42° 19' 53" N / 83° 2' 44" W Detroit

GA to you. For the concept, at least. Simple, commonsense approach.

He's farther north than you are south of the equator.

I have a place at 43.56°N and it gets VERY cold there. I never go there in the wintertime.

Thanks for the reply! I was thinking about implementing that same process. There were a few things that came to mind when I started planning it out.

• I would have to make sure that I didn't constantly have water in the system due to the freezing temps here in Michigan at night.
• I currently have a storage tank to hold the heated water after it is circulated through the boiler that would need to be modified to accept the water being heated with the solar panel(s) - The tank also contains the thermostat which tells the boiler whether or not to turn on and begin circulating.
• Going into the winter will be the hardest part in making sure that my pipes don't freeze during circulation.

It still appears as a very plausible solution that I am definitely going to look into in reducing my natural gas consumption for my production boiler. Does anyone think that this would also be a viable option for my secondary floor heat boiler, since it would have to be ran obviously when it is quite cold outside? What kind of temps could the water/solution reach? Here is a link to a different thread where I discussed increasing the efficiency of this boiler. I am currently looking in a commercial wood burning unit to replace this one, but obviously the solution still needs to get heated regardless of what heats it.

Don't forget the advertising aspect. Consumers love it when we show your initiative, so advertise loud and wide that you are using 'Green' energy at your business. You might also get come tax breaks from the govt or they might subsidize your project.

Just think, if everyone did this how much energy we would save across the country. When I was in Turkey, almost every roof had a water heater unit. It was easier there because of the latitude, but any delta T you get from the sun is that much you don't have to pay for!

Drew

You're exactly right! We would definitely advertise the green aspect of things far and wide. The biggest problem with the car wash industry is that they work along the lines of: "that's how we've always done it" mentality. There have been some great innovations in the industry, but nothing that has been talked about reducing the everyday expenses that we as operators incur.

Seen this? While you don't need to get your water that hot, it should give you a good idea how effective solar water heaters can be when properly designed.

I built these D.I.Y Solar hotwater panels.
Del

DVader1000 - Since I am stuck in China right now, I am not able to view the youtube video. I will have to check it out once I get back home. Can you give me a quick synopsis of what it's about?

Del the Cat - Very nice installation! How well do you think a system similar to yours would do in the winter with an antifreeze solution being pumped through it? It's pretty obvious that with a well insulated system, you could get some pretty hot water/antifreeze in the summer, my concern and most energy savings would be if I could utilize this system to work in the winter. Thoughts?

Yeah, if I could isolate it from the central heating I'd have filled it with antifreeze and run it through the winter....in fact I'm considering modifying it to run that way. It's basically down to how much sunshine you get, if the panels are hotter than the water in the tank it will help, you could always use something like that to heat up a sort of pre heater tank which feeds the final heater, that way any temperature rise above ambient will be helping. It just needs some control system to only pupm when the panels are hot.

Del

That's what I was thinking about doing. If I set it up with a single control system based on the temperature inside of the panels, then I should be fine. Like you said, even as a pre-heat phase, this could still help to reduce the amount of time that my boiler would have to run. Do you know how I could test the properties of my glycol solution to see if it is still in its "useable" state?

Do you know how I could test the properties of my glycol solution to see if it is still in its "useable" state?
Chemistry's not my thing...I'm a Cat for pities sake
Del

LOL! Point taken! Having bought the wash from the original owner with poor record keeping, I have no idea if it's even been changed once since it was originally installed.

I am not sure what you use glycol for, but you should be able to see if it is good by checking the specific gravity. They sell devices that look like turkey basters in auto parts stores with lots of small balls that float. You look at the measurements marked on the side of the tube and it shows the glycol content, some merely show the approximate freezing point.

Glycol is hazardous to the environment, but I was assured by the military evironmental compliance section that it is safely broken down in a sanitary sewer system. As long as your waste water outlet does not go into a storm drain system you should be safe.

Hope this helps

Drew

If you use fractional distillation so that you recover almost pure glycol with only minimal contaminants, then it's almost as good as new.

It is a costly process though.

The guy used a fresnel lens to focus sunlight to heat water to boiling point for distillation in mere minutes. Simply by adjusting the focal point of the lens, you would be able to heat the water up to your desired temperature quickly without boiling it. Alternatively, you could heat the water close to boiling point, and then dilute it with cold water to your desired temperature. And the best part of it is that because the system can be used for distillation, you can recycle your water.

Sounds interesting. It seems as though this would still be a viable option, even here in the "great white north". Making sure the unit was properly sealed would be a large part of it, but I think that it could be done fairly easily and with a little bit of care. Thanks!

