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Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/14/2009 12:51 PM

Our water is treated by the water company - the pH is 7.5 with 7-8 grains of hardness. We have problems with the plumbing fixtures corroding and the surface being eaten away. We have a tankless water heater. We have wall jets in one bath and we need to maintain water pressure for these.

  1. What can we do to prevent this problem?
  2. Do we need a descaler?
  3. or do we need something else entirely?

We've read the information about the ScaleBlaster and discounted that as a solution. There are several other products that we have looked at:

  1. Pelican Filtersorb claims the following: "causes a physical change of the minerals. Operating on principles of polarity, the calcium and magnesium are attracted to each other rather than attaching to pipes and other surfaces. The system does not add any chemicals to the water . ... the catalytic granules are made to be non-sacrificial" Approx. cost $1300 (with extra needed for something to prevent loss of pressure)
  2. nuvoH20: " uses an organic compound or chelant and binds with the hard water minerals, inactivating the ions so that they cannot react with other elements or ions to produce precipitates or scale. .... " cost "600, replace cartridge every 6 months, ($50); no loss of pressure
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#1

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/14/2009 10:43 PM

If the analysis of your water is correct you have near perfect water. It should not be causing unusual corrosion. Redo the analysis just to be sure.

Electrolysis can cause rapid and unusual corrosion. I'd be suspicious of appliances connected to the water system and the possibility of defective wiring.

If no other easy answers show up engage the services of a really competent electrician to determine that there are not electrical currents working in your piping system caused by defective electrical circuit grounds attached to your house piping.

Ed Weldon

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/15/2009 10:52 AM

Thank you. I didn't see any grounds to cold water pipes. Is there anything I should be looking for?

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/15/2009 12:27 PM

I'm not an electrician and have only a passing knowledge of grounding from my experience as a mechanical engineer. Certainly not the experience needed to give you good specific recommendations. Poor connections in the grounding circuits of any water using appliance can send stray electrical currents into the water system either via the metal pipes themselves or the water if the minerals in it give it high conductivity.

Here's another possibility: Only certain mineral ions in water contribute to hardness. I don't think common salt, sodium chloride, is part of the measure for water hardness(IIRC). But chlorides are highly corrosive to metals. They also substantially increase the electrical conductivity of the water, which would facilitate an electrolysis problem if that is what you have.

You could also be having simple local electrolysis from dissimilar metals used in the plumbing acting together with highly conductive water as a battery. A common type of plumbing fitting is an insulating pipe union used in such situations where brass and zinc galvanized steel pipes or components like valves are connected together. The advice of a plumber with experience in local codes and water conditions may be helpful here.

You don't say where you live. In many parts of the world salt water intrusion from ocean waters into overdrawn municipal water sources is a common occurrence. We have this problem in parts of California. But generally the folks that manage water systems stay on top of this issue. And if that is the case in your situation there are probably complaints about the taste of the water and perhaps lesser corrosion issues from your neighbors.

In general I'd be skeptical of any offers to sell you expensive water treatment equipment. It's real easy to throw your money away on such approaches. There is a lot of genuine expertise that goes into selecting the right water treatment methods for unusual domestic water supply problems. I've been down that road with my rural home and it's wells.

Ed Weldon

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/15/2009 8:00 PM

We live near Columbus Ohio. We will try a good electrician and see where that takes us on the grounding issue. Thank you for your input.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/15/2009 8:08 PM

GA Ed,

Houses constructed in the late seventies and eighties were often piped with a substandard grade of copper tubing. There are literally thousands of homes that were constructed using this copper that are having to be re plumbed through out areas where the water is a bit on the acidic side of neutral. I know that grounding fixtures and appliances to copper or galvanized pipe has been done for many years, but it only takes a little electrolysis at that connection to weaken or even stop the grounding effect.

TMF

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#2

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/15/2009 12:44 AM
  1. Pelican Filtersorb claims the following: "causes a physical change of the minerals. Operating on principles of polarity, the calcium and magnesium are attracted to each other rather than attaching to pipes and other surfaces. The system does not add any chemicals to the water . ... the catalytic granules are made to be non-sacrificial" Approx. cost $1300 (with extra needed for something to prevent loss of pressure)
  2. nuvoH20: " uses an organic compound or chelant and binds with the hard water minerals, inactivating the ions so that they cannot react with other elements or ions to produce precipitates or scale. .... " cost "600, replace cartridge every 6 months, ($50); no loss of pressure

these sound like sucker bait to me.

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#3

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/15/2009 1:18 AM

"calcium and magnesium are attracted to each other"

I didn't know calcium & magnesium are gay ions. Given that both are cations, they should repel, not attract each other.

