CR4 - The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®

Previous in Forum: Dark Matter   Next in Forum: Comparing Nuclear Reactors - IFR vs. LFTR
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







48 comments
Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: The only place where hell can really freeze over.....Michigan
Posts: 63
Good Answers: 3

Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/12/2010 7:14 AM

So the donkey that put my driveway in a few years ago was supposed to put a base of sand and then 3" - 6" crushed concrete then some 1"-3" crushed concrete on top of that. Well he ended up not putting down the sand, and only used the 3"-6" crushed concrete. The past couple of years, right around this time, my driveway turns into a vehicle swallowing monster. I was out there last night and stepped in an area that i thought was firm, until i put all my weight on my boot, and sank all the way up to my ankle, lucky i got out alive, and with my boot.

Any one else have this issue? What have you dont to fix it? If i add more crushed concrete, it will just sink into the mud. What about adding bags concrete mix to the mess, would it harden up? What if i put the bags as is on the driveway and drive over them, pressing them into the muck, would that do any thing for me?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4473
Good Answers: 145
#1

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/12/2010 8:11 AM

We used to do sort of the same thing here in Pittsburgh with mill slag. We have lots of yellow clay and (once) lots of very cheap slag. So people would put 3-4" on their drive every year and every year it would all start the long trip toward Australia (or whatever is the other side of the globe). When I had a footer excavated in part of the drive, there was slag over two feet down!

I'd say you either gotta get rid of that water that's wicking up or you gotta get a slab of some kind in there to stabilize it. I finally poured concrete.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 22848
Good Answers: 591
#2

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/12/2010 8:25 AM

Consider improving the drainage. For example, is there scope to excavate a trench alongside the driveway, put in some open-jointed pipes collecting surface water and routing it away, backfill partly with crushed granular fill and make good to the original top with the remaining material? Such a structure is known here as a land drain, and is quite effective. Also, excavating alongside the driveway instead of removing and rebuilding it ensures that vehicular access is maintained along it during the work period, making it a propsect for the amateur working at weekends, perhaps.

Depending on the length of the driveway, it may be necessary only to do the worst bits, perhaps?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Anonymous Poster
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/12/2010 9:56 AM

geesh

insults come so readily in here anymore.

anyways, my own driveway, of which I've maintained for the last thirty years does the same thing year after year. I have so much gravel put on it, that I tried driving a piece of rerod into it to hold forms in place, and the rerod bent because of the resistance.

last fall before winter set in, I put down eight yards of 3/4" gravel, and you wouldn't even know it now. can you fight mother nature? good luck tryin

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 115
Good Answers: 17
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/12/2010 10:05 AM

When I built my driveway, I built it across a low-lying field that floods every spring. I dug down about 18" and slammed in my old broken-out driveway, a bunch of rocks from a building stem wall (old stone barn foundation), some blacktop from another construction project, a basketball post footing (that caused me some trouble), and miscellaneous stones from rock piles hither and yon.

Over that I had the rock quarry up the road haul in 6" breaker run, leveled it out, then 3" breaker run, leveled it out, then 1 1/2" gravel. That was it until I was done with construction. I had 300 ton cranes, concrete trucks (80,000 lbs when almost full), dump trucks, and other construction equipment pack that down rain and shine over the next 3 months, then after a winter, I brought in 3/4" "driveway mix" (3/4" stone with fines mixed in and spread that several times over the next summer. I was good and had a solid driveway until a couple years ago when all the flooding gave me lake frontage with 2 1/2 feet of "driveway moat". I could actually drive through it without any hint of getting stuck, but my cars couldn't move for fear of bad door seals or floating away (which my wife's 1/2 ton truck actually did - and I had to wade out and hook her frame under water and float her back to shore). Then I had to add more to raise the driveway and dig in a culvert through the aforementioned basketball hoop foundation.

Anyhow, my success does not help out your problem, because you attempted to do that. What you can do now is dump in some of the 3 to 6" breaker run in the worst spots and pack it down good right now while things are gushy. Keep adding until it starts to firm up, or you figure it won't ever... Then add the 1 1/2" clear stone over everything to allow drainage of the water mentioned above, but that will roll all over without something to hold it together. Try to pack it down as well, and maybe have them haul in a couple of lifts. Over that you will need to dump in 6" of 3/4" with fines and do several lifts over the next year or two. It will eventually firm up.

