Previous in Forum: New Monitor, Old Toolmaking Machine   Next in Forum: Multimedia PC
Close
Close
Close
13 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Active Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13

Mobile phone threat?

10/21/2009 11:48 AM

Why do we have to turn off our mobile phones on a plane?

Register to Reply
Pathfinder Tags: aircraft Danger mobile phone
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: nj,usa
Posts: 1253
Good Answers: 33
#1

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/21/2009 12:01 PM

1 - the phone can interfere with the plane's instrumentation

2 - they want you to use the sky phone because they make good money on it

__________________
CARPE CRUSTULORUM!
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13
#4
In reply to #1

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/21/2009 4:27 PM

The Sky phone thing, I understand but I'm an avionics engineer and I can't imagine any built in system being adversely affected by a 1/4 watt radio transmitter!

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/21/2009 9:49 PM

"I can't imagine any built in system being adversely affected by a 1/4 watt radio transmitter!" So, We're going to take turns using our phones?

How about 150 or more individual 1/4 watt radio transmitters? Would you want to fly into San Diego in the rain, at night with that much RF energy radiating from inside your aircraft? Not me!

Keep the damn things turned off.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: nj,usa
Posts: 1253
Good Answers: 33
#7
In reply to #4

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/23/2009 8:09 AM

Not saying that I agree, just what "they" say.

__________________
CARPE CRUSTULORUM!
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Glen Mills, PA.
Posts: 2385
Good Answers: 114
#2

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/21/2009 12:29 PM

I don't know, but I'm damned glad they do, I'm ready to deck some of the loud voiced plonkers speaking to their phones in the supermarket, on the train, in restaurants, even in the movies. Cell phones should be handed in at the door, like the side irons in saloons in the old westerns.

__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/21/2009 4:22 PM

Not a satisfyingly technical answer but oh, how I agree! The worst I ever experienced was in a snooker club I used to be a member of. How annoying, when your opponent is about to take a shot and HIS phone rings. Obviously he stops playing instantly and you stand around like a spare wheel while he discusses something of transcendent unimportance with his wife/girlfriend.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#6

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/23/2009 12:35 AM

This reminds me of "microwave in use" signs in restaurants, supposedly to keep from interfering with pacemakers. Sounds like baloney, but then...?

One would hope that airplane control devices would operate with hard wiring at sufficient volts and amps as to swamp any effects from milliwatt radiators. But I don't know if that is the case. (Radios interfere with other radios and possibly with computers, but my toaster never seems to notice.)

On the other hand, it makes sense that such small devices might interfere with low-energy avionics such as loran or satnav receivers, control tower communications, or even the movie sound system. (If the sound system is more robust than the controls, well good grief.)

Funny thing is, I have not yet encountered any reasonable explanation, although additive effects (per lynlynch) might matter. Maybe ""electronic interference"+aviation" might Google something up....

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
2
Anonymous Poster
#8

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/24/2009 2:35 AM

Lots of answers here touching on issues of interest, but some wrong answers and no one mentioned the real issue. It is the FCC, not the FAA that forbids aerial cell phone use. The reason is that at altitude and speed, the cell phone reaches many towers simultaneously, confusing the system. Some European airlines are allowing cell phone use, and the way they do it is to provide a cell "tower" in the plane, which then communicates via satellite to the ground. I heartily agree with those who don't like this on the basis of having to listen to loud personal conversations, but that is not a technical issue.

Although some FAA types may claim that cell phones might cause interference with aircraft systems, this is simply not the case. The low power transmitters could only cause interference to an in-band (same frequency) aircraft communications system, and those don't exist. Any non-antenna connected aircraft system critical to the continued safe flight and landing of the aircraft (verbatim FAA terminology) will be qualified to levels of electric field intensity representative of tens to hundreds and even thousands of Watts of transmit power, depending on frequency. At cell phone frequencies, the qualification test performed uses a 200 Watt microwave amplifier connected to a horn antenna with much higher gain than the omnidirectional stub attached to your cell phone sub-Watt transmitter.

In conclusion, the issue with cell phones on aircraft is problems with the system of cell towers, not the host aircraft.

emc_c

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Active Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/24/2009 1:20 PM

A splendid answer and one that rings true with my own engineering experience. When I was an avionics engineer on anti submarine seakings; we used to carry out a thing called a "Tempest Test". This ensured that no system transmitted when it shouldn't and all systems only transmitted on their proper frequencies. Also no system conflicted with any other (Intermediate frequency crossover in heterodyne systems etc.)

I rather revealed my ignorance of cell phone systems though, didn't I?

Thanks very much.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Tube Amps Only Please!

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Los Angeles, California USA
Posts: 553
Good Answers: 1
#10

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/24/2009 3:47 PM

The phone puts out enough RF to interfere with all of the wiring on the plane. The second reason is some of those Flight Attendants can be pretty tough and it is a federal Rap.

