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Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/02/2007 3:28 PM

It would seem the Global Warming hoax and the Hydrogen Economy hoax are linked. There is no energy crisis, only a leadership and product crisis. 250 mpg is well within reach for auto transit and the hydrogen economy via fuel cells will never get there in 100 years. There should be no investment in hydrogen as a fuel, and I would be so bold as to say the fuel cell is history for transit within 3-5 years. There are going to be a lot of bankrupt fools out there. The hydrogen bubble will explode in an ice blue flame…soaking all the investors with their water pipe dream.

Future of Hydrogen economy: Bright or Bleak

http://www.efcf.com/reports/E02_Hydrogen_Economy_Report.pdf

Read that article and other such articles and realize that we are being duped again. The article shows what is needed, and a hydrogen economy is not the ticket. It is pretty obvious that the carbon cycle is what planet earth runs on, not a hydrogen cycle. A possible cycle is explained in the article. There may be room for some small usage of hydrogen, but after reading the article, I don't think so.

It would appear that the commi UN is out to screw us again with their pet projects that are an attempt to make themselves relevant. First make up a fuel tax under the Global Warming hoax, then force us all to hydrogen to make any power usage massively expensive. Since fuel taxes piss people off, now they want to scare us into a much higher tax to fund their lifestyles so that we all cannot move about and travel and the cost of living puts us all in poverty. Control, control, control. Inststead of lifting us all up, they want to tare down the USA.

The final report is their commi plan. It is a total waste of taxpayer's dollars and reeks with totally insane plans to screw us all, steeped in insane business ideas that nobody with their brain turned on would dream of investing in. It is basically a "partnership" where the judge is part of the game and picks favorites. More rank politics. There should never be such a thing as a "partnership" in any event. Would you think having a referee partner with one team on a soccer match would be looked upon as valid? No! Government must remain neutral, including ALL research and development money. Neither should government be taking sides and selecting technologies that will win or loose, nor should they plan or participate. Their function is in laws and rules, not partnerships. I have a lot of ideas that would solve most of the pollution problems, just like you might have, in the world, but many are or could be banned by the UN. It is not my position to force you to pay for my pet projects. If you want to buy it and vote for it with your own money, that is how you support changes, not by fiat of government decree. Having the government select the future (hydrogen based) is not only scary by deadly. The UN gang needs to spend 20 years in prison and then work a day job scrubbing floors and getting reality.

Why is knowing the truth about the Global Warming and Hydrogen Economy hoax important to engineering and engineers? It drives literally everything we do or will be involved with in the future. It is the difference in engineers making and changing the world for good, or sending us into the dark ages of Stalanistic thuggery. It is the difference in engineers lifting the world out of poverty, or trapping them their for good killing millions. It is the difference in billions of lives from the next WW over oil, or a planet where transit is as cheap as surfing on the internet. After all we can't have the unwashed masses on our roads moving about enjoying life now can we.

The hydrogen economy is a clear hoax and seriously bad engineeing and bad science. The very nature of hydrogen tells you this.

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Guru
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#1

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/02/2007 6:46 PM

Seaplaneguy: Why so angry?

I don't know anyone who takes the UN that seriously except a handful of academics and employees of the UN itself and I suspect many of them get nauseated by much that they see goes on in there. It is the ultimate bureaucracy (and I speak as a student of bureaucracies).

Everyone knows, or should know there is no shortage of energy, and never will be. Rather the energy crisis has to do with fossil fuels getting more expensive than they were.

Global Warming is a hoax in some ways, but the overall effect is not necessarily bad as it calls attention to the fact that we are taking on responsibilities of managing our effect on the planet that we are ill prepared to live up to.

The hydrogen thing? That is the closest thing to a hoax I see, and is for the most part a needless distraction for the near term.

But who is the enemy here? In the U.S., we don't teach enough science in the schools, a large proportion of the population takes the Bible "literally" and extrapolates their interpretaion to answer questions such as the age of the earth/universe, existence of evolution. etc etc. We are educated yet scientifically illiterate at the same time. (I am in no way criticizing the bible, or belief in it, only the idea that people use it to answer questions that properly fall within the realm of scientific inquiry which should have no bearing on one's belief in God.) As pogo said "We have met the enemy ...... and it is us". It is not so much that we are being "hoaxed" as it is that we (collectively) are so damn "hoaxable". To a large extent, we get the leaders we deserve. When the automobile buying public selects for more efficiency so then will the manufacturer's priorities change.