While having them haul in the rock, have the dump truck start at the curb and back in over what he is dumping. He will do a hell of a job of packing things down as well as give you a gauge of what you still need to add. You can beg, borrow, or rent a large tractor or skid loader to rearrange while he is making his several trips, and you should be able to get a workable driveway within one day to begin using it that night and won't have to pay anyone else - especially the donkey who did you the favor the first time. You may or may not want to wait a few days between the clear stone and the driveway topper, but probably not. However, save $100 from each paycheck for a while to cover a load of the topper every now-and-then to replace it as it packs in.

I don't know your legal situation with the donkey, but I would also pursue getting the donkey to pay for your costs and time, but don't forget to add enough gravel to lift your driveway 3 times at 3" per lift as things settle in over the next 2-3 years. You can get the rest of the costs by collecting receipts during the initial repair. That will be about 150 lbs per cubic foot and you will buy by the ton or by the yard (4000 lbs approx.). Call your local gravel pit for the cost of that locally as it varies greatly - especially if you know the pit owner or the landowner (who might fore-go the royalty if you are a good neighbor). I think a load (11 yards) cost me about $100 to $150, depending on the grade of the gravel. If you had the proper paperwork/contract with the donkey to follow the specifications you mentioned and he did not, then HE is liable for your costs to fix the problem, and it would hold up in any small claims court.

I can't imagine you would have over $2000 in that fix unless you have an unusually large driveway. It should run about half the price of concrete, as a reference if you are contemplating that solution. However, if you don't get a good base under concrete, you will have problems unless you do two things: Rebar the crap out of it - #4's both ways at 12" O.C. minimum (I might lean toward #5's for a diy project - a little more expense for materials, a little more piece of mind for the sweat equity), and make it thick 6" minimum.

Off topic, but if it was my drive, I would do the gravel thing and then in a year, peel out enough for a concrete apron at the garage (since your house is already a couple years old), and use the peel-out for a lift on the rest of the driveway and concrete the apron. I would NEVER pay anyone to concrete an apron on a house less than 2 years old. All uneducated new home owners want that pretty finished look for the big housewarming party, but it WILL sink in at the foundation, the water will run toward the garage, and the concrete will crack up over the next two years. Then you will spend the money on the second approach or you will "enjoy" a crappy looking dysfunctional approach for many years to come! Blacktop it if the wife won't let you live with gravel for 2 years minimum.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: The only place where hell can really freeze over.....Michigan
Posts: 63
Good Answers: 3
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/12/2010 10:15 AM

i would love to be able to make the donkey who didnt do what he was supposed to do pay for this repair.....but he went bankrupt the day after he finished my house...that leads to a whole other mess i had to deal with cause none of his subcontractors got paid and a few put liens on my property.....donkey is just a more socially acceptable word for what i really think of this.....donkey

thanks to all for the advice, it is appreciated

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 185
Good Answers: 4
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/12/2010 12:24 PM

If it sinks up enough, you might try sinking in some 12" cinder blocks and filling them with something like No. 57 gravel and then on top of that a layer of crusher run. But sadly, anything you try will only be a temp fix until you put down concrete. IMHO

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 115
Good Answers: 17
#7
In reply to #5

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/12/2010 4:37 PM

I can think of a couple more choice names than donkey to use as well...

That is part of the satisfaction in doing things yourself. You have one guy to blame, and you know he won't walk away from the responsibility. I hope you had receipts that you paid the donkey - to keep away the donkey's creditors. What an ugly mess - I don't envy you at all!

Sometimes we live and learn, but the cost of some lessons are worse than others...

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 14960
Good Answers: 162
#18
In reply to #2

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway.....HELP!!!

03/13/2010 1:45 PM

GA for the best answer when reading down from the top......

As ever Mr PW Slack, a really good post.....!!!!!!

Longtime no see!! Nice to see you again on the same page!!!

__________________
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#8

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/12/2010 11:25 PM

if you have ever used any sodium chloride to melt snow and ice thats your problem. usually Clay stays firm, with water flowing over it and under the topsoil. the salts will liquefy the clay.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7552
Good Answers: 98
#9

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 1:54 AM

How long and wide is the driveway?

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7552
Good Answers: 98
#10

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 2:38 AM

How did I fix the sloppy mess?

I got skid-loader an dug down 4-1/2' and 10' wider than the driveway. I spread decomposed granite and compact with tamper then rip-rap and more aggregate and the tamper again. Then make forms and set foots across every 6' and two at drive width the whole length. Set block on foots, side block is stagger height, length and cross are @ grade level. Layer rip-rap and aggregate in centers to fill and compact, but only marginal in sides and line with drainage pipe wrapped with landscape cloth then backfill with dirt. Build forms over drive foundation and add screen then pour concrete suitable for the application.

