Fluorescent Bulbs and Cold Weather Starts

The new ones you got are likely just not cold weather rated thats all. Most standard CFL's are only good down to around freezing or slightly lower. Thats no different than most standard indoor use fluorescent fixtures as well.

And just as standard fluorescent fixtures come in cold weather rated designs so do CFL's. I have found several brands of CFL's that have -30 degree ratings for the same cost as the indoor only type that most people unwittingly buy and try to use everywhere and then complain about later because they didn't work properly or burned out shortly after being installed.

Sometimes it pays to stand in the isle and read the fine print on the box first!

Thanks I will check for that. Not much selection here to choose from. One brand / type and only six tubes on the shelf, all the same. The packaing only mentions color temp 6250 no units given but assume it's Kelvin. Shouldn't take long to check it out. Maybe cold weather flourescents are available in the next big town inland in real cold weather country. Its only 900 km away or about one long day's drive. Fuel burn there and back maybe $250 worth. Damn expensive light bulb.

Thank goodness I didn't buy them. The light fixtures were given to me by someone else who did buy at Walmart. Hey if its the only store in town what choice do you have? When a Walmart moves in, the little stores die off and pretty soon it's like a company town. You can order anything you want as long as its black and our brand. Given the quality of store clerks these days I won't get my hopes up. when you ask them if they can order something in or why they only stock certain products we get told that ordering in stock is determined by somebody in Texas or wherever and the store stock whatever the computer says, not what local peopel want.

In my region of the world if your town is large enough to justify a walmart its usually already got one or more home building supply chain stores. They are the ones who will carry the different types of CFL's and fluorescent fixtures. I would never buy home fix it products from wall mart.

Walmart is mostly good just for day to day living stuff. The home building supply stores work with a different target market and thusly carry different products. The ones around here have a lighting and illumination section larger than Walmarts junk foods section!

Thats where you can find the many different brands and types of lights that do work in your intended applications and possible working conditions.

"Hey if its the only store in town what choice do you have?"

I would bet you can find the low temp bulbs online...Save you the trip and the gas...

Just a thought.

bill12780

Hey even FedEX has trouble finding us. And how do you buy online whe you do not have or use credit cards? This isn't outer suburbia. Its way out.

Use the type of card which has only the money you put on it available, some online sources will allow using electronic checks or snail mail payment too.

"Turn'em on heat'em up then leave them on all winter..."

Tried that here the last couple of years. If it gets cold enough, they will extinguish, and not come back on until they get sufficiently warm that they'd have started anyhow. This can be a week or more sometimes. We routinely see -20F (-29C) in winter, and I've seen worse than -30F. I have tried to buy cold-starting CFLs without luck, though not recently. Regular fluorescents don't work either, but there are some cold-starting electronic ballasts available. Even places that offered those didn't know where to get similarly-rated CFLs. In my [unheated barn basement] shop, I switch to an incandescent fixture for winter use over the workbench. Even at temperatures where they'll start, it can take 15 - 20 minutes to get adequate light to work with CFLs, and color is still visibly off. Heck, even the one in my bedroom can take 5 - 10 seconds to light, and won't look right for at least 10 minutes in mid-winter. I keep suits and shirts in order so that I can choose even when I can't tell color by eye. I always have at least one incandescent in any fixture over a stairwell or similar place, for safety.

I'm a little but not much south of the 45th parallel, in the banana belt of the upper Midwest

We rarely see temp less than -25° ever and then only for a short time; a day or two maybe.

I've seen enclosed and heated fluorescent fixtures in cold climate areas though and those lights were very bright. I use some LED string lights over my work bench

The wife couldn't read well but a 9LED flashlight Velcro to wing of the chair was the answer and we re-charge the batteries too.

saw this today

Thanks that is what I was looking for. Now I understand what details to look for if I have to go shopping for fixtures or bulbs.

The bottom line seems to be removal of the mercury lowers the ability for cold starting. In other words avoid EPA approved bulbs.