It is not that I disagree with your points necessarily, just the vehemence and the extent to where you place blame. There is waste and inefficiencies in all human endeavors: whether by governments, corporations, universities or individuals. Our ranting and raving about governments, the UN, or corporations accomplishes nothing. The "perfect world" is a fantasy ... it never has and never will exist.

Best Wishes for the New Year!

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Guru
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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/04/2007 11:40 PM

Hello Greg

We are less Carbon and more water and this is so for the entire earth. Hydrogen is fuel for tomorrow but not free from troubles. H2N2 or Hydrazine is carcinogenous agent and more produced due to hydrogen fuel. It is also produced in nuclewar reactors, heavy water plants and fuel reprocessing plants, missile firing, rocket launching and also by NASA space shuttles.

CO2 will keep coming from forest fires and many other sources.

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#3

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/05/2007 6:40 AM

Hi I am a new poster to this site,

I have been receiving Global spec reports for quite some time.

I tried to interest them in a news story but was told politely that they were not interested, but if I advertised I could run what story I like in my own advertising space. As a retired pensioner continuing my research and development, although I no longer have the funds to very much like I use to do, I still continue.

I was appalled by the pollution in the river Derwent in Tasmania in the 90's that got me interested in wastewater treatment. After many interesting projects that I looked into, many had no hope of succeeding. I created a few of my own, an eventually came up and tested the process on a small scale enough to prove that the process could be viable. The by product was Hydrogen a litre for every litre treated. I tried to get a grant under the 'Smart Water fund' they turned me down.

The reason at that time, October 2000, the cost of it in power was too much. They had done some sums and as usual got it wrong because they did not understand it.

I have been looking for a way to solve that problem. Much of what I have seen is garbage; I have been following a number of forums on Hydrogen, in forms.

I happened to fine this forum while looking at an item in the Global news letter, I was to unsubscribe but I had not got a round to it.

I have read your posts on 'can we engineer an answer to the energy problem'

You all missed the main one, the earth is 75% covered by water!

The rockets motors taking the shuttle to space run on separated water, Hydrogen and Oxygen, just mixed in the right quantities and ignighted.

It costs them a lot the way that the do it, why haven't they spent a little on research?

Yes the Hydrogen the way that it has been portrayed is hogwash and a lot of money has been wasted in the wrong areas. The oil companies do not want any one to succeed while they control our economy.

Why haven the Americans done anything about it, or better still why do they keep on using 'old rocket' technology, do some real research, into a new propulsion method.

Maybe they have but again are the oil companies involved.

Electrolyses is being used in 'water cells' to assist in the economy of running the motor car. Many are not worth any thing, some are cons, however, there are some that are genuine and work. Maybe not that well yet but at least they are trying, and from some of the posts I have read in your forum the 'Electrolysis' many of you are sceptical about it. Have any of you tried it, made a cell proved it wrong and not viable, as engineers you should do better than the amateurs?

I have been using Electrolysis for a long time, but I have elected to go a different way.

I hope to soon have a prototype of the OZ Injector to test, this has a more than 80% of total success at the first trials but it's new and I have discussed it with some engineering friends who agree, there are some electronic and control circuits to come up with yet, but nothing that has to be reinvented.

If I had some funding it may go a little quicker but in this world you prove it, then get funding, it some times get harder then.

Projections if successful would to run a diesel, but it maybe easier to run a gas turbine first. The fuel yes WATER.

So, if that's the case the energy problem solved, water from the sea, desalinated will run it's own turbines for it's power with plenty left over.

Just thing what the American Navy would thing if the Australia Navy destroyers were running on water from the sea, not having to refuel or use oil?

This is not a hoax it's real and happening it may be slow but I am a pensioner.

aussepom

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Guru
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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/05/2007 7:11 AM

Oh boy!

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/05/2007 7:25 AM

Oh girl?

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Guru
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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/05/2007 7:42 AM

Seaplaneguy:

The "Oh Boy!" comment was in response to aussepom's "impending breakthrough".

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/05/2007 1:52 PM

Greg,

Are you going to help him make his break through, or is she going to remain a virgin?

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Guru
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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/05/2007 3:39 PM

Seaplaneguy:

You might be confusing his hydrogen power with that most powerful of all energy sources (for us guys): "hymengen" power and related drive technologies. Many of us have contributed to breakthroughs in this area. This is an issue we strive to stay on top of, as we continue to learn new ways of converting its seemingly endless potential energy into the kinetic forms we prefer, such as those involving the application of reciprocating or oscillating (not to be confused with osculation, which we often apply earlier in the conversion process) methodologies.

My "Oh Boy!" did not mean "WOW, At last we have found it! A source of boundless free energy."

