My Dear Sir,

This question was discussed in some detail some while ago in this forum. This following link will guide you to that discussion.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/26791#comment282509

Now, as a sometimes professional computer geek for the last 24 years, please allow me to give my own humble opinion.

For engineering applications, you need at the very least a 15 inch (380mm) display, and higher resolutions as well. WXGA (1280x800) is okay, but I consider WSXGA+ (1680x1050) to be a minimum. Also, your graphics should be the best available, with as much dedicated video memory or VRAM as possible.

You will want at the very least an 2GHz or faster 64bit dual core processor with the largest L2 cache possible. Then, absolutely nothing less than 2GB of RAM. Also, the front side bus should be at least 800MHz, though this is subject to argument.

The hard drive should be 7200rpm, and the largest available, considering the fact that engineering files, particularly CAD/CAM files, tend to be very large. 250GB is probably a minimum. For now, I recommend avoiding solid state hard drives. They are very expensive and not very large yet. The exception being if you are planning to also acquire a large external drive.

For an operating system, I recommend Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit. This is the latest OS from Microsoft. I have worked with it since it was released for beta testing early last year, and has been excellent from the beginning. In particular, you will want the 64 bit version, since it is much faster and more capable when dealing with those very large files than a 32bit OS.

The last question is, how much can you afford to spend? Invariably, the more you spend, the better your laptop will be. It is often better to buy last years model of a top quality laptop than to buy a new but lesser quality machine.

Now, having said all of this, let me give my personal opinion. I like Lenovo's ThinkPads. In a PC, they are the very best there are. They are extremely well made using the very best quality components and with a die cast magnesium internal framework and solid steel hinges, and very long-lived. In particular, they make a machine that is near perfect for an engineer called the W500, though it is very expensive. If you need to spend less, the T61 can often be found on sites like eBay for less than $1000US, and sometimes very much less.

Please feel free to contact me with more detailed requirements if you wish, and I can make a better recommendation.

An interesting discussion on topic here

I don't recommend laptops for anything other than light work or collecting field data, etc.. A desktop would be the better working environment less money too.

Bwire my friend, here I must disagree with you. In fact, the modern laptop is every bit as capable as all but the very must powerful and cutting edge of desktops. Though granted, they are not as easily upgradeable. And with a dock, it's quite easy to have a big screen, big keyboard, mouse, printers, external storage, etc. Furthermore, a 15" laptop screen in your lap subtends a greater angle than a 26 inch monitor from 36 inches.

As for the cost, a full-on, cutting edge workstation with a large flat screen etc is not going to cost any less than a top-end ThinkPad or MacBook Pro, and indeed may cost a good bit more.

And when you take into consideration the sheer convenience of being able to take your working computer with you? No my friend, the laptop is a very good alternative to the workstation. I might also add that it uses only a fraction of the wattage of the desktop machine.

I build Cadillac's and SUV's too

Here is the cutting edge http://www.asus.com/ProductGroup1.aspx?PG_ID=1quIC6RvvlvcvNbn

Before you make a claim like that you should compare the competition.

btw - you should check your 8th grade grammar books for a refresher on the possessive case.{:>)

Grammar? LOL!

It is the (Intel) hardware we are discussing; you may fit in this arena too...checkout this O/S please your critique may enable.

http://demo.tudos.org/nitpicker_tutorial.html

Cutting edge? *Snort* You don't read enough reviews my friend.

Power. The Mac and ThinkPad are both more than twice as powerful.

Battery life. The ThinkPad T400 can go up to 14 hours with the right configuration.

Thinness. MacBook Pro .95", MacBook Air .76", T400s .83", X301 .73". UL series 1.0"

Screen. Mac and ThinkPad are 16/10 WSXGA+, the ASUS is a 16/9 WXGA.

Toughness, the Mac is all aluminum, the ThinkPad has a die-cast magnesium roll cage chassis and carbon fiber plastics. The UL series has an aluminum lid and a plastic base.

The ASUS UL series is much like the Dell Adamo. Interesting look, but very disappointing performance. I suppose it might appeal to some. *Shaking Head* Oh, and the Mac and ThinkPad were going head to head in these performance categories more than a year ago.

DrMoose:

I gave you a 'good answer' on that. What you see in bwire's post is a mind set that is reflective of most Windows users. They have no experience with Macs in particular, somewhat greater experience with PCs other than what they own or use and do not care to investigate anything that might burst their balloon. And they accuse Mac Heads of living in a Reality Distortion Field.

I find the opposite to be true. Because Windows PCs are so ubiquitous most Mac users have experience with PCs. That is why they switched in the first instance.