Regarless if the retail store is Walmart or something else, the quality of store clerks is uniformly low. When you ask them where to locate a particular kind of product they often do not know unless it is in the aisle they are resposible for. None of them understand the technical details of the products they sell. Ask them what the difference is between two almost identical products, most can't say except to point out one cost slightly more than the other. DuH! Asking such a store clerk for cold weather bulbs simply produces a blank look.

And if you buy something that has a component that can wear out and needs periodic replacement they haven'a clue where such a replacement part can be found. They normally don't sell it or even stock spare parts somewhere. I asked about spark plugs at one store that sold gasoline engine equipment. Nope, they did not carry spark plugs. Or gas caps for the tank.

Excellent answer!!! I've seen eight foot bulbs moan about starting at temps as high as 50° F. However, I never knew why. You answered that well!

It's also worth mentioning that fluorescent performance suffers if the lamps get too hot as well.

GA from me Joe.

To add to, and not to seeking to 'compete' with your post in any way;

If the OP can earth that strip it enhances the staring. Similar strips, sprung against the back of the tube, are seen in the straight tube "cold rated" fittings, each contact point about 25% in from the ends (earthed via case).

Also often, just by touching a tube your capacitance will be enough to do the strip job.

But the colder it is, the higher the trigger voltage has to be to overcome the initial resistance of the non ionized gas column. Upping the start voltage to overcome extra resistance of cold gas, means a higher ballast resistance, once it strikes. (Ohms drop dramatically when arc forms)

Ballast loss (inductive or resistive) is the big 'hidden' loss in this system.

You can make it work in extreme cold, (street lights etc.) but the law of diminishing returns applies.

So though these were Free, they are summer useful only. The winter choice is incandescent. Or to switch to LED which is the most efficient and has no cold issues.

Keep in mind that CFLs have electronic ballasts built into their bases, and the electronics don't like sub-freezing temperatures.

Same goes for LED-based lighting.

Cheers!

DZ

Do you (or anyone else here) know what kind of circuitry is actually used in 120V LED lamps? I haven't had one fail yet, so I haven't taken one apart. It obviously will be very different than that in a CFL, since the voltage required by the fluorescent is around 300V, while LEDs need around 3V each. It could be a step-down inverter, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were something simpler.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Making_a_120V_LED_C7_bulb/

I have no idea how many LEDs are in the new Phillips entry, but I suspect they use something more sophisticated than just a resistor to reduce voltage and limit current.

PWM power supply. Or other current limiting circuit. As long as the LED get more then 0.7-2V it'll turn on. Just need to make sure it get enough current and not more.

Hi DK, the LED's are in series, usually with a dropper/current limiter resistance.

Some have a diode bridge. Some a single blocking diode, or they run on half wave.

Some use 'back to back' strings, (like a tri-color circuit) but this is least efficient.

Some use a voltage regulator IC (where supply V greatly varies)

A LED is a diode, so conducts in one direction (with a small V drop) and in the other, at a threshold, it 'breaks down', like a zener, the difference is it makes light.

Provided the current is at the correct value, a string of LED's can add up to any desired supply voltage.The main 'number of LED's' thing is in running off rectified AC is you design for peak V not RMS (i.e. the 120 Vac is RMS)

Hi Ky

a few years ago I tested a defective red LED traffic light. It's still around here somewhere, but I couldn't find it just now. It had well over a hundred LEDs. As I recall, there were about 20 LEDs in each series string, with one limiting resistor for each string. All the defects were bad solder joints; the LEDs were all still good. Obviously a break anywhere in the series makes that whole set fail. Fortunately, with so many LEDs, the signal is still visible with several failed strings.

I just have the actual LED circuit board; I don't know whether there were additional components off the board.

I rather suspect there will be something more sophisticated in a commercial 120V LED lamp than just a series resistor...

Dick

Hi again DK,

20 x 5V LED's would run on 100 Vdc at whatever the mA/LED is - say 50 mA.

20 x 3 V LED's on 60Vdc

A current limiting resistor would ideally drop only a few Volts (to avoid a big Watts loss)

But LEDS have an upper current number (I ^max), so a V ^max. Therefore it is conceivable 20 could run on a higher mains supply using a slightly bigger resistor and accepting a bit higher Watts loss.