We are surrounded by an infinite supply of "free" energy. The trick as you know, is to utilize it economically and/or without expending more in the process. I was always fascinated by the Wizard of OZ, at least until Toto pulled the curtain aside.

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Guru
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#7
In reply to #3

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/05/2007 12:16 PM

Dear aussepom

Please be very specific of what you want from others or what is that you may like to offer to others. I am sure you have some plan.

Do you have a technology, which works and has economic way out? Start a small company and sell Hydrogen and Oxygen both.

If you think it is for others to take the technology, then look for it continuously by new paper advertizement and perhaps build a pilot plant to demo and have NDA if you think they may copy by looking at or go for patent.

Tell me how many kg of liquid or gas hydrogen I will get for input power applied to it and also give me an estimate on the plant cost?

Just because some one does not support you, you need not feel bad and make it public. Many dogs bark in my street. Who cares. CR4 is a place where many will hear you but sone may have finance to support your projects. Many here may be like you but very humble and nice people with lots of brain power with lightning speed. They think for you and their pains has been worth a great deal for me. They may not know but I care for their views irrespective of too the point or not. They are thinking exactly the way you are doing.

Cheer up and show up your power. Even if you fail then not to worry at all. We care.

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/06/2007 1:56 AM

thank you for a reasonable reply, it would seem that Greg C and Seaplaneguy are no better than in the other forums, I thought that amongst enegineers it would not be as bad so I am wrong.

I have looked at your site and see that you manufacture many types of instumentation.

when the time is right I will explain the OZ Injector but it seems there are some smart A here as well I will try and send a private email to your company in India that is if you are interested.

aussepom

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Guru
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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/06/2007 3:56 AM

Aussepom:

I wish you well.

But when someone comes to an engineering forum with a version of perpetual motion:

"So, if that's the case the energy problem solved, water from the sea, desalinated will run it's own turbines for it's power with plenty left over."

And so blatantly violates the law of conservation of energy, which is a basic part of our profession, I will make fun of them because you have made fun of us.

" .... and from some of the posts I have read in your forum the 'Electrolysis' many of you are sceptical about it. Have any of you tried it, made a cell proved it wrong and not viable, as engineers you should do better than the amateurs?"

It takes more energy to separate hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrolysis than you get back from combining them. That's not because only amateurs have tried it. Engineers and scientists have been working with electrolysis for hundreds of years. Its not an opinion, or some conspiracy by the oil companies, it is basic chemistry and the underlying physics, including the law of conservation of energy.

That is not to say that it couldn't piggy back off some other process, utilizing some of the energy presently wasted but I can only go by your words and claims as you presented them and the context in which presented. You were pretty clear in claiming a version of perpetual motion and equally clear in not understanding the energy equations involving water, hydrogen and oxygen.

Work with Shyam, he is a smart man and extraordinarily polite, (which isn't easy when many dogs bark in your street) but speaking for myself, no point in beating around the bush here. It's an engineering forum, not a "feel-good" group therapy session. If we were talking one on one you would find me quite polite, but this is a public forum and many of us are loathe to leave wild claims based on violations of physical "laws" go unchallenged. Instead of complaining about how your idea is received, take the time and educate yourself on the relevant topics. Then come back and you will find your audience much more receptive. Believe it or not, I would love to be proved wrong, but proved is the operative word.

Good Luck.

Greg

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Guru
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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/09/2007 11:56 PM

Dear Greg

Manufacturing (generating) energy in private is tough in India as government supplied comes at 10% cost. I prefer to spend more time in other areas where survival is more easy. I like you and other young engineers trying out realistic technology and working hard to achive within short time to see it working.

While talking about perpetual machine may be just wasting of time as that is not within our control with so many forces acting against our methods. We are not a 100% friction free system so will never be perpetual. We can ride the force and divert part of it to our use and part we can waste or leave it in the system in different forms or let it go the way it can.

Most of the organic solar devices are in the waiting. I expect some break through in solat active bio-material as well. This may give way to manufacture our material using bio-reactors. Will that be efficient and can it supply energy for space vehicles will remain a great question. Perhaps for that one need to find another types of force strings that can pull one from earth to any where one wishes. I think, that can only be in stories for now and good for Movies.

I am more worried about waste free storage media of energy. I need for of this in less space and something that will not change the environment seriously other than small change in temperature. Hence, batteries still remain good thing for me to store energy and take it back whenever I need. I am yet to think of Hydrogen as storage media and will not mind exploring it. I looked at some National Geograic video where they have shown dragons using Hydrogen as fire source to scare other animals. It may be nice to think, how they can manage to produce and store Hydrogen. Perhaps looking at natural conversion processes for Hydrogen from whatever material it may be, we can derive some ideas and can look at possibilities of accepting some that are economic. Current world is economy driven and hence must be better than existing processes or for future prospects.

