Login | Register

Previous in Forum: Heat Transfer Questions   Next in Forum: Flue gas parameters
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







12 comments
Participant

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2

Atomic Vibrations

10/21/2009 8:31 AM

Is it possible that in matter, which contains one mole of atoms, that the atoms in matter can vibrate at different frequency at a time?????????

Send to a friend Digg this Add to del.icio.us
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
2
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: El Lago, Texas, USA
Posts: 2348
Good Answers: 51
#1

Re: vibration of atom

10/21/2009 9:45 AM

If I remember my high school chemistry, the answer is yes, if the atoms are at different temperatures.

Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3357
Good Answers: 82
#2

Re: vibration of atom

10/21/2009 10:40 AM

Well, yes. Consider the previous good answer, and Google space shuttle tile. You should see one part (the red hot one) vibrating like crazy, while the other part (dark) isn't.

__________________
"If you aren't gonna shovel coal, keep your hands off the train whistle!" - Jr. Zirk
Guru

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Placerville, CA (38° 45N, 120° 47'W)
Posts: 1556
Good Answers: 43
#3

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/21/2009 11:05 PM

If the matter is in liquid or gaseous form, I have the impression that the molecular temperatures (dependent on velocities) follow a Gaussian distribution. I see no reason why the vibrations in a solid should be any different.

So I believe the answer is yes.

__________________
Hopefully, by quoting no one, I am offending no one.
2
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5307
Good Answers: 28
#4

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/21/2009 11:25 PM

Heck yes! In fact, the electrons of the atoms are all over the map regarding energy levels... Same with the nuclei.

In fact, it would be very difficult to achieve a mole of a substance where all of the atoms were at the same state... Got a really large femto-second pulsed laser array?

__________________
The betrayal of innocence is always worth a laugh. - Lucious Prn
Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 347
Good Answers: 32
#8
In reply to #4

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 11:04 AM

GA. For all the atoms or molecules in a sample to behave identically (as in all vibrating at the same frequency), would seem to me to require a very complicated external control mechanism to keep them all at exactly the same temperature, and to keep all the electrons in fixed energy states. You might also find that you had to control the orientation of the molecules. My guess that something like that could be approached if the sample was held at a temperature close to zero degrees Kelvin, which would surely require a complicated external control. Limited randomness (within a Gaussian distribution) seems to be a basic natural property. So the answer would be that it is almost impossible for all the atoms in matter to vibrate at the same frequency. If you did succeed in this you might find the sample has unusual magnetic properties.

Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1408
Good Answers: 76
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 3:58 PM

Hi,

"same temperature" ?

Temperature is only equivalent to velocity and related collision frequency that usually cannot be observed as too high in frequency.

orientation: yes, this is the basis of NMR anylysis, first orienting along a common direction, then bring most spins to be parallel, then observe the relaxation process and gyroscopic motion (frequency) in a powerful magtnetic field.

So, which vibrations are asked here?

RHABE

Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1408
Good Answers: 76
#5

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 3:08 AM

Hi,

do you really talk about atomic (electrons bound to atoms) vibrations - answered above- or molecular vibrations (atoms bound by forces/stiffnesses into molecules)?

Two-atomic molecules can only vibrate in the stretching mode, but three-atomic have stretching and torsional modes.

This is true for a gas of the stuff.

Solid, liquid, plasma have many more vibration modes.

RHABE

Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 5307
Good Answers: 28
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 3:15 AM

They may only be bouncing in the stretching mode, but you can find a lot of different "stretching" energy levels through the mole of the element (or compound).

__________________
The betrayal of innocence is always worth a laugh. - Lucious Prn
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
Posts: 1408
Good Answers: 76
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 3:53 PM

"stretching energy levels" ?

Hi,

is this quantised as in Balmer/Rydberg spectral lines of excited electrons hopping back to nonexcited orbit? Which frequencies, wavelengths?