That is not a theoretical statement. In my business I have occasion to set up project offices. Often in lesser developed countries. We recruit local staff. If they have any computer experience at all it is with Windows PCs. We have to train them. Until the advent of OS X we generally set up a Windows environment. After OS X we set up an Apple system and install Windows OS on some desktops. Many of the choices are dictated by the client's environment - usually Windows. But they never know that we are running XServes and OS X unless they visit the field office.

btw - the time to set up and train local staff in these field offices has been reduce by 50% and costs by >75%. The savings with the Unlimited Server License alone more than makes up the delta on the cost of the Mac laptops and desktops. Plus the built-in video conferencing via iChat and document sharing outside our network with iWork makes collaboration a pleasure rather than a chore.

Sir,

My thanks for the GA. I tend to agree with you in almost everything you have said.

In 24 years I have used DOS, pretty much every flavor of Windows there has ever been, Mac, Linux, Unix, OS/II, and a few in the Navy that had to have been unique. I admire Linux/UNIX for their stability and capabilities, but without a lot of training, they aren't very user friendly. Apple has taken the UNIX OS and turned it into something truly wonderful in OSX. However, I have been using Windows simply because all of my clients have used Windows, and I suppose I've gotten set in my ways.

BTW, have you tried Windows 7 yet? Actually a very good OS, better than any other MS I've seen yet, and the Aero desktop is gorgeous.

I do have to say that it is a testimony to Apple that an old Windows geek like myself can sit down with a Mac and be able to use it with no difficulty at all after less than an hour. OSX is the pinnacle of user friendliness.

As I've said before, the MacBook Pro is a beautiful thing, and if cost were no object I'd get one, but the truth is that I'd probably find myself running Windows on it most of the time anyway, simply because that's what I've been doing for so many years.

DrMoose:

Yes we install Windows 7 on desktops and MacBook Pros for users that need specialized applications; usually client developed software that is optimized to run under their unique system configurations. But even within a pure Microsoft environment we make little use of Windows and that is decreasing every day.We avoided Vista entirely.

A case in point. A sister company has developed an anti-sway system for cranes, which we use. For third party clients, the anti-sway system resides on Mac Minis but needs access to vendor proprietary crane control systems. Usually the onboard field bus com network is ProfiBus. The vendors have no knowledge of OS X and do not provide drivers. The required interface was written within the OS X IDE in C and implemented under Unix. The User Interface presented to the Crane Operator on a touch screen is Mac-Like - no need for the Menu bar etc.

We of course have die-hard PC users as well as Mac users in the same category. But in general, I can say that of the >100 people we have trained in a cross platform environment we have had on 2 who reverted to PCs when the project was completed. We give the employee a choice. They can keep or purchase their laptop for a nominal price. - Sorry I can't offer you one of those. No current projects in that category.

btw - with regard to my own experience in the computer industry. First job in the industry was when I was in high school. I worked for Electronic Associates Inc., then the premier supplier of Analog Computers in the world. Fantastic machines that would today out perform most super computers. In fact, the weather models and simulations were more accurate than those produced today on data sets there were a lot more sparse.

First you strut about cost effectiveness then preen over top drawer accoutrement's??

Apple is HARDLY aimed at business users anyway, they rely on "aesthetics" over function. Not saying they are not functional, but in a business environment EVERYTHING has to work, which means Windows.

*Power. The Mac and ThinkPad are both more than twice as powerful.

With 2006 electronic architecture? No i7 core processor? After ditching Intel graphics where is MAC going now AMD?

*Battery life. The ThinkPad T400 can go up to 14 hours with the right configuration.

Off-line and using a solid state HDD which you discouraged the use of in a previous post?

* Screen. Mac and ThinkPad are 16/10 WSXGA+, the ASUS is a 16/9 WXGA.

A 16:10 monitor of any size will permit you more vertical space, so if the web-pages you tend to visit are long, there will be less scrolling.
If you're looking at a 24" monitor, then a 16:10 display is wide enough to hold two full size word documents with a bit to spare, so unless you need anything wider than that, 16:10 is plenty wide.
On small monitors, though, the added width of 16:9 could be helpful in viewing multiple open windows and in both cases, the 16:9 ratio tends to be better for modern media, however if you watch old TV shows much (4:3) there will be quiet a bit of black space on the two sides.

*Toughness, the Mac is all aluminum, the ThinkPad has a die-cast magnesium roll cage chassis and carbon fiber plastics. The UL series has an aluminum lid and a plastic base.

If one isn't going to take meticulous care of their equipment buy ruggedized stuff instead, though a decent carrying case is cost effective.

"When ignorance is bliss, T'is folly to be wise. "Thomas Grey.

btw - thanks for demonstrating my point about Windows Users without knowledge.