I could see this approach happening if the lights are/were retrofitted from incandescent and the LED modules are built as direct substitution for regular globes.

However - generally - traffic lights globes are/were QI, so there is a step down transformer from mains to a rated V (and tapped to run the sensor electronics)

Say the globes were 48 V (AC), it is fully conceivable the change to LED (so vastly reduced current involved) means there is 55 - 60 Vac 'no load' supply. That then rectified becomes about 80 Vdc - quite a good match for the 3V option?

Another reason for the resistor is if a LED in a string dies 'closed circuit' the V/LED rises and kills the rest.

The reason for a resistor on each string (rather than 1 resistor for all strings) is if the system has a power supply (as opposed to direct grid connection), and a string fails the system V rises to the in parallel strings. So kills them

But no, if you do your V^max and I ^max and make the string length and resistor choice correctly - nothing more tricky is usually required.

If it's AC supply - it's best pre-rectify.

A 'bonus' if you can smooth as you can run closer to V ^max so I ^max, (rather than having to allow for the little peaks and troughs in a folded sign wave, within the V tolerance).

On AC designs like the half-wave or back-to- back; LED's are cycling in luminescence with the sign wave. I.e dropping below their threshold a lot of each cycle and turned off in the negative period, so off around 80% of the time.

Elnav,

Haven't heard from you in a bit, owyergoin'.

The problem with discharge lamps of any sort is they only operate properly in a narrow range of pressures. CCFL will condense mercury out of the vapour when the temperature gets lower (to your standards of cold anyway) and if they don't get to show actual condensation of mercury metal then the distribution and vapour pressure are greatly reduced reducing the available charge carriers at the electrodes. Convertional fluoros just strike a couple more times until the pressure and the electron cloud build to useful levels. The 26mm (36 watt) tubes overheat in my climate, whereas the 32 mm (40watt in 4') tubes last well and provide an exponential difference in output (oh yeah the cost and take some sourcing).

I use CCFLs with mixed success in the tropics (CCFLs die very quickly in enclosed fittings, the more eco the quicker the die), life is nowhere near that quoted, but the light quality is good given that I use 5 X 20watt CCFL per room instead of one 100watt incandescent and I choose the fixtures to enhance the quality of output.

I don't want to go political, but we will need a return to solid state to get adequate performance in cold climates (hot climate kills incandescents too and from literature and bitter experience LED hates heat). Tungsten filaments are solid and so are LEDs.

I would try heating the electrical/electronic driver of the the lamp too. Condensation around these components will not help either, and I am not sure if they are potted.

So maybe a heating element and a temperature switch will save you some of the 1500W heater sonsumption first thing in the morning.

Going for incandecent is not a sin, when you need it you need it. Hell even acetylene lamps might be an even better choice if one expects power cuts. They used to produce quite a bit of light!!!

Good luck

Just adding my 2 cents.

First don't believe everything you read especially from a retail outlet.

Second, in my opinion, fluorescent lighting is way over hyped. Like all lighting types, it should be used when it is prudent to use them not when certain non educated talking heads tell you to do so.

"...fluorescent lighting ... should be used when ... prudent ... not when ... talking heads tell you to do so." True! Problem is, some entire COUNTRIES are phasing out incandescents by law [Australia, Canada, European Union, and the USA, though in US there's some wiggle room for "more efficient" bulbs, if some are developed]. If they had a workable substitute in place, I couldn't reasonably object; I just can't see where that substitute is, at present. CFLs don't work cold, and I have yet to see a full-power LED bulb that can be used in my home, much less in outdoor fixtures, for retail sale. On-line ones are $16 - $18 each, for 60W, and no way to know if they'll work in cold. I have at least 30 fixtures in unheated places, some of which are used once or twice a year, others used several times per week, on average. Some of those would not save money even at CFL prices, in my lifetime, even if electricity got "too cheap to meter" (remember that claim?).