RHABE

Commentator

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 75
Good Answers: 3
#7

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 8:47 AM

Sure. That's the basis for IR analysis of organic materials. The frequency of vibration depends on the energy provided, bond type (covalent single, double, triple), and mass of the group vibrating (S-H bond, C=C-H group, etc. look in Infrared Correlation Chart No.1 and no. 2 in any CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.

Of course, that's for organic MOLECULES, which are composed of atoms.

If you are talking plasma, or even a mole of , say, argon gas at any normal pressure and temperature, the atomic vibration is related to degrees Kelvin. I believe that's actually the definition of temperature, if you were to check it out.

Score 1 for Good Answer
Guest
#11

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 4:00 PM

Most definitely the atoms each have their own energy level. The temperature of 1 Mole of any substance is the weighted average of the individual atomic activities. In the case of a gas, you can build a hilsch vortex tube and separate the hot molecules from the cooler ones. (lets you heat the coffee and chill the soda with the same device.)

2
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA/Europe
Posts: 4176
Good Answers: 73
#12

Re: Atomic Vibrations

10/22/2009 6:25 PM

Hi rupes,

It is a fact. There is movement all the time, and as I understand it the valances have to stay very close to optimal. So when I substance is moved by light or anything else these valances have to keep rectifying, that may be one way a vibration is continuously varying. In a stiff solid the atoms cannot move but can still vibrate. Which kind of begs the question, "is anything really 'solid"?

Relevant to 'now' and the greenhouse effect is that CO2 actually vibrates driven by IR and it has two frequencies, one for bending, and one for stretching.

This is my 'second wave' of physics and I find it amazing to think most atoms can absorb IR and so worsen the greenhouse effect.

http://chem.pdx.edu/~wamserc/CH399S97/Notes3.htm

Bonds can vibrate, with a frequency that matches that of infrared radiation, and

absorption of IR causes a bond to increase its vibrational energy.

CO2 has four distinct vibrations: 2 stretching modes and 2 bending modes

an IR spectrum shows which wavelengths are absorbed

for CO2, absorptions at 15 µm (bending) and 4.2 µm (stretching)

most molecules have bonds that can vibrate on absorbing IR radiation, and thus

can contribute to the greenhouse effect (e.g., CH4, H2O, NO).

Some molecules do not absorb IR radiation (symmetric diatomics like O2 and N2)

Individual atoms don't absorb IR radiation (no bonds to vibrate, e.g., Ar)

==============================================

https://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/search?session_query_ref=rbs.queryref_1256249902381&COLLECTIONS=hw1&JC=sci&FULLTEXT=%28one+AND+mole+AND+of+AND+atoms%2C+AND+that+AND+the+AND+atoms+AND+in+AND+matter+AND+can+AND+vibrate+AND+at+AND+different+AND+frequency%29&FULLTEXTFIELD=lemcontent&RESOURCETYPE=HWCIT&ABSTRACTFIELD=lemhwcompabstract&TITLEFIELD=lemhwcomptitle

  1. Science Magazine17 Jul 2009 ... excited but also the atoms themselves can vibrate and rotate, leading to a multitude of .... cisely defined frequencies to coherently drive ... et al. but is applied to a rather different mole- ... in exploring exotic quantum phases of matter ... and one "complete" allele, the latter of which ...
    https://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/322/5899/203.pdf - Similar -

Take care

__________________
Take care, bb ----- >> "HEAR & you FORGET <-> SEE & you REMEMBER <-> DO & you UNDERSTAND" << =$=|O|=$= >> "Common Sense is Genius dressed in its Working Clothes" << <> [Ralph Waldo Emerson]
Good Answer (Score 2)
12 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

babybear (1), bhankiii (1), dkwarner (1), Guest (1), johnfotl (1), Mag (1), RHABE (3), TVP45 (1), vermin (2)

Previous in Forum: Heat Transfer Questions   Next in Forum: Flue gas parameters
You might be interested in: Lasers, All Types, Radiation Detectors, Spectrometers, All Types