Good answer. I did not realize that there was an average human power output.

Thanks!

I did not realize that there was an average human power output available.

hi nick name,

very interesting. can you give me some references for these figures that I can bookmark? TIA!

GA. This makes sense since one HP (horse power) is ~746W. You athlete fits the expression "as strong as a horse".

See my same question at CR4 Thread: Calculating the Pumping Capacity of the Human Heart.

I suspect you will find that the most efficient way to extract work from a human is with a bicycle arrangement. I don't believe anyone has come up with a more efficient way to match the output impedance of a human to the input impedance of a machine.

Hi, again

That was really really helpfull ..thank you all for the greate answes and the comments, thank you again

lulla..

A weightlifter performing a "snatch" lift can raise about 400 pounds about 6 feet in about 1 second. This equates to 4.36 hp, but sustained for only the 1 second. I wonder if this is the highest known humanpower.

Tornado,

very interesting thought.

My thought about this is that the hp/power expended wil depend a lot on the actual time that it takes to make the lift!! If it was 0,5 seconds that is even more power, but for a shorter period, if it was 2 seconds it is only half the power but so much more diffficult to expend and control!

Thinking about that

Good idea!!

Sleepy

Look at the treadle pump designs used in india and africa- free designs available as technology transfer- through NGO's mac

The hand operated semi-rotary pump is probably one of the least energy sapping manual pumps that I have ever operated.............speaking from experience in an emergency situation, I operated one of those pumps for approx, 3.5 hours straight.

My life did not depend on an "adrenaline fired" feat.........but the lives of others did, the crew from a ship that sank after a collision a sea. I was in a motor cutter during rescue operations that had been holed in the incident......and the motor driven bilge pump had seized.........and of course time to change the pump was a luxury that was not available at that time. Also if anything went wrong with the pump it was simple to repair.

Even though in the event of a fire these pumps would rarely be effective due to failure to deliver water at high pressure..........they proved ideal for pumping bilges.

May I suggest that in your design you give thought to ease of operation............stay away from rotary design (very energy sapping)..........also from diaphragm pumps.........my experiences with this type of pump have hardly been inspiring.

Hi, I am not able to understand your ? - Human Power.

any how, in manufacturing industries we use to calculate the Manhours ( SMH - Single Man Hour ) for all the process, if your also need the same i can help u some how.

Yes, it was a sinking boat got me going, a lot happened since. Now, I claim to have the "HIGHEST OUTPUT",best performance AXIAL FLOW TURBINE PUMP which is HUMAN POWERED. [low-head],It can be hand-cranked,foot-pedalled [or motor].

The breakthrough came when I used the 'V-8 effect' --|

Starting with a "bicycle built for two" the two sets of cranks are linked @ 90* out-of-phase:::then the pedal pushers take it in turn to provide the POWER PUSH. This makes a radical difference for a machine battling a constant torque resistance. With one-man the TDC//BDC up/dn crank poisi is awkward & ineffective for pedal pushing :: requiring the musculature to push back//front ; an inefficient input.Soon exhausted.

NOW two people can do three times as much as one!

More significantly ~ the sensation ~feets-on~ this is an inter face ~human-energy to water ~one can feel the heavy slippery liquid through the mechanism ~ slip-sliding over those 'flying-foils"~ speeding through the ring ~ to the diffuser ~ on up a pipe ~ winning gravitational potential energy ~ into the reservoir // canal===pipe===>OVERBOARD

Yes/but ;with 2-people ~the sensation is 'different' :: instead of a struggle @ TDC/BDC :: help when you need it happens :: the cranks 'fly-over' : pushed by the other, mutual-assistance, serendipity, 'have a rest where previously working',a much more natural ergonomic circumstance & effective,,far more effective. A breakthrough? Has this been done before?

V-8 effect, the more cranks, the lighter the load & of course a lateral-lay-shaft with ratcheting sprockets-to-pedal pedaling positions could 'theoretically' be infinite power-input!