Bingo - some entire countries are outlawing incandescent bulbs. When that happens what will we do for outdoor security lights? Right now there is no viable solution. the only kind of bulb that will work reliably is not allowed. Outdoor lighting that does work is prohibitively expense. Outdoor highway lights run to 500 and 1000 watts power consumption and is pointless if a 60 watt porch light is called for. It was the intent of the eco nuts to reduce consumption not increase it that led to banning incandescent light. On the subject of LED lighting. The vehicular industry jumped at using LED lights for clearance and back-up lights on cars and transport truck trailers. that is untill acident started happening. Turns out that in cold snowy countries the cold running trailer clearance lights would get blocked by snow and be not visible. Result, collisions and accidents. Solution, install an electric heater to melt the snow like the incadescent bulbs used to do. But you really don't need a heater in warm weather. So install a thermostat. Final solution was a fancy (and expensive) LED clearance light that cost more than the old filament bulb type and that consumed as much power as before, at least in cold weather. And they call that progress. So much for ecological benefits.

Halogen aren't being out lawed...

& yes they are more expensive, because of the quartz envelope

they do last longer, burn brighter & use less watts for the amount of light output

remember when you had regular incandescent head lights on you truck?

Here's some fun walmart stuff I apologize to everyone who can't stop looking

http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

Quite true! Unfortunately Halogen bulbs are not always compatible with existing light fixtures. Especially 'enclosed by glass' coach lantern style lights. The halogen tends to build up more heat which often results in broken glass. So now you need to replace the whole fixture with new. Hey! Why doesn't the new light fixture fit?

Because it's made in China and is metric you dummy!

wonder what the lumens per BTU comparison between halogen & incandescent is?

Halogen is less, though the enclosure is hotter. (a Watts/square inch thing)

Halogen is more lumen's/Watt = less heat loss/watt in.

So using lower wattage, but similar lumen output should be an acceptable even for fully enclosed fixture?

Just trying to quantify

Um- a guarded yes, but a standard globes envelope can run a lot hotter in a fixture and not suffer other than oxidation of the brass, melting of the solder and decay of the socket. So a 'yes' only applies to substitution of the equivalent lumen of the rated globe.

A second condition is the colour of the shade/enclosure, which may lead to more absorption of spectrum with the change in colour temperature. Different 'clear' glass absorb differently.

ah but what does that mean in real numbers?

most fixtures are rated for 60 or 100 watts incandescent

what would that mean for halogens?

"ah but what does that mean in real numbers?"

5000

Ok I'll do your frigging research _(homework)

There you go - "the result in 35 seconds" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

Pity LED's aren't invented yet.

ooohhh! my eyes are glazing over. After much cogitation I have decided the best cold weather lights are some stout kerosene lanterns. <VBG> for the outdoor porch light a hurricane lantern should do nicely. No electricity no hassle fill 'er up and its good to go.

No endurance in the young.

But give 'em a box of matches and accelerant, and their wide awake.

I spent my entire working life at the leading edge of technology, until I semi retired and began to work in boating related power systems. Boaters have got to be the most conservative and reactionary customers I have ever met. If the technology isn't fifty years old they are afraid to try it because it's new fangled and might not prove to be reliable.

What did you decide on for your green house heater?

I was looking at an old vacation rental at about 5000 feet of elevation.

It had propane back up lights, the mantles looked like the ones in coleman lanterns.

Here's a different sight to while away those winter hours

Now that we've solved Elnav's lighting problems how about Plumbing?

For comparison, the two CFL boxes I have on hand indicate just under 70 lumens/Watt, which would give an efficiency of just over 10%.

I no longer have the container, but I checked an LED floodlight recently, and as I recall, it had 57 lumens/Watt, which would give an efficiency of just over 8%.

A "Double Life" 40W clear incandescent I have on hand indicates only 10 lumens/Watt, which would give an efficiency of just over 1.4%.

I did some searches & watts is watts when it comes to heat output, so using a halogen in elnav's carriage light should be fine as long as it's not a bulb with a reflector

gonna cost more to buy than an incandescent, last longer & he should be able to use a lower wattage & have the same output

Dick & KY already layed out how much more efficient.