.

You can also simply buy magnets.

Look here for tips.

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=%22magnetic+brake%22+%2B%22how+to%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=%22magnetic+brake%22+%2B%22how+to%22&fp=3297ab6c55cbe21d

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=%22magnetic+brake%22+%2B%22build%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=&fp=3297ab6c55cbe21d

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#3

Re: EM Braking

10/13/2009 11:11 PM

What mechanism are you using for the braking? If you are you talking about using induction in the aluminum disk to create resistance to forward momentum and generate a braking effect then you have a lot of work ahead of you.

Here are just a few issues you need to deal with or balance out before you even think about the gauge of wire involved.

1. 230 RPM isn't really that fast and generating enough back EMF from that speed will take a very strong magnetic field. Additionally, that motor is geared down and will create a ton of torque. If you do generate enough back EMF to slow this disk down you are dumping all that power as heat. That disk is going to get DANG hot.

2. Balancing the back EMF generated by the magnets against the power of the motor is going to be tough. Calculating that balance point to be right at 200 RPM is even going to be harder. Without some other speed management system I don't think that there is an easy way to even calculate a stable point. Remember that as you brake the spinning disk the motor will draw more current. This will cause it to start heating up which in turn reduces the strength of the PM motors magnets and the power of the motor. This is an extremely dynamic system that will be almost impossible to control without some feedback loop and if you have a feedback loop why do you need EMF braking to keep it at 200 RPM.

3.......

I just realized that I could keep going for a long time on this and I may be off track for what you are hoping to accomplish. Could you give us a more detailed description of what you are trying to do and the techniques you want to use to accomplish it.

Doug

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#4

Re: EM Braking

10/13/2009 11:45 PM

Sorry, I can't help.

I once had a formula linking Torque to surface speed (RPM, distance from axis), resistance of the moving Al (resistivity, thickness, size of magnetically coupled area) and Strength of field (No of turns, current, impedance of magnetic circuit, corrections for fringing). I tidied up and threw it out 20 years ago. Never again!

I'm now too stupid to derive it from first principles and anything to do with magnetics and small motors usually has a whole lot of unknown parameters, so I'd build a few models and test them.

Once you've got some results you can home in on a practical solution (it may not be pretty, but it's common engineering practice).

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#6

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 1:46 AM

You've left out the most critical information, that being how the motor is driven. The motor can produce a large amount of torque, if supplied with ample current. None of this stuff works by magic, so you can expect a lot of heat to be generated, unless you have provided for low amperage to the motor, via, for example, a speed controller.

Why not just control the motor speed directly -- or are you planning to use this device to cook eggs?

If you are assuming 230 rpm is "maximum" because the motor is loaded (in your application) to 30 inch-lb, (and is fed by e.g., a pair of car batteries in series for 24 volts) then loading it to 210 inch lb would increase the amperage to 31.6 and drop the speed to 200 rpm. Your eddy brake would then be dissipating roughly 450 watts. Most of the energy feeding the motor would go into heating up the aluminum disc and draining the 12 volt battery.

I'd suggest experimenting a little to see if this is the route you want to take -- are you are building a dynamometer?

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#7

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 3:59 AM

I agree with nearly everyone else here. But if you still want to go ahead, I'd follow Aurizon's advice and use permanent magnets, but, instead of moving the magnets in and out myself: I'd use magswitches.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 10:05 AM

That's a fairly elaborate website, but I was unable to find an illustration of the internal construction (how they work). It sounds like a rare-earth version of the standard magnetic chuck/vise, although the actuating handles seem awfully small.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 10:45 AM

These things really "seem" to defy everything I understand about conservation of energy. A colleague bought one of the featherboards for wood working. Hold it against a filing cabinet, and let go, it falls off; hold it against a filing cabinet and turn the knobs through about 90 to 180° (with a force which a three year old could easily manage), and it becomes impossible to pull off. Unlocking it to remove it is just as easy.

There may be a clue to how they work in the little picture by the name:-

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 11:06 AM

Yep! That's shown in the 'off' position.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 11:28 AM

Those switchable magnets are seriously cool. I sure wish they did violate conservation of energy rules, but I am pretty sure they don't. :-)

They work on the same principles as a Halbach array. I did manage to find an internal diagram of one and I will post it if I can find it again. I was using the concept as inspiration for a project I was working on. Regrettably I have way too many projects and I never got back to it.

Doug

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#15
In reply to #10

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 12:40 PM

This is just what the "magnet motor" crowd needs! Sadly, I'd guess that this company could sell several million dollars of these configured to fit in a circular array to "experimenters" with magnet motors*

*This is secret, so please do not repeat it: most physicists are "in " on the secret that magnet motors work just fine. I am not (technically speaking) a physicist, but my high school physics teacher said I was his best student in 20 years of teaching, so he let me know the secret. Physicists belong to a special secret society* (the emblem for which is on a one dollar bill). I am only divulging this information under the guard of "off-topic" posting, and trust that you will reveal it to no one.

*Financed mainly by ExxonMobile and friends of our current president as part of a communist-Marxist-fascist-ultra-conservative-liberal-overeducated-redneck plot to make the average working Joe a slave to elitist physics teachers. As proof of this, I submit that my physics teacher had both a Sunbeam Tiger and a BMW 2002... at the same time. Ordinary teachers of the day had to make do with either walking to school or riding in on a lawn tractor.

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#8

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 9:59 AM

It almost sounds like you are using this EM brake to govern the speed?

The first thing that came to mind when reading your question... trains. Wiki "Dynamic braking", it will give an overview of how that works. However, I am not sure that is what you are trying to do. The other posters here have some pretty good observations and ideas, probably closer to your design idea.

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#13
In reply to #8

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 11:46 AM

http://www.earthchain.com/case-studies/5axis/5Axis.htm

This will explain how they work. They are called magnetic holding devices

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: EM Braking

10/14/2009 12:04 PM

I took a look at that page and it is an interesting description, but the diagram they use to show how the device works is definitely off. The magnet configuration they show in the diagram wouldn't produce the effect they are describing. I am not sure if in the process of dumbing it down for the web audience they messed it up or if they are trying to protect trade secrets.

Here is a link to a patent describing how it works (in legal patent speak) http://www.google.com/patents?id=3nctAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I was looking for something better, but that describes it the best I can find so far.

Doug

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#16

Re: EM Braking

10/15/2009 2:56 AM

have you thought of a linear motor?

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#17

Re: EM Braking

10/15/2009 9:24 AM

This is starting to look like one of those exercises from a Guest... I am picking up some good pointers from this thread, is the OP?

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