More on onetonpump.com & ihpva.org > forums > water > "CHALLENGE"

Pump on.

Not very clear, could you elaborate and make it more understandable? Especially interesting is the human power increase by a factor 1.5.

It's perfectly clear. My estimate that two people do three times as much as one is yet to be proven, but the point is, two cranks out of phase will give a more even torque-trace at a higher value than twice the value for one. Try it.

Sorry if it ain't easy t understand, or am I? This is ablog for the initiated & let's raise the bar. I have a lot to impart,in an obscure niche of technoessence. I've been involved with pumps & water a long time ,particularly this human-power unit, I've searched the web & find gross ignorance prevalent on this issue. Many are trying for efficient pumps, but hi-flo lo-lift, nobodys got it yet. This "ONETONPUMP" is close to optimal :: design of pumps is an art requiring the sizes / shapes / ratios / RPM to be right. You'll get it when the pictures / video happen ,or of course ,come & have a pedal on this prototype in far-off Botany Bay.

It's a new design, unique,growing from the need for an interface//machine between muscles & liquid. Proof of concept is complete, presentation of a demo is being prepared, The final product for sale is way off [finance is limited~help!]. Many variants are planned for the different circumstances envisioned. Currently the "pump on a pole" for marine use is 'on the table'.

Yes/no apology for confusing you ~ my motto is "Keep em guessing"

Means think it out for yourself,I'll offer clues. You also have the ability.

All will be revealed ~ eventually.

Humanity can be glad that you are here. But as usual I believe when I see impartial results measured and quantified.

If you want uniformity (which is not always the solution) you may use a flywheel it brings the same.

I am sorry if I do not reach the high level of your thoughts but not all of us are stars, some, as myself, are normal human beings.I consider for instance that due to law of energy conservation

1Watt+1Watt= 2Watt.

May be I am wrong and then I would very much like to understand where from the 3rd Watt comes.

Now since the human engine is limited as power availability as was mentioned above in several comments the search for efficiency is quite justified since a higher efficiency means (if I am not wrong) more power for the actual operation so that more flow at constant pressure (resistance) or more pressure (head) at constant flow. There are in fact for fluids 4 solutions as pumps principle:

- dynamic flow generation with a kind of propeller which has the disadvantage of important back-flows (axial pumps)

- dynamic flow generation by generation of an acceleration field (centrifugal pumps, called also centripetal due to a misuse of the principle the best denomination being inertial pumps since the flow tries to follow the tangent at the circumference)

- a volumetric pump which make usage of variable volumes which work alternatively in sucction and feed as piston or gear pumps (external, internal, gerotor,...)

- a volumetric pump with a variable progressive volume as for instance the 3 screws pumps or compressors (Roots and similar).

The 2 last have the advantage of less back flow but have other draws back as friction or sensitivity to viscosity.

In all cases efficiency is a must as well for low as for medium or big powers. So that I am very interested to see the NEW concept and its special aspects.

This is like a story for you & the others, who may be interested.

I am the teller for this answer to Alaa's question about "HUMAN POWER PUMP", it can be a long one as,this is the defining strand of my already long life.

My first memorie on Planet Earth ~ under the wide blue sky ~ on a beach ~ in a flooded extinct volcano caldera ~ low-tide & lots of shallow puddles on a sand bar ~ just right for jumping splashing stamping fun ~ then crouching to slap hands ~ pop-a-cupped palm sends the splash sideways ~ then experementing with fingers splayed to find the water shoots up between the fingers & in particular ::: between my fingers in the soft sensitive part I could feel the pressure of the trembling/tumbling vortices of turbulence ~ water-flow-feeling!

Ultimately I can vizualise flow & see how the 'flow between fingers' is like flow in a cascade of foils aka impeller. This story is about that.