You are a knowledgeable individual and I have appreciated previous postings but in this I can not agree as MAC is simply an overpriced tool.

A comedy of two like minded individuals trying to assert objectivity

my grammar sucks stop the beating...

Bwire my friend, you are quite possibly one of the most knowledgeable people I know when it comes to the ins and outs of Windows, and I will always defer to your superior judgement there.

I on the other hand am a hardware geek. I know just enough about the software to make it work, witness the discussion we had regarding the fellow with the random PC restarts.

The point is that I do know the hardware, and the MacBook Pro and the ThinkPad T series are simply the very best laptop computers that money can buy. Read the reviews going back the last 5 or ten years, and these two machines have always come out at the very top of the heap. Witness also the fact that while most laptops are junk in 2-4 years, MacBooks and ThinkPads are still doing useful work far beyond that. I have a T40 here that is almost 7 years old and still going strong, and I'm sure that atsysusa has similarly long-lived Macs. Yes, they are expensive, but they are worth it.

Regarding the specifics of your post.

The Intel I7 is a dedicated desktop CPU with a 140 watt power rating, which would hardly work for a laptop. Furthermore, the Core2Duo has been updated right along, with the latest 45nm Penryn CPUs only having been released earlier this year, and they are phenominally powerful.

Battery life with both the Mac and the ThinkPad are both very good. The ThinkPad has the added advantage of having batteries that can be quickly and easily switched out in the field. As for the solid state drives, I would not recommend them yet, because they are very expensive and not very big yet. Yes they are very fast and use very little current, and they are pretty rugged. The only exceptions I make to my recommendation is if one wishes to also use a very large external drive, or if the speed and/or low current use are critical.

The point I made regarding the screens was that the Mac and ThinkPad are available with much higher screen resolutions, which is very desirable especially for the engineer. I cheerfully admit that the LED back-lit screen has tremendous advantages over the CCFL type.

As for the toughness issue, let us face it. With the very best of wills, laptops tend to take a beating. They get things spilled on them, they get dropped, hooked off the desk by the power cord, and so forth. The simple truth is that the Mac and the ThinkPad are tougher than just about any other laptops around, and in a hostile world, this makes a lot of sense to me.

When it comes right down to it, it is always a matter of personal preference. You like the ASUS. Atsysusa likes the Macs. I like ThinkPads. And we all have what we believe to be very good reasons for our preferences. I just happen to agree with atsysusa on most of his reasons.

So, let us agree to disagree and continue to respect on another. We are MEN, not petulant children.

DrMoose has given you some good general guidance but I have an alternative.

I recommend a 17" MacBook Pro running OS X [10.6] Look here: http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

Not only do you get the best screen in the industry but the OS foundation is BSD UNIX that will run any POSIX compliant source code; and you can run it simultaneously in a window under OS X. If you need Windows for specific applications you can do that with built-in BootCamp or use one of the available Virtualization programs.

If you have not used a Mac before there is a very shallow learning curve. But the ride will be enjoyable.

While I agree with atsysusa in most regards, I do have certain reservations.

First of all, let me say that Macs are absolutely wonderful. The design is elegant, quite possibly the most beautiful laptop computer every made. They are built from the very best components available, and are nigh-well immortal. Battery life is quite good. The operating system is superb, utterly stable and glitch-free, and very easy to learn. And, there are not nearly as many hackers out there writing viruses and other assorted nasty-ware for OSX.5 and X.6 as there are for Windows.

The biggest single objection to the Mac for the scientist or engineer has been that, for every application you can find for the Mac OS, there were ten for Windows. However, with BootCamp, which allows you to run Windows on Mac hardware, that obstacle has been removed.

The MacBook Pro, like the ThinkPad, is just about the toughest, most capable, most long-lived laptop computer money can buy. These are the only two marques I will personally recommend. Though I will allow that where the Mac is beautiful, the ThinkPad is as ugly as a brick.

Now, having said all of that, a few more observations.

The 17 inch (430mm) screen laptops are wonderful. Both the MacBook Pro and the Lenovo T700 are incredibly powerful and fully capable desktop replacements. However, they are rather heavy and considerably bulkier than the 15 inch models, which must be considered if you plan to do any work in the field.

The MacBook Pro almost always comes with a high-gloss screen. This is extremely reflective under even the best of conditions, and makes working outdoors virtually impossible. There is a matte, anti-glare screen available, but you will almost certainly have to order the machine new from Apple to get it. And a new Mac is expensive. A quick check of the online AppleStore indicates that with the matte screen and the 500GB 7200rpm drive, a 17" will cost $2599 US, and a 15" only $200 less.