It is worth thinking even in small areas. It does not matter if these are economic or not. A collective thinking may help. I can not manufacture a match box for 100$ but I can buy it for 0.01$ with 50 counted fire sticks. I wonder how they can achieve it. I also wonder that erasable graphite pencil I buy for same amount has 101 ingradients in graphine based lead, writing media. Current way of business is like extracting whatever maximum one can from a needy person. There is rarely any ethics involved. Governments some times put some restrictions and also talk of free trade on the same table/s.

It is great for me to hear from you all. Keep talking and talking tough does not mean you are not polite thinkers.

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#27
In reply to #3

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

05/30/2007 12:18 AM

sorry but event water isn't free. we're currently presented with a water shortage in many populated zones on the plantet ... i say burn oil and save water

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#28
In reply to #3

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

06/13/2009 9:00 PM

Dear Aussepoem:

I have a blog also talk about the sea water energy unlimited source!

There are some light shown to other invention made by a cancer doctor found radio wave burn seawater, by desalination and generate Hydrogen the same time. I believe there is a way to reach our goal of believing this will come true!

Keep up the good work! I am with you!

chin.lee@cadcamcae-engine.com

www.cadcamcae-engine.com

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#12

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/09/2007 6:39 PM

Odd, isn't it? One hoax thread gets a zillion responses, and this gets so few. Maybe we are all worn out from arguing in the GWH thread. Or maybe we all agree on this (although Shyam, to his credit, remains optimistic). For cars, at least, there just seem to be so many hurdles to overcome, aside from the formidable issues of creating the H2 economically. I think that with batteries progressing so quickly in capacity/weight and charge time, straight electric will be the way to go, for cars. Certainly H2 still holds allure for generating power, but wow, even there, how to jump the hurdles? Mine hydrides?

Seems we need a modern version of plain old solar power: direct to thermal, and light to PE>batteries>inverters. I "know" (i wish) that light-to-elec seems to have such potential. Granted, even at high efficiency (80%) solar panels would take up some area but wouldn't it be nice?

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/10/2007 6:03 PM

Mr. Fry,

When the Global Warming hoax is nuked, the reason for the hydrogen hoax also destroyed.

It would seem I won the debate...

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/10/2007 9:21 PM

Seaplaneguy:

You (and we CR4'ers) won the debate because the debate isn't with most of the CR4 members. We all pretty much agree that the hydrogen thing is overhyped, typically by researchers looking for a new grant, people trying to scam investors, dumb politicians, the "then we can get unlimited power from the 3/4 of the world that is covered with water" crowd, and the auto companies that make concept cars "for the future" that are so "fantastic" while in the meantime their assembly lines churn out inefficient junk. Those people won't debate, and I expect to be hearing a lot more about "our hydrogen future" for some time yet.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/10/2007 11:30 PM

To build a technology that will last takes more than few words. People who do that kind of work will not go by what others say. Unless truth is known to that level, people will not dump billions of dollars on projects.

To start a project one requires the following

1. Proven technology

2. Proven economical reason

3. Acceptable safety norms

4. Government permission

5. Investors in the technology

6. Reasonable timeframe to implement the technology to get return on the investment

Assuming that first four points are done, the point five alone may take 5-10 years to start with. We can not even start a coal, oil or nuclear plant even after crossing point 1-3. Investor evalute where invested money will give better return. It goes there. You also go where you get money for your engineering.

Hence, few words on technology ideas take it to no where. Firewoood is the only fuel on earth which never needed a big plan to start using it and it has caused a lots of problem now.

I greatly appreciate thinking but that does not mean anything when it comes to power production. Those six++ rules, rule the world.

For economic reason we can have gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan to India. We fought two wars with Pakistan, and we have lots of problem in Kashmir, we voted against Iran in the United Nations and yet these countries will safeguard our gas pine line. This should make sense to all that economic power is greater than political power and racial power. If there is money in your pocket coming from your enemy also then accept it as good gift from God.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 1:17 AM

Shyam:

Nothing I said is in disagreement with what you were saying.

The reference to investor scams was related to GM's fuel cell concept cars, whose main purpose was to burn through a government grant and pump up their stock price (they need it). It was also related to companies that either make fuel cells now (mostly for the military, or NASA) or startup companies doing research, who both find it convenient to "talk up" the "fuel cell in every home" idea to .... you guessed it: pump up their stock price and/or attract new investors.