All the hydraulic power input of a pump is supplied by the impeller[s] at the 'ring' ALL ELSE IS LOSS or GAIN OF POTENTIAL ENERGY.

The HUMAN POWER FRAME based on a bike for two, with out-of-phase-cranks is significant not because if the extra watts, but mainly for the ERGONOMICS it is easier to pedal because the 'dead-zone' for torque is attended to by your 'helper'. Mutual assistance is an enjoyable human feeling of goodwill:: mind-you, if the 'other' slacks off you will know, or powers-up to take your load. This system can be extended more riders chained one behind the other, bigger chain as power increases.

The TORQUE TRACE is a sine-curve [close enough]; zoro @ TDC ; max @horizontal crank, with foot pushing down. By adding the next out-of-phase sine curve @ 90*, the trace becomes clipped like an AC/DC rectifier curve. A wobbly line.

Rigging a dynomometer is simple & I intend to do so, as part of the pedlo-elec-gen; all you gotta do is rig a F/P permanent mag gen on bearings, so the torque is resisted by a 'torque-arm'::measurable X RPM = power. Antique engineering :: then add senders / sensors ~ load-cells + strobes =Head // flow meters =efficiency & performance curves. What you gotta know for getting the BEP.

BEP ; best efficiency means more for less & if you're working on this you'll realise that work is ultimately exhausting,,pushing those pedals against the load,continuously,huff-huff-huff! So as you get into the "red-zone" you'll be counting the 18 bearings [do they need oil?] :: looking @ the piping to see if it can be straightened out or enlarged [or even smoothed internally] & wondering weather the rate of twist in the impeller blades should be slightly less [therby 'unloading the tips] to improve the flow or lift the 'stall-point'

My hand smoothed the inner shape//surface of the fiberglass case for the turbine::my mind tells me about the travels of the molecules viscously throwing their weight about, as I practice the watermans-art, which started in those puddles. Now today, I stood on the deck of a vessle,more hydrodynamics [although, more like hydrostatics as we only worked on the monster].We 'did' the bottom recently, caressing the curves to clean & paint them for smooth slithering over the waves, all this is how I learn by experience. Trailing sticks in the water from dinghies, or trailing a hand in moving water, we all do

As a seafarer to 'landlubbers' I appeal to you to stop "MAKING A SPLASH" by chucking rocks in the water |\| boring I know:: yes//but it is erosion / siltation /fills lakes & harbours, destroys banks,clogs rivers,needs dredging STOP. & teach that to the kindy-kids.Chick an anchor on a line in, something that floats,yes splashing is fun!

Getting way off topic.

I shall send the text separate since I cannot copy from word with this browser.

Thank you for the kind answer.

According to your description your concept is a -let me use usual definition - a centrifugal pump.

May I mention that for a water flow you gain potential energy in the gravitational field if the water quantity is displaced to a higher position. So that if it flows back it is only a loss from the energy input from the impeller. This means that a higher efficiency is required in order to reduce those losses. Whichever way you turn around efficiency is for low or limited power a MUST.

Nobody contests the need for ERGONOMICS as long as the human being is involved which ever action he has to take.

If you consider the uniformity of torque as a must (in your concept there is a 0-torque zone !!!!) then it is better to have at least 3 human engines with a phase shift of 120° It would be even more ERGONOMIC than with 2 as sketch shows : (already send in a previous comment since some allow pictures but do not allow text paste and other the opposite) The non-uniformity defined as (Tmax/Tmean-1)*100 in % of Tmean is for your solution 118.47% and for the use of 3 inputs ONLY 5.24 %. Which I consider much more interesting for the result. If you make the 3 persons acting on same shaft via free-running transmissions the fact that one will not use same power as the others will be immediately felled. For that you do not need the mentioned 18 bearings (which of course should be lubricated for EFFICIENCY). Systems as you suggest were used for air since over 80 years in the WWII shelters for the ventilation circuits. According to size one or several "engines" were acting via belts on the main shaft. So that nothing new under the sun!