"uses an organic compound or chelant and binds with the hard water miner"

Careful. If this is really a ligand as they claim, then you better take note that many organo-metallic compounds are toxic.

Your best bet would be to use softeners. You don't need to soften all your water, just enough to dilute your water down to an acceptable level of hardness.

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#4

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/15/2009 10:33 AM

I have to agree with both Ed Weldon, " defective electrical circuit grounds attached to your house piping", and aurizon, "these sound like sucker bait to me"

If all else fails get corrosion resistant (SS) fixtures.

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#9

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/16/2009 3:23 AM

Priority 1: Suspect out-of-code electrical installation at the facility with respect to crossed neutral and earth connections somewhere downstream of the distribution board. Investigate and remedy with all speed as there may be latent safety issues present.

Priority 2: Suspect galvanic corrosion caused by dissimilar metals being present in the piping system.

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#10

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/16/2009 11:19 AM

I would first ask the municipal water company to provide more detail chemical analysis. You should ask for enough info to calculate Langlier's Index or LI. This index is based on Ca as CaCO3 (usually), Alkalinity as CaCO3, pH, Total Dissolved Solids mg/L (or ppm), and temperature (Usually in degrees Celcius but can be calculated from Fahrenheit). You should calculate the index at many temperatures. Google Langlier index and you will find a host of sites to help you. It is also likely that the water company has similar complaints on file and may have ready answers for your problem.

As your water comes from a well you should expect fairly stabilized raw water temperature (at or near the ambient year round air temperature) and a fairly stabilized LI. However, you mentioned you are using a tankless water heater and that suggests a high variance in water temperature ( from background well temperature to near boiling temperature on the hot water side).As the water heats the ability of the water to hold calcium in solution drops and results in scaling. This scaling then can lead to galvanic corrosion. Galvanic corrosion occurs where dissimilar metals will create a small battery cell action and minerals will migrate from from an anode to a cathode with the well water acting as the bridge between. So minerals deposited by heating the water can create the galvanic cell. Generally, cold water has higher corrosive capability and hat water has higher scale forming capability.

If the corrosion is occurring on the cold water taps you can either have a very low LI or their may even be other minerals such as iron depositing inside the pipes and again setting up a galvanic cell.

Galvanic cell is the likely culpert in your corrosion of plumbing. A few things to help you would be to use dielectric unions to connect point of use HW systems. If you use dielectric unions you will need to bridge the grounding connections used for houshold grounding (check local electric codes). A second method to help reduce the corrosion is to add a coating to the plumbing such as polyphosphate. The polyphosphate will help to sequester (keep in solution) metals such as iron and manganese. Polyphosphate or PP will also create a thin molecular coating on the piping that is protective as long as you maintain the system or cartridges that provide the PP. You can purchase cartridges to install in line that contain PP at a relatively cheap cost but would have to be replaced every couple of months or so. Softening the water (particularly the water entering the hot water system) will also help.

Good Luck

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#11

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/16/2009 1:02 PM

You should also ask the water company how they chlorinate the water, either continuous injection or batch addition. In batch addition a large amount of ClO2 is added to the treated water at regular intervals. Batch treatment often results in erratic pH levels in the distribution system. The end result is a cycle where a high or low pH will strip the oxide layer from the inside of the pipe. When the pH returns to normal, the layer is rebuilt by corroding the inside of the pipe. Then the pH goes out of whack again, stripping the new layer. The cycle repeats until the pipe fails. This type of problem is usually evidenced by small pinholes in the middle of a solid piece of pipe.

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#12

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/18/2009 11:49 PM

Lots of really good answers here. You mention the surface of the fixtures corroding. What brand are the fixtures, where did you get them, how old are they? I have a Moen bath faucet just as shiny as new, ten years old. I have seen cheap fixtures go fast, thin chrome, sometimes over plastic, or pot metal. Only buy brass or stainless.

Like advised, get an independent water analysis, not from anybody selling you something besides an accurate analysis. The water company is not going to say anything bad about the water, ever.

PS Read the label on your tile cleaner. Does it say anything about damaging chrome?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/19/2009 9:51 AM

Thank you for your input - we are careful about what we use to clean. Our fixtures are Delta, Moen and Kohler. The shiney metal piece around the wall jets is less than a year old and the surface is corroding. We regularly wipe them down after use. We use cleaners that the manufacturer has suggested for the cultured granite walls that surround the corroding fitting.

We will probably go with a combination of further inquiries with neighbors, independent water analysis, and a review by an electrician.

We appreciate everyone's input and will try to update when we have more information.

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#14
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Re: Municipal Well Water Destroying plumbing fixtures

11/19/2009 10:29 AM

cultured granite can have excess alkali = corrosive.

This leads to stress corrosion cracking

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