The hydrogen fuel cell not only has a future, it is used right now, but is very expensive, and does not last very long with the present technology. Fuel cells that can burn other fuels are essentially hydrogen fuel cells with a pretreatment section to strip the H2 from methane or whatever, although as you know much work is presently going on in the area of small fuel cells running on alcohol for instance, to replace or supplant batteries for portable applications. But a fuel cell to provide heat and power for a home is still long off, and that leaves all the rest of the H2 supply infrastructure to be developed, and that is the bigger challenge by far. We all know the H2 thing CAN work, its just that it is much more costly and less efficient overall, in so many ways for the foreseeable future than a multitude of other technologies, and therefore, as you also say, will not attract the massive amounts of capital investment needed until it becomes economical to do so.

Global warming is an entirely separate issue and while it is no doubt being hyped up, I feel that prudence requires we pay some attention to it, despite the fact that there is so many other longterm and short term natural climatic variables at work. Sort of like the idea of insurance ... I bet my house doesn't burn down while I own it, but I hedge that bet by buying some insurance ... just in case. I have read too many studies that show that increased CO2 levels help some plants yet are not favorable for some others and definitely hurt some by increasing the acidity of water for one thing. Of course CO2 levels have been much higher at times in the past and life evolved to adapt if it had time, or those that couldn't died off. We also know that there have been many dramatic shifts in climate in the past but now we have some 6 1/2 billions of people living on the planet, many at bare substinence levels.

I am well aware we live on a dynamic planet and revolve around a star whose heat output fluctuates but we are now having such widespread harmful effects on our biosystem that we had better pay closer attention to what we are doing. Its possible the increased CO2 will prevent the next ice age, but as I said we should tread lightly until we know more. Its not like the fluorocarbon thing where we banned them .. so far despite all the talk, we are continuing to spew out increasing amounts of CO2 so it can't hurt to buy a little insurance by at least trying to cut back where we can. What we have done to the oceans is nothing short of criminal ... we are exceeding the capacity of nature to "clean up our messes" and are assuming "caretaker" responsibilities that we are ill prepared to carry out in a responsible manner. In my mind, the global warming issue is far less important (although related to other pollutants concurrently released with CO2) to our overall pollution and desecration of our planet in so many ways . It's the only one we have, so we better get it right. Those of us who have raised tropical fish in an aquarium know how humbling that can be .. and we can't change our own water!

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#21
In reply to #17

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 6:38 AM

Dear Gred

You are wiser in thinking and that is what we all need to understand facts. Deviating from fact will serve no purpose of scientific ideas, while economics driven actions will give some gain and will come at some risk factor to be gaurded in time.

Learn from tiny cells we have. They are formed, multiplied, destroyed on their own to make us systain. We have different types of them to do different things.

Now this analogy is also good for what we do. If we find things are working safely then multiply, and remove them safely. If something bad tried in the system then remove it as poison. our greater cell in the earth itself and hence, we are inner part to make it survive and not to blow it off for fun. We need to understand the limits. Early we know, better we will care for it. We all think that we should care, but only some try to contribute properly.

My total house power consumption does not exceed 400kW per month and my son and me use computer most of the time so it goes mainly in that. Perhaps my son burns some oil in his bike. I do not use any unless I go for teaching. Young people need more power as they are at the starting point of life. India is low in power consumption, but will not remain at low for long. It will contribute to world problem soon as our per capita is going up fast and your generation is rapidly multiplying 10 folds. We may be as bad as Americans in power consumption burden to the world very soon even though per capita power consumption may be low for us. The number will be very large. In 10 years we sure will be 2 billion people in numbers and there is no breaks to it now. As our population is all under twenty, educated and with western life attitude, we sure will be bad to the world environment. Right now 80% population consume as low as 1kW per days in power from all means and amounts to 1000MW only. Other power goes to industry and cities with 20% living there.

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 1:17 AM

Greg,

Yes, I appologize. "We" won the debate.

I take it you are an electric utility employee? Is that correct?

How would you get a utility to see that an engine like what I am doing would add valuable "spin" power, and reserve power and complement coal powered plants as the base loads, allowing large flexibility. If you take the military base as an example with 25 mw overnight load and 45 mw peak, a coal plant coul run at the 25 MW base at a constant rate and my engines could run the 20 mw variable power. I see win-win, but you imply such would not work.

The way I look at it, electric power should be based on price, not on cost of capital.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 1:52 AM

Seaplaneguy:

Sorry to disappoint you ... I do not, nor have I or anyone in my family worked for an electric utility or energy company of any kind.