This is a ROTODYNAMIC PUMP with HYDRODYNAMICS.

Seeking better performance is HIGHER EFFICIENCY.

The mechanism I am using is the rwo 'riders' out-of-phase connected by a chain ~ on the front axle is an 100 tooth chain-wheel ~ with another chain to a cluster of sprokets 12-18 teeth ~ mounted on the shaft of an angle-grinder gearbox [where the disc was] ~ right-angle-bevel-gearbox::speed increase 3.3:1::change direction 90* ~ pump shaft with impeller spins.

RATIO 100/12 X 3.3 = 27.5 or 100/18 X 3.3= 18.3

So this gives a range of ratios to suit differing conditions ,set by differing head or another impeller.Fast & lower torque or slower with higher torque = same power::just like a bike on the flat fast or hill-climbing in low-gear sslower.

this mechanism can operate any pump or generator, adding 'riders' increases power & decreases the variation of the torque-trace. "The V-8 effect" is more cylinders = smoother running, same~same!

I am using an AXIAL FLOW TURBINE PUMP, a 'propeller-pump', with 12cm imp.This has a choice of two imps currently ~ low-pitch & high pitch options ~ it lifts effectively to 2m :: I am presently rigging a flow meter :: from tests conducted into a weighing-tank ,I can tell you the flow is one ton a minute or more. Early tests with me [average 175cm//75kg] did one ton up a meter in a minute :: hence the name "ONETONPUMP";;that was one man hand-cranking @ 'sprint-rate' ,we had only a 500kg tank. When tests resume I'll give you the numbers. Whatever they are, just the sight of the quantity is impressive.Using legs is much more powerful!

Axial-flow-pumps will back-flow down the delivery pipe after they stop ~ this cleans the inlet strainer ~The TIP CLEARENCE of IMPELLER FOIL is critical, essentially the tighter the better ::but::no touching or drag & wear will occur::sand/rocks/sticks & stuff cause trouble here. Wide worn clearance lets water recirculate from the high pressure side around the tips to the low, performance drops, time for overhaul. Generally the case in all pumps.

Bearings~ each pedal has 2 X 4 =8 ~ axle 2 X 2 =4 ~ gearbox 3 ~ impshaft 1~ ==16 they are all essential & all have friction [lubricate]. Power transmission by chain is efficient,[bike stuff readily available] tooth-belt may be better. Angle-grinder-gearboxes are tough, available, after 'burning-out' the gears are 'run-in' & can be very smooth running.Ratios vary from 3:1 to 4:1, I'm using 3.3:1.

First check the 'free running' of bearings & gears, 'gut-it' by cutting the armature-shaft 4 or 5cm from g/b case , remove the windings [struggle] hacksaw/pliers/vice ~ make a shaft adaptor sleeve-coupling [motor-shaft usually about 1cm] pump-shaft 1.2cm[what I'm using].Make an adaptor to fit the cluster to the threaded-shaft.

So that's easy, if you know how,you can do it if you really want to.

A centrifugal / vane / progressive-cavity / rubber-impeller type pump can be used, without a gearbox == straight onto the cluster-shaft.The piston or diaghpram type pump have a fluctuating force requirement & are more suited to a mechanism with twin levers linked to two pumps & operated by 2 legs/feet going up/dn - linked by rope over a pulley.