__________________
Regards, Maveric Manic - 'Knowledge is Power and Wisdom is knowing how to use it'
Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
2
Anonymous Poster
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/24/2009 11:55 PM

This is a very long post, because the post to which this message replies makes an error that is very commonplace and needs dispelling, at least amongst the engineering community. If you're not an engineer, this post will bore you and or lose you. Fair warning.

Strictly speaking, wiring is not interfered with. Wiring is a passive conductor, and it cannot be "upset." What can be upset is electronic circuits at the ends of those wires. At frequencies where cables are a half-wavelength long or less, the longer the cable, the more efficient it is at collecting radiated rf energy. The relationship of wavelength to frequency is given by either of the two following equations, which are equivalent; usage is by convenience:

wavelength = 300/frequency in MHz;

wavelength = 0.3/frequency in GHz.

So the cables pick up more than the short wire runs in an equipment enclosure. Further, although sensitive critical circuits will have their signals run on shielded cables, a flexible braided cable shield is nowhere near as effective as the shielding provided by the solid metal equipment enclosures at the end of the cables.

The above analysis is true below 400 MHz, with 400 MHz having a wavelength of 75 cm, or a half-wavelength of 37.5 cm, just over a foot. But cell phones today operate around 1.875 GHz, with a half-wavelength of 8 cm, or about three inches. So the cables aren't a much better pickup at these frequencies than the wire runs in an equipment enclosure, except for the difference in shielding. Further, once a cable or wire is a half-wavelength long, the pickup efficiency of that wire decreases with the square of increasing frequency.

Bottom line: you never pickup more than when the wire is one half-wavelength long. Some very simple relations can be used to predict the coupling to a wire from a cell phone.

The first relation yields the electric field intensity from a source of known power and antenna gain. The second relation predicts the current induced on the shield of a cable due to that electric field immersion. A last relationship is used to get from the induced common mode shield current to a common mode potential induced in the circuits protected by that shield.

The electric field intensity E (V/m) at a distance r (meters) from an rf power source P (Watts) and some numeric gain G is:

E = sqrt(30*P*G)/r

In order to illuminate 8 cm of wiring, we have to be roughly 8 cm back from the wire, assuming the cell phone has an omnidirectional pattern. That gives us both r = 0.08 m, and G = 3.28 (very worst case estimate for a quarter wave stub over an infinite ground plane). Further assume cell phone power output is 1 Watt, which is also very conservative. That yields an estimated field intensity

E = sqrt(30*1*3.28)/0.08 = 124 V/m

That's a pretty big number, but the second relationship is that the current induced on a cable shield, as mounted in a typical aircraft , is 1.5 mA per Volt per meter of illuminating field intensity. That works out to 186 mA of current, and that current is riding on the shield of the cable.

Current riding on the outside of a perfect cable would stay on the outside, but real cable shields aren't perfect. Because of the braid, current on the outside can "porpoise" into the inside and couple to the protected wiring. High quality cable shields provide an inner foil liner to protect against that coupling: the foil doesn't have a braid and doesn't allow that coupling mode. One might ask why not just use the foil shield, but it doesn't work well at lower frequencies, plus it is fragile all by itself.

Anyway, all shields have a transfer impedance, which is the ratio of the voltage induced in the protected inner conductors relative to the current on the shield itself. A crummy cable shield at cell phone frequencies might have a transfer impedance of 1 Ohm per meter, but we are only interested in the first 8 cm of that meter, so that we are looking at 80 milliohms of transfer impedance. Multiplying 80 milliohms by 186 mA yields 15 millivolts.

Now that is a common mode signal. Depending on wiring configuration, and common mode rejection, or the lack thereof, some fraction of that 15 mV will be interpreted as a real signal by a circuit at the end of the illuminated cable. 15 mV will upset no digital databus. It could interfere with a low-level analog system, but safety critical signals at these levels are not run on long cables through the aircraft. The cables that carry important signals long distance are either digital buses or discretes.

If you think about it, it would be lousy system engineering to have as complex and valuable a system as an aircraft relying on piping safety critical data at levels in the millivolts down long runs of cables. For lots of reasons, such as crosstalk from the 400 cycle power feeders that run all through aircraft.

People who claim that commercial airliners built by huge concerns such as Boeing and Airbus could be brought down by millivolt interference levels ought to stop and think about what they are really saying. The post to which this is a reply did not make that claim, just that the cell phones could cause interference through wire coupling. But others have taken that same position and made quite startling claims about the safety or lack thereof of flight relative to high intensity radiated fields (HIRF).

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Anonymous Poster
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/24/2009 11:57 PM

Sorry, forgot to sign that last post.

emc_c

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Mobile phone threat?

10/26/2009 6:37 PM

Well, I reckon you got a good pass in your finals! It's like having an encyclopedia write to me! All your postulations are relevant but your figures (as you point out) are a little wild. Who might conceivably market a 1 Watt cell phone these days? A thoroughly well thought out reply.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (3); lyn (1); maveric_manic (1); not so smart (2); passingtongreen (1); The Artificer (4); Tornado (1)

Previous in Forum: New Monitor, Old Toolmaking Machine   Next in Forum: Multimedia PC

Advertisement