Don't forget the hand prints of the kids at the edge

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
4
Associate

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 43
Good Answers: 1
#11

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 8:12 AM

Scrape the stone off and lay down a fabrick, It is geo-textile. it will firm up the area and keep the mud from working up through, You will use a lot less material. I'm a excavator now in my 41 year and use this all the time with great results.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Popular Science - Paleontology - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Holeincanoe Ontario
Posts: 2176
Good Answers: 27
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 8:57 AM

Yep....that's what I did courtesy of some good advice. Mine lasted 10 years before shredding occurred. I layered 3" of sand and 3/4 gravel on top. Do you have any advice on what to use underneath? Or on top?

__________________
Prophet Freddy has the answer!
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 43
Good Answers: 1
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 9:46 AM

What I like to use is a material called 2A subase, This consist of # 2 stone with limestone screening mixed. Put down when moist and rolled let dry almost like concrete. For a finished look topcoat with a very thin coat 1b stone.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Popular Science - Paleontology - New Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Holeincanoe Ontario
Posts: 2176
Good Answers: 27
#15
In reply to #13

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 10:05 AM

Sounds very much like what they're using on portions of the gravel roads around here. Minimizes the dust also.

Are there any types of material that you'd recommend? or is 2A subase it? (pardon my ignorance in the field)

Otherwise

Thanks, good advice.

__________________
Prophet Freddy has the answer!
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 186
Good Answers: 22
#14

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 10:02 AM

Your problem is typical of what occurs annually in northern climates, or anywhere that freezing over a few inches occurs during the winter. The frost is just starting to melt and, because there is still frozen and, therefore, impervious soil under the thawing surface, there is no place for the accumulating melt water to go, so it liquefies the mixture that you are trying to drive through. Once the frozen soil thaws, that water will quickly dissipate downward and your driveway will firm up. No amount of drainage will change this, as the water can't get to it until the frozen barrier thaws.

About the only way to avoid this annual phenomenon, short of paving, is to have an open-graded, angular, inter-locking aggregate, with virtually no fines, in the upper 6" of your driveway. You don't need large aggregate for this, it should be in the 5/8" to 1-1/2" range and must be fractured (crushed), not round, and it should be compacted with a large vibratory roller that will 'lock' the aggregate together. Depending on the type of aggregate that is used, you may need to moisten it during compaction for proper lubrication of the aggregate units for the 'lock'. In order to keep fines from migrating or 'pumping' up into that open-graded zone, you should use a good geotextile membrane under it, one which allows water to penetrate but does not permit soil particles to pass through it. If you build a driveway using this method, you could use it even if it is literally under water.

The downside to this design is that you will not be happy with the lack of fines in the upper zone for about 98% of the year.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 115
Good Answers: 17
#17
In reply to #14

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 12:07 PM

I can (and have) driven my driveway while under water as noted above. I have the topper with fines on it, and it nearly creates a water-shedding surface over all the open draining stuff underneath it. There is no geo-textile, and I have NO problems. The poor author is looking to see what he can do on top, and clear-stone as noted will suck 98% of the time.

Your solution is good - use the compacted clear stone to allow for drainage, but you can most certainly cap with topper to pull the top together and make for a convenient driveway year-round as opposed to functional for 2 weeks a year. I am not chastising here, just save yourself the hassle, tire wear, and twisted ankles and put on a top coat after the drainage layer - just be sure the drainage layer is deep enough to do it's job.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#16

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 11:54 AM

This is a difficult one to solve without being there to first hand observe the surface and subsurface conditions + lay of the land. Subsoil types and drainage issues need to be ascertained properly, and that is difficult to solve over the www or even a telephone call. A great deal of what you will be eventually doing to rectify this mess on your hands depends on what the underlying soil strata is composed of. Do you know what type of underlying soil you have and it's approximate depth?

I'm afraid to tell you this, but all that placed crushed stone has basically gone to waste. You must excavate down to the bottom of the sloppy soil and remove it, so that also entails removing the crushed stone as well. I'm also afraid to inform you that you'll not be able to reuse this crushed stone i fit contains any degree of clays and silt particles that have migrated up and mixed into the crushed stone layers. If you have an area that needs fill material, then remove and place all the contaminated crushed stone and muck to the spoil area.....it's useless to reuse it.