Nothing new? Wait till you see the pictures::I havn't seen this before, I think it's unique, a new design//invention. Certainly it was 'problem solving' to satisfy a need, I've known exists, for an interface man//machine between slippery liuquid water fleuid & muscle-force.Many evolutions,varying the parameters,experements, trials & mistakes, now I'm almost satisfied & getting ready to release the design by blogging-on here & ihpva.org > forums > water > challenge +.onetonpump.com

STRATEGY for the developement of an idea like this is to make as much improvement as my resources allow then scatter the method of prototyping to others like hyrodynamic researchers in unis' world-wide, individuals or groups with this interest, & ultimately manufacturers. "tweaking" can improve performance ~ the "leading-edge" is fine-tuning shapes of water-passages [hydrodynamic-art],STREAMLINING. Functional aspects vary according to need & circumstance limited by resources! I claim to be the origonator of the design, with my father Hugh, we created it & I've made a fully functional prototype to prove the concept.The INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY is mine to handle, I expect a return from those who make it to sell it :: more later.

The aim is to 'peak' the performance & test functionality ,before manufacture to save "junk, with my name on it" ie old model, lower performance designs. Others with the ability to design & test will help![who are you?] This thing has to be robust //reliable // durable // intuitive // maintainable // fixable to function effectively in corrosive wet abrasive muddy sandy gritty hot or cold,remote,neglected & forgotten till needed.

Better still would be to make 100 more protos & scatter them to those capable of improving the performance//design. Give me the resources & that can happen!

I think this machine can help those in need of moving lumps o water, where there is no fuel//elec, just people power, ie sinking boat, flooded houses, tsunami ponds, marginal agriculture,water-purification, gyms, fun things, water education & wherever low-lift is appropriate.

If, as I imagine, this 'takes-off' & becomes a 'tool' for humanity, available to make or buy, it can save much fuel//c-gas, be a vital apparatus in many situations :: useful!

The power you brought is 166 Watt (I considered since you are in Australia that your "ton" is the long ton (UK) which is in the metric system 1016 kg) net at the weight level. I presume you were rather hot after the exercise. Normally at powers over 140 W and for longer action times the body cannot cool sufficiently and it tries the evaporation solution. Now, the fact you never saw a similar thing does not mean that some where it does not exist. You mention the V-8 effect but you should name it the V-2, it has an effect of uniformity ONLY if there are MORE than 2 sources. On the tandem or some where else the inertia of the moved mass brings as the flywheel in an engine a better uniformity. Now coming back to efficiency. Your test was done with a weight (if I understood it) the propeller has lot lower volumetric efficiency than the transmission you used to lift the ton. You should measure flow and head on one side and torque and rpm at the other side to obtain the true overall pumping efficiency with respect to the input power of the human engine.

To answer your question I am an engineer and participate at the CR4 questions.

Tony

The people who race tandems would love to have some extra power but I believe that this efect does not exist on a bicycle/tandem.

The tandem riders gain more in efficency or effectiveness by both "pulling together" Cranks are always in synchronism.ie at 0 degrees.

Modern cyclists also have pedal and shoes which are integrated which provide more than 180 degrees of power. You can get power out of the pullstroke - not neccesarily a machine property.

Any movement away from 0 degrees takes the riders out of synch with each other and starts to pull the machine apart, and the riders cannot ride "together" Especially useful on hills and when there is need to accelerate together.

I can see where you are coming from and in another application it might well be a goer.

Just not on a tandem Bicycle or indeed a tandem tricycle (and yes I have raced on all of these forms)

Sleepy

Most bicycle info I've seen suggests 68 rpm as ideal for the pedal crank. This can be factored into your choice of sprocket ratio for driving the pump.

Out of curiosity I looked at some Web images of tandem bicycles. All that I found showed the two pedal sets in identical phase, rather than 90° lead/lag. It would be interesting to try a tandem bike rigged up each way.

Tandem bikes have operators in synct, if they were out ,the dynamics would clash!Bikes have no need for the V-2 or V-8 effect as there is no prob @ TDC as the momentum of the kinetic energy carries on regardless ~~ unless going slow up steep hill then you see//feel velocity fluctuations brought on by crank-angle effeftiveness changes.

The story continues::OK so the tandem morphed into a frame of rhs tube [35mm sq X1.6 wall thickness] --two beams, upper for the seats & lower for crank-axles, then a cantilever at front, with a fork//yoke to hold the pump drive in a trunnion.