Good lord, at that latitude I would think that the cost of the system would overwhelm the benefit.

However, check your yellow pages under solar and see if anyone installs solar systems in your area for hot water.

If they do, get an estimate for the install and an estimate of cost savings. If you have too much time on your hands you can DIY your own system and reduce some of the cost. However, I would start at a worst case analysis and see how long it takes to pay for the system. I doubt it will pay back in less than 5 years.

If nobody installs solar in your area, guess what? That's probably a hint that it won't work well enough to justify the cost and maintenance.

I'm in Florida and I have not seen solar hot water on any car wash. I have it for my pool. It helps, but it isn't a panacea and we have over 300 warm sunny days a year. Also, the angle of solar incidence is much higher than Detroit. For pools we use something that looks like a large 4' X 8' black plastic mat with internal tubes running long way across the mat. 3" black PVC piping runs along the top and bottom.

Freezing would be a big issue for you and the system probably will not produce heat most of the year. Detroit averages 183 sunny days per year. I would consult a solar specialist in your area if they exist.

Thanks for your reply. There are people that install and use solar here in Michigan. There is actually a large government push with monetary incentives to move commercial properties to alternative energy. I'm not looking to replace my natural gas or electric by any means, just some alternative ways to help me reduce my largest expense. Make sense?

I am heading home from China this week and I plan on meeting with several solar/alt energy companies out at my site to see what kind of options they propose would be viable for my setup. They will be salesman though and I am aware of that, that is why I am here checking with you guys to see what makes sense.

You are on the right track. Remember, these guys eat based on what they sell, but at the same time they also know the business. Be skeptical and verify any claims. Ask for names of customers that they have served.

In the end, the decision you make must make financial sense for you! That is, if a system costs $10,000 (I use $10K just as an example) you expect a certain rate of return on your investment. You are a businessman, right?

If that hypothetical rate of return is low I would take that same $10,000 and invest it in something else (stocks, bonds, venture capital loan, whatever) that has a higher rate of return. The bottom line is that any cash that you have in your hands that you have available for investment should earn you the highest dividend possible. That may be a solar system, but it may be a CD or something else completely different, too!

Don't get stuck on solar, think about the rate of return. In an ideal world any business investment should pay for itself in one year. If it pays for itself in one year (or less) it is a "must buy" scenario. After one year that investment becomes a money printing machine; essentially a cash cow. If that investment takes more than one year to pay itself off, then look for another place to invest your money first.

Yeah, I know about the incentives out there, but remember, those incentives are there because some politician has some dream (mostly unsubstantiated) that they can transform the world with magic beans that they bought from some salesperson (lobbyist) on the way to the market. Those beans may not be rooted in reality. Honestly, this isn't the best place to ask the questions you have. What business organizations do you have around you? Chamber of Commerce? I'd be looking locally to see what other businesses and associations might be able to tell you.

Me, I run a small business, too, so in a sense I understand where you are coming from and want to be clear about how I perceive you should approach the problem. That is, look carefully at it as an investment and try to accurately determine the real return on that investment over time. Armed with that information, your decision should be obvious.

Everything you said makes perfect sense.

In respect to talking to the salesman, I am going to get them on site to pick their brain a little bit. The basic alternative energy concept is pretty straightforward, and I want these companies to take a look at what I have and make recommendations as to what things would be beneficial. I enjoy building/creating different things at the car wash and I'm not afraid of a little hard work if it will save me money in the end. Any of the alternative energy projects will be built and installed by me and my father-in-law.

In my opinion, necessity is one of the keys to innovation, and when I received a utility bill last year for almost $4k in the middle of winter, I knew that it was time to do some research and see what I could do to lower my expenses.

Ethylene glycol cannot be used for safety concerns.

Propylene glycol has also been found to be environmentally damaging (removes O2 from water) and regulations are currently being explored for it's safe use.

Calcium chloride is relatively safe but highly corrosive to steels and copper. Threaded pipe with plastic liners should hold up well.

Good luck

Germany, one of the global leaders in solar energy has a more poor solar resource than Southern Ontario, which is probably about the same resource as the location where this car wash is located.

According to some of my contractors (I design and manage installation of renewable energy systems - like this one: http://villagetechnologies.ca/downloads/VTCaseSolarLaundry.pdf), who have done solar installs on car washes, the water is not heated in the summer time... So that may explain why there's no solar water heating on car washes in Florida - is the water heated at all?

If you don't want to use glycol, you can use a drain back system that only sends water into the panels when they are warm enough to do anything.

Depending on your current fuel and the incentives in your area, you could get 10% - 30% ROI based on our experience with other large volume water users (laundromats and food prep locations)