Then your next work item is to improve the subgrade material as best as you can. Of course you may have to remove the sloppy subgrade by undercutting it by several feet. More importantly, it is crucial to remove any encountered high groundwater as well as improve the driveway surface drainage, especially if the area is flat or a low area with poor drainage. If water is pooling anywhere on the frozen ground surface, then that is an indicator that you may have poor surface drainage or a soil with poor seepage characteristics. You may also have a "perched water table" where the groundwater encountered an underlying soil strata such as clay or even bedrock that prevents percolation of the water.

You may have to install a subsurface drainage system to deal with groundwater issues. You may have to install a 4-inch diameter perforated HDPE underdrain piping. This comes in coils. Make sure you install the one with the factory-installed integral filter fabric sock. Also make sure you'll be able to have at least a minimum positive 0.50% gradient (0.50 feet vertical drop in 100 feet horizontal run) downwards to a point of discharge. Make sure that this is a day-lighted discharge, say to an stream, ditch or a low spot or area away from the driveway that doesn't impinge on the neighbors land or improvements nor your house and land improvements......basically, make sue you don't case flooding damage to yourself and others because of your actions.

If you have a surface drainage issue, then you may have to install some culvert pipe to convey the accumulated water, whether it is storm runoff or water coming from an existing drainage ditch, or a stream (can be active or intermittent). If things can't be corrected with simple HDPE culvert pipe you may have to install precast concrete catch basins and subsurface drainage piping.

Back to ther driveway: Wherever you scraped away muck and contaminated subgrade and subbase materials, you'll need to replace them. If the mucked out area is very bad, you may have to installed an appropriate plastic geo-grid first. Installing geo-fabric may be a waste of time, effort and money because it can be pulled down into the underlying crappy subgrade when a load (say a wheel) is applied. Atop the geo-grid I'd place no less than a foot thickness of light to medium-sized angular stone rip-rap (least dimension being 6-inches in any given direction). Next layer I'd place is a 12-inch compacted thickness of well graded crushed stone with a minimum sieve size passing 1.5" and a maximum sieve size passing 3". You can follow this layer with no less than a 6" compacted later thickness of 3/4"-1" crushed stone. this would be your wearing surface. Make sure it sheds water off to each shoulder by using a centerline crown of no less than 6-inches in 6 or 7 feet width. I'd provide no less than a 12 foot or 14 foot wide carriageway with no less than 2' wide shoulders sloped at 2" in 2 feet. May sure your carriageway surface is no less than 12" to 15" above the existing land surfaces so that you provide some sort of dry subgrade.

When all else fails hire a local Licensed Professional Engineer specializing in Civil Engineering. especially if you have complicated subsurface soil drainage and soil issues + surface drainage issues. Consider it a cheap insurance policy by hiring the LPE and paying for a limited topographic survey so as to correct the problems you're encountering.

Too bad you couldn't sue the pants off the "donkey" before he went belly-up.....I would have countered sued the bastard anyhow for some sort of recovery...there's such things as property liens and mechanics' liens you know! Should have had a decent lawyer that's like a Barracuda and had some backbone, not a spineless Jellyfish of an attorney!!! LOL

IN HINDSIGHT: Unfortunately, you should have been closely monitoring the donkey's installation of the work all along, so the onus really falls upon you to have made sure your hired Contractor performed as what is written down in an agreement between you two that has also been previously reviewed by a PE and your lawyer.

Good luck and a great sunny day!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7552
Good Answers: 98
#19
In reply to #16

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 3:12 PM

Wow! guess I didn't do far different in post #10

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 175
Good Answers: 1
#20

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 6:39 PM

Cudos to Digger104! His was the best answer, at least for my area of the country. I put in a driveway 5 years ago over South Carolina Clay. What a mistake. The contractor I hired did me a disservice to say the least. He knew or should have known that a fabric was required to keep separation between the road bed and the clay subsurface. I have been researching a product called Mirafi ( miracle fiber ) made by TenCate in Pendergrass, Georgia. They have several fibers for different purposes. Unfortunately none of them is cheap. You can expect to pay about $ .70 per sq yd. then you will need a composite surface that gets progressively smaller to give you a better ride. The road preparation is very important as every fiber made can be punctured by rocks. The company can suggest which product is best for your conditions. Good luck. My driveway is 1/3 of a mile of mud right now and will require an additional 20K to fix it. It will have to wait a while longer.