Your engine may well have a place ... HTF would I know? I can only deduce that it is some kind of "compound" engine, possibly of the "free piston" type, or sharing a common crankshaft if one is present, but that's only an idle guess. I don't mean to imply that some "mystery" engine wouldn't work (and I don't mean "mystery" to be disrespectful, only that its workings are totally unexplained), my disagreement is with how you play with words and numbers to justify it as our salvation, while saying everyone else has it so wrong.

You say:

"The way I look at it, electric power should be based on price, not on cost of capital."

That has been obvious in your approach to this issue. How you or I look at it matters not a bit. It simply is what it is in our economic system, and you know very well that the cost of capital is figured in, otherwise nothing would ever be built (government controlled economies excluded, and even they ignore capital costs at their own peril). At the moment we are suffering from some twisted mix of "free market" power suppliers and regulated public utilities connected by an overtaxed grid that it seems in no ones specific economic interest to invest in improving it.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 2:18 AM

Greg,

Ok.

The grid needs power generation at the load. There is a lot of value to the the power company if they can put non base loads onto local generation. This would save a massive amount of money for "new roads" on the electronic highway.

It all comes down to control. Who is in control. I say principals control, not people. People administer a set base of principal or constitution. Monopoly utilities violates principal. Distributed power should sign up customers and bill and generate power. Utilites just want their protected jobs. No longer...

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 7:17 AM

Seaplaneguy:

Some posts you have made regarding your engine where you are providing some details are interesting. But you spend ever so much effort tilting at windmills that you and I can't change and in some cases, shouldn't be changed at least not without embracing communism or some other idiotic system.

Regulated public utilities evolved over time to fill a variety of needs ... most were worthy, a few were the result of corporate and/or political corruption ... we live in an imperfect world. In fact you are the only perfect person I know, except for me, but I made a mistake 32 yrs ago so I don't count anymore.

For my part, I want a reliable source of power at a reasonable price. I have the former, but at $.20/KWh not the latter. However the very last thing I would want is for unregulated competing power companies, entrepreneurs, or whatever running around stringing their wires and cables, creating their mini-grids and related infrastructure with no regard for each other, or me, all the while competing for my business. I went through the telephone equivalent with the (necessary) breakup of AT&T, but telecommunications are one thing, and electricity is quite another.

I am presently trying to figure out how I might harness some of the wasted energy you expend ranting and raving about so many issues, and recycle it into your engine work where it might well show some return. If I can apply regenerative griping, with an Algor hot air hybrid approach boost, you should get the engine done in no time.

I'm having some fun here at times anyway, and I hope you are too.

Greg

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 7:52 AM

Dear Greg

I have seriously looked at aluminum can processing methods of Brazil and they can easily remove small aluminum what is just a coating on a paper. Lot of diginity has been given to can collectors and there were some women doing this job with pride. I share their feelings.

Barzil also has a bio dump power station. Bio dump is in the ground, protected for seepage / leaching, with top layer covered and pipes inserted into the dumped ground.This generates power and perhaps right now considered safe. In long run may become a problem. Gas from dump can explode the buinding constructed above it. I have looked at some documentaries on this.

Wind sure is a very good resource. So is solar power. These are much better than using woodfire and freely gifted by God unless government start a tax on these. In India government licenced use of radio and TV and it was crime having these without paying tax to government. There was time when manufacturing the mechanical dialing telephone box was meant to be CIA agent. No one cared for KGB name here. They perhaps were totally ignored. Now there is fancy for ISI agents in India. Anything wrong can be blamed to them. Even power fuse blowing may be called ISI plan here. Never mind all that and we care for small power. Petrol is now more than $1/L. This will slow down the boys and girls and they are now riding CNG buses. India may purchase all gas stock of the world, so if you want to sell, here you should look for business.

We are good at solid / liquid fuel now, so much to that, that today we could manage place four satellites using only one rocket, directly into desired orbits and this rocket will pick one satellite while returning home back to earth. No need for shuttle now. We can do the job at half the cost if that makes sense. Write to our President and perhaps he can plan a rocket that can through 100s of satellitle. Our President is rocket scientist and not a businessman. Perhaps we can have PM and others also like him.

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 10:39 AM

Shyam, I enjoy your posts in more ways than I can possibly list. In addition to your insights on many issues there's the subtle humor, which rarely fails to brighten my day: "Even power fuse blowing may be called ISI plan here." It's a treat to participate in CR4 with you.

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 10:24 AM

Nicely put, Greg.