The cantilever pump-support, can be lowered//raised & aligned by lateral adjustment.

Importantly:-: the cantilever is set on a telescoping tube which is pulled outwards by a turnbuckle to tension the chain.

So you see - the drive chain goes forward from the big chainwheel to the cluster, held by the gearbox in a yoke- the yoke moves X-Y-Z by hanging in triangulated chains & the telescopic strut for tension.

This is the fundamental function::elabouration of the frame makes it like a "saw-horse", with splayed legs telescoping for to stand in water on uneven surfaces.

More evolution of this frame gets handlebars,footsteps, decks,provision for versitile adaptation for unimaginable circumstances that may occur.

Tools & a place for spare SHEAR PIN absolutely essential. No pin no pump!

So does that help in the quest for a human-power-pump?

Power generation & transmission :: from the leverage of a crank~torque in an axle~tension in a chain~twisting a sproket~g/b input-shaft torque~gear-mesh,sliding,spiral-bevel-33tooth gearwheel~11tooth little gear shaft-torque ~ pump-shaft+bearing ~~>shear-pin drive~~~~>impeller~~~~~water hydrodynamics.

Flying-foils-in-fluid, twisted foils, with dihedral,thicker at the root @ higher pitch ::thinner ,lower-pitch @ tips, where they move faster. Critical is the rate of twist.Angle-of-attack varies with flow & RPM :: affected by HEAD. Initially, with 'no-head' angle o attack is almost zero, angle increases with higher head // lower flow >> till the flow separates judt behind the leading-edge on the lifting [lower] side::STALL. Thick foils with big-radius leading edge have a wider range of a-o-a acceptance : but they drag heavily. Thin-foils fly sleekly & efficiently @ BEP ,have little tolerance of a-o-a variance ~ stall severely.~ Compromise?

"Things Won are Done ~ Joy's Soul lies in the doing"

It's in the shape of the efficiency curve:: high & wide is the object, practicality says for a wide range of good eff ,you sacrifice the top number. For a high eff usually the curve will 'peak' then fall off each side. The art of hydrodynamics :: a designers choice :: now CFD [computational fluid dynamics] is a 'software', to play with these factors.

NASA does CFD :: I want to 'run it by them', or somebody who has this ability!

""Trust that still, small voice,that says,"""This might work & I'll try it""" [Diane Marychild]

So does that help in any way?

The mechanism, two cranks out-of-phase chain-drive from 100t chain-wheel to cluster of sprokets 12->18 on a gearbox 3.3::1 increaser, to the vertical pump-shaft.

Very simple :: you can make it easyily. First scrounge a 'burned-out' angle-grinder, dismantle it , chop & clear the rotor to have an output shaft 4 or 5 cm with a pinned sleeve-coupling to the pump-shaft 1.2cm[or to your choice]

The BIG CHAINWHEEL is something you can get from "Power-Transmission" suppliers & get machined to bike-chain width & mounting on a modified bike chainwheel, by boring the centre to a diameter that rests on the mid c/w of a 3 x c/w axle; after the teeth have been ground-off by spinning it with a grinder removing the teeth. 4 X countersunk 6mm screws/nuts hold it on, that's how I've done it anyway.

Then comes the "bicycle-built-for-two" or a frame to hold two axles & two seats + support the driven mechanism out -front, so you can watch it. It could be behind & the big difference is chain tension in the top-chain feeds onto the sproket better than slack chain which 'wanders' & jumps. Accurate alignment & proper tension are more critical in the layout I use, this can be achieved, but requires more attention to detail.

The BBFT frame, is for you to dream & anticipate all the probable situations it could have to adapt to & all the facilities it can provide, from standing on rough surface underwater to sheltering sun/wind/rain. Aplace for tools & spares + drink & food, wheels to roll-on. Dream-on?