__________________
The time has come the Walrus said to speak of many things, of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and kings.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 48
Good Answers: 1
#21

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 7:34 PM

Being a fairly good contractor that is presently living on a farm in southern oregon I would continue to load it up with crushed concrete and drive it till it stopped sinking. Then do what you have to do to get it smoothed out. Without starting all over again I do not believe that their is a quick cheap fix.. I lived is Mississippi for a number of years and we used crushed oyster shells there and they were great with all of the calcium in them after a couple of layers and getting wet a bulldozer had a hard time dealing with them.. good luck..

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#22

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/13/2010 8:18 PM

Your driveway has two identifiable problems:- 1. Poor subgrade. It requires excavation or, cement lime stabilization. 2. Use of the concrete itself has numerous air voids which the subgrade enjoys occupying in the wet months. Geotechnical Engineer' solution Subgrade Drainage: Put in a longitudinal (in the centre) subsoil drain, 1500 mm deep x 300 wide, using 100 mm dia. perforated pipe with a geotextile sock. Cover with 75 mm fines like scoria or, similar, and permeable drainage material on top of that. Place a damp proof course (d.p.c. at least 0.25 ~0.5 mm thick, and final soil (for a lawn?) on top of that. Subgrade: I would have the strength of the subgrade tested and noted for any expansive clay content which shows a polygonal pattern of cracking in the dry moths. Use the crack thickness as a guide to indicate the seriousness, 75 mm: very serious 50 mm: heavy 25 mm: mm less: o.k. I would suggest weighing up excavating any weak soil, or consider lime or cement stabilization by doing a test first and comparing. (we need to know the mineral /cement or mineral /lime interaction results Be sure to use fines in the broken concrete mix, and compact in no more than 100 mm layers with a vibrating drum roller, typically 50Hz vibration, with the machine top heavy. i.e. laden with water if the roller drums are empty. Paul T. Finlay Senior Engineer Waitakere Consulting Engineers Auckland NEW ZEALAND

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/14/2010 11:55 AM

Paul, good call!

One word of caution though: If the subgrade is still predominately wet and is heavy plastic clay, even after installation of underdrains, fabrics and new carriageway subbase, I'd keep the vibratory rolling down to a minimum, or else you may liquefy the subgrade and cause an even bigger mess. I would be afraid of pumping the subgrade.

I would prefer non-vibratory rolling with multiple passes......also, you could employ non-vibratory sheepshead rollers for compaction, with limited weight (ie, no or little water present in the rollers).

Still would like to see a geogrid like Tensar atop the subgrade to act like a snow shoe under wheel loading. I've used this material successfully many times in the past through wetlands, peat bogs and bayou building anything from roads, to levees and other earthwork. also, may be cheaper to install than cement-stabilized soil option, or if conditions are really bad, use both materials.

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3410
Good Answers: 148
#24

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/14/2010 9:13 PM

well guys, i'm not a civil engineer, and I've never lived in the frozen wasteland of the north, but I've lived here in the Houston area all my life and we have expansive clays and flooding problems in spades here. The typical solution around here is a perforated and socked sub-drain to prevent moisture percolating up from below undermining the roadbed, followed by a minimum of a foot of stabilized sand as a sub-base (a mix of cement and sand. once it gets wet, it gets hard as a rock, but moisture can percolate through it. I suspect flyash/sand mixes may also serve a similar purpose but I have no direct knowledge.), followed by a geotextile layer, then either the crushed concrete/rock or concrete/asphalt. But your mileage may vary.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tulare, CA
Posts: 1523
Good Answers: 24
#25

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/15/2010 9:48 AM

I love it. That's exactly what my Dad would have called the guy, "A Donkey."

__________________
Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time but always enough time to do it over?
Register to Reply
Participant

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1
#26

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/15/2010 12:17 PM

Have you considered putting down filter fabric then spreading 4 inches or so of dense grade aggregate, or your concrete on top? Filter fabric is the best stuff since sliced bread. It keeps the mud from coming up and the topping from going down. Everything is nice and neat and it drains well when it rains, or snows, etc. My gravel/bulldozer guy installed this system under my gravel driveway in front of my house and behind the barn where the horses gather. When it rains, snows, whatever mother nature trys to throw at me, my drive and barn area are nice and neat. So are my boots. This has saved me $$$$$$$ on gravel! Good luck.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7552
Good Answers: 98
#27
In reply to #26