I, too, think Seaplaneguy has some good ideas, but I think they are buried in political diatribe, wild speculation, conspiracy theories, etc. Possibly... I'm not sure here... but what ticks me off most is that he is just like me -- but we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum (in some ways, but not others). I too, blend in a mix of tongue-in-cheek (often right at the edge -- or over the edge -- of sarcasm), and am not at all averse to slipping in jibes at a particular theory or viewpoint as if they were fact. (As we all know, Republicans are sociopaths, as proven by the peer-reviewed study done by psychologists at UC Berkley.)

There is no walk of life in which one can separate "the job" from politics... provided one thinks about what one does over the course of the day. I have devoted a good portion of my life to both automotive and industrial safety issues, and two of my best clients, by far, have been Bridgestone/Firestone and Ford. Firestone tires cause Explorers to flip over. Ford Explorers cause Firestone tires to blow out.* Was there a cover up on the part of BOTH -- yes, the letters are there to prove it. But within each company, I know many many good solid people, many innovators, etc.

I have also participated in establishing plants in Mexico, that inarguably take American jobs across the border. But there are huge benefits for both countries in doing this stuff, just as there are huge benifits for the company involved (in this case, Ford). As Ford goes so goes the country...? An intermediate step in this transition was Brazil -- where I could see that the Ford plant there brought tremendous economic benefits to the people. I like those people. I like the people in the old Pennsylvania plant. Easy answers... no.

Laissez-faire is not they way to go: the extreme example of Laissez-faire gone wrong might be being the machine gunning by Ford of union workers.** Neither is communism the way to go. Increasingly in this country, it is hard to find the middle ground.

It has to be infuriating for you to pay 20 cents when I am paying 10, in the same country... and on the same grid! You might even say that we use the very same electrons to push stuff around -- and it costs you twice as much to rent them!

I, too, am having fun... at times.

Ken

* The truth: half (or there abouts -- if I remember it was maybe 11 of 25) of the tires on the certified replacement tire list for Explorers fail more frequently than the original equipment "evil" Firestones. The Blazer of the same era, (and even later) is the leading driver killer -- of any vehicle on the road! -- despite the huge advantage it has in terms of mass over tiny little cars that are, in fact, much safer. So, is the Explorer all bad? No.

** I've had the experience of going through plant gates (at an on-strike plant staffed by replacement workers and management) guarded by retired Navy Seals with machine guns. Unnerving.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

01/11/2007 10:23 PM

Ken:

I too can launch into some rants at the drop of a hat or even at times just the sight of one (Don't get me started on public schools for instance) but I do my best to temper those inclinations, and its not always easy ... (chuckling here) which is one reason I give Seaplaneguy a "hard" time, but I think he understands that.

I have no doubt that a peer-reviewed study at UC Berkely would prove that very thing about Republicans. As for me, I am adrift from all party labels as I no longer know what they mean ... I used to think I knew what they stood for, but not anymore, so my own views exist floating in some cloud, devoid of any label. Yet I confess to feeling some measure of disappointment and even anger over what my former political label has come to represent. I am sure I am not alone in this feeling, as many on either side of the political aisle feel at least somewhat betrayed.

I blame Ford for the whole Explorer episode, and the Detroit automakers in general, not the tire people. Mounting a big passenger car body high up on a pickup truck chassis and suspension! I have been disappointed in the engineering of american cars since I first looked under the hood of a Mercedes back in the 60s, and reinforced by my first look at a cheap, "chinzy" japanese import trunk and observed that the jack and lug wrench had their locations stamped into the sheet metal and could be removed or stowed very simply whereas in my car, it required some amount of effort to remove, let alone stowed, configuring the jack parts exactly right, fiddling with wingnuts and long threaded hooked rods. I know that there were and are many very talented engineers employed, but it was the "system" of designing, manufacturing and marketing that I felt was flawed. We are still paying for our victory in WWII where we came out of the war sitting on top of the world so to speak, and let it go right to our heads. Look at the arrogance displayed by GM when they first introduced aluminum engines, FWD, (mature technologies at the time in Europe) or even the automotive diesel. You would think that the parent company of Detroit Diesel would have produced a technological marvel of a passenger car diesel engine, instead of the junk that resulted. The disappointment turned to embarrassment in the 70's and 80's, and only now is fading somewhat.