As an engineer, almost everything you do will be in Windows. Therefore, the added expense of the Mac hardware seems excessive to me. Also, the greater portability of the 15" machine makes it seem more desirable if you do any kind of traveling or field work.

The Lenovo W500, which I mentioned in my previous post, is a very nearly perfect laptop for the engineer. It is as powerful as a desktop work station. It has a superb 15" anti-glare screen, one of the very best available. It also has quickly replaceable batteries, a huge advantage if you spend a lot of time away from an electrical outlet. You can order a new one from Lenovo, configured according to my recommendations, for $1400, and the occasional used one sometimes appears on eBay for less than $1000.

So if you really must have the Mac, it is well worth the investment. However, as an engineer, I really do prefer the ThinkPad.

Dr Moose:

Valid observations but I have a couple of observations that counter common beliefs among PC users:

1. It is true that the 17" machines are bigger than the 15" machines - we still live in a Newtonian Universe. This has been a problem from me traveling by air in economy. If I travel Biz Class - not an issue. For me, and I suggest for most Engineers, the extra screen real estate is more than worth the hassle. Added bonus - under OS X there are 2 features, Expose and Spaces that leverage this real estate. Expose allows you to clear the screen desktop and presents all application windows as dynamically sized windows. Click on the one you want and it becomes the active window on top. Spaces allows you to set up to 8 discrete desktops so you are not running everything in one desktop. I normally run my email + calendar in 1; browser + note pad in 2; CAD in 3; Project Management in 4 etc. In addition, the native resolution of the 17" Mac is 1920x1200 and the screen is LED backlighted. Further, the 17" Mac is no thicker than the 15" and weighs 6.6 pounds [2.99 kg] vs 9.5 pounds for the Lenovo . And those weights do not include the power converter [Mac approx 6 oz, Lenovo >1 pound];

2. It is a common misconception that the Macs are "much more expensive." An Apples to Apples [pun intended] comparison will demonstrate that a full-featured Lenovo with the same networking, wireless and Graphics Card will be within 5 - 8% of the Mac price. Your mileage may vary. In addition, the Mac has an integrated video conferencing capability that you have to add-on to the PC. But the quality is much lower than the Apple implementation;

3. Yes there is a lot more software available for the PC than the Mac - but a lot of it is plain crappy. You only need 1 or 2 apps for a particular function. How many CAD programs do you need; or Project Management or word processors? There are applications available for the PC that do not run on Macs. In my industry [automation systems design] this is particularly true. But not only can you run these under BootCamp or Parallels or Fusion but there is a ton of Open Source stuff available. And on the Mac there are installation facilities that take the hassle out of installing Open Source source code and you end up with a Mac GUI - not a hodge podge of code;

4. With regard to the first point in 3 - Mac developers are passionate about creating consistent elegant GUIs that conform to Apple's Human Machine Interface standards. The result is intuitive applications with shallow learning curves that are a pleasure to use. Prove to yourself. Take a look at the latest Visio version and its counterpart OmniGraffle at www.omnigroup.com or its other apps. And the GUIs are consistent whether you are using a CAD program or a word processor; and

5. Yes a lot of Engineers are on PCs - but in my experience that has more to do with the ubiquity of Windows and employer IT domain protection than selection of the best tool for the job. And the obverse is true. Have you noticed the preponderance of Mac at JPL, NASA, CERN and HPC events?

Thanks for the commentary.

Well said sir. I agree with you that the Mac is a wonderful machine. Though I do maintain that one can acquire a new or nearly new ThinkPad for a great deal less than a comparable MacBook Pro.

I suppose it ultimately comes down to personal preference. With either marque, I do not think it is possible to go wrong. As I said before, I have been working with computers for 24 years, in Windows and Mac, as well as several other OSes, and if money were no object, I certainly would choose the Mac. However, money is an object, so I go with the used ThinkPad. In fact I'm looking to acquire a T60 or T61 next month. I plan and fully expect to spend less than $500.

I agree - the budget is always a consideration and often an inhibitor. But before you spend that $500 on a used T60 take a look on eBay for a comparable used MacPro.

In that case it will definitely be a bit more expensive because Macs maintain their value longer. But I have purchased and sold computer equipment on eBay with some success. Some times though you have to get lucky!

Good Luck with that.

Indeed I have sir, and you are quite right. I have lusted after a new, unibody 15" MacBook Pro for some while. As I said previously, the newest MacBook Pros are quite the most beautiful laptop computers every built. I also very much like the illuminated keyboard. Unfortunately, they remain outside my price range and the matte screen is difficult to find. So, the Lenovo remains the top choice. Unless you happen to have a 15" unibody with the matte screen you'll sell me for $499.95? It seems rather unlikely.