Conspiracies are always convenient whipping boys, especially when we want to avoid the effort to understand and/or appreciate all the dynamics involved. I have no doubt that people are meeting as we speak to conspire over this thing or that, but my experience in life, and knowledge of human nature and its many imperfections tells me that they will rarely succeed on any large scale over time, and will often achieve a result at odds with their intentions. While I have libertarian streaks, unfettered capitalism is no better than unfettered anything else. Some form of "harnessed" and "regulated" capitalism though seems without a doubt to be the best system so far in almost all respects. There are few if any easy answers to any large issue. All the talk of oil company and/or energy compnay conspiracies misses the central point: We are an energy intensive society, and the source of most of that energy is fossil fuels, and the massive investments in infrastructure that accompany this. You don't need any conspiracies to explain the forces at work. We as individuals, people in general, and certainly corporations all act in their perceived best interests. Unfortunately, one of the negatives of our (or any for that matter) political system is that it is unduly influenced by powerful special interests with plenty of money to "spread around. An extreme example might even be "The war on drugs": Have you ever seen such a successful agricultural price support system? And so much money "righteously" spent achieving it? Meanwhile our enemies take advantage of it to earn money for themselves, while we go about the countryside in foriegn countries spraying herbicides, alienating the local farmers etc etc even as our own population provides the market incentive for them to grow the stuff in the first place. (I am in no way in favor of drug use, I just feel that once you make something illegal, you forfeit the ability to control it. This particularly applies to prostitution, alcohol and other drugs, which all are intertwined in the human condition from the earliest times.)

I believe in the old saying: "God, grant me the strength to change the things in my life that I can, to accept those things that I can't change, and the wisdom to know the difference".

The thing that worries me the most is our horrendous balance of trade deficits. In at least some ways, a case can be made that our standard of living is being "subsidized" by much of the rest of the world. One measure we use to gauge the "strength" of our economy is retail sales, conveniently ignoring the fact that so much of the sales were imported products, that we essentially paid for with "unearned" (from a trade perspective) dollars. We have very literally moved from the world's largest creditor to its largest debtor, and to an extent that boggles the mind. As long as it is in the best interests of the countries of the world to keep accepting our dollars, denominate oil prices and pay for oil in dollars (which recycles them), and use them as a reserve currency to back their own, we will continue to "prosper", but sooner or later, this shell game will likely collapse unless we start "earning our way" again.

It doesn't infuriate me to pay so much for electricity because I lived here when the die was cast so to speak. It is basically the result of politicians capitalizing on an ill-informed populace and to a lesser extent the shifting regulations for nuclear plant construction from the federal government that caused many delays and redesigns of parts of the Shoreham Nuclear Plant. Just prior to the start of construction, the Long Island Lighting Company was rated as one of the best run fossil fueled utilities in the country, and we enjoyed the lowest rates from oil fueled power plants. I have related this tale in other posts so I won't go on further here. Suffice to say, part of my rates is to pay off the notes on a plant that once finished, was then torn down. the politicians had the people here believing that they "could stick it to the shareholders", and we wouldn't have to pay a nickel. Of course, the laws of New York State (and most if not all other states) require that the debts of a public utility are honored, (and paid by the customers) and backed by the credit of the State itself. So default was never an option, but people here embraced the idea, so the plant was torn down. Had they known we would have to pay for it regardless, the outcome would have been different. The last factors in high rates are NIMBYism, and the fact that unlike in many other states, utilities here pay property taxes, which at our tax rates is substantial. So that is included also.

Anyway Ken, fun or not, I have spent enough time here for now.

Greg

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#29
In reply to #26

Re: Hydrogen economy is another Hoax

06/13/2009 10:10 PM

Dear Greg G

God has already given us all, much needed tools and environment. It is now for us to find path and move on. Like an ant we all search our brain food in small discoveries and only some of us and sometime unexpectedly hit on elephantine ideas. All that we can do, move out and keep wandering till we find something we think we were looking for.

Do it single, or in a team, but remain busy experimenting and that is what God ever wants us to do. Just observe, experiment and learn to be an expert in small way. It is for others to say that you did something big, and one should not attach too much value to it. Your being on earth is important as God has built this great Universe and then brought you in it to experience and feel. Just feel it and you will know the purpose of God and his relationship with you. No one else can build an Universe for you. You are here to watch the very big experiment of God and if you like then do something small here yourself too.

NSF has reported that some 14700 years ago O-18 was higher and later in short small 14500 O-16 became higher in the environment making northern area of earth greener. Moisture to northern reason came only after this change which brought monsoon to North. If this is a cyclic change then once again North will become dry and South will be a greener place where people will live in next cycle. H2O is the real power of the nature and it is becoming unstable unpredictable. Have a look at

http://www.nsf.gov/news/mmg/media/images/abrupt_climate1_h.jpg

Our hold on Hydrogen is much required for power, living, surviving and any small step is worth appreciating. Keep trying even just for fun and you may end up with something big worth counting.

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