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/15/2010 11:24 PM

filter fabric

Have noted several nifty names for it but at the building centers it's referred to as "landscape cloth". Yeah it's great! I couldn't believe the results the first time I put it behind a retaining wall holding back SOCAL gumbo, rain-water came streaming through but no mud; hooray! I like to put it under everything from stepping stones to DG.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Engineering Fields - Mining Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Construction Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 940
Good Answers: 12
#28

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/16/2010 8:10 AM

For cases like this in PA we usualy start of with about 8" of ASTM #1 stone (max 4" passing the screen) then covered with (4"-6") 2A mod (i.e. crushed concrete, stone, RAP (Asphalt Milling), etc.). It's a very old practice but still works. Fabric is OK but it tends to rip and mud will still pump through. I've also seen it pump through 10" of asphalt pavement several times because the incorrect subase was put down.

Good Luck

__________________
John J Baker
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#29

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/16/2010 10:45 AM

Landscape Fabric should NOT be confused with the term Filter Fabric, as it's much less strong than Filter Fabric, Landscape Fabric will tear much more readily and has much less punch through resistance. It is very inappropriate to interchange the term as well as the usuage in construction.

For unstable subgrades, the material of choice is still a plastic geogrid over Filter Fabrics or geofabrics......geogrids are also used in fabric earth retaining walls and for use in tying back/anchoring Segmental Block Retaining Walls (SBRT's). Sometimes, they are used in conjunction with segmental interlocking precast concrete retaining wall facings, commonly known as "Reinforced Earth" construction.

All one has to do is compare a few of the key structural properties such as % Elongation, Tensile Tear Strength and Mullen Puncture Resistance.....and as always, read the instructions and installation guides before selecting a fabric or geogrid IF you know how to engineer a road or retaining wall. IF NOT, especially when it comes to retaining walls then you don't have any business doing so, because someone, someday, will be hurt or maimed or God forbid, killed, by a sudden collapse or failure. When in doubt, hire a Licensed Professional Engineer specializing in Geotechnical Engineering or Structural Engineering who is experienced in Retaining wall design. Also, by NYS Education Department and the NYS Building Code definitions, a retaining wall is any vertical or sloped wall having a differential earth surfaces greater than 4 feet.

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Engineering Fields - Mining Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Construction Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 940
Good Answers: 12
#30
In reply to #29

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/16/2010 11:08 AM

I agree there is a big difference between geo textiles and landscape fabric. I also agree that its an important part of retaining walls. But even geo textiles has it limits when it comes to working it into areas where traffic will be. That's why PENNDOT and other highway engineers in PA prefer the use of Coarse Stone ASTM #1 , #3 at a minimum, in situation where you have heavy clay soils that cause similar situations and you can't remove all that soils.

In Erosion magazine a read an article on reinforced concrete blocks connected with cables was used for crossing swamps with heavy equipment. I'll have to look through my back issues to find where it was. Something to think about though.

__________________
John J Baker
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the pool because it is too hot.
Posts: 2753
Good Answers: 130
#31

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/16/2010 4:01 PM

Maybe a bridge?

__________________
Plenty of room here
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: The only place where hell can really freeze over.....Michigan
Posts: 63
Good Answers: 3
#32

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/24/2010 7:41 AM

Thanks for all the advice. I had a guy that puts in driveways come out and talk to me about my problem, and i was able to talk to him with some level of competence.....kinda nice knowing a little bit about something....they cant pull the wool over your eyes when you know something any way he suggested removing all of the existing driveway about 12" deep and starting over again, then he changed his mind and suggested putting down driveway fabric and putting about 10" of crushed ashphalt on top of that. not sure which way were gonna go just yet, the later was the cheapest option, but might not last as long

Thanks again for the assistance.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 14960
Good Answers: 162
#33
In reply to #32

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/24/2010 1:44 PM

What did he say about some drains to get the water away??

__________________
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: The only place where hell can really freeze over.....Michigan
Posts: 63
Good Answers: 3
#35
In reply to #33

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/24/2010 3:08 PM

When we discussed doing it the right way (ripping it all out and starting over) he was willing to cut some trenches along the drive and so i could install some drain tiles.....then we switched the discussion to applying a band-aid (which is finacially easier to digest at this time).....either way the driveway has dried up and is usable....until the next stretch of rain

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7552
Good Answers: 98
#36
In reply to #35

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/24/2010 7:28 PM

How about the old fashioned way? Correctly apply base and concrete to one small area at a time...

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Petroleum Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spring, Texas
Posts: 3410
Good Answers: 148
#34
In reply to #32

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/24/2010 2:00 PM

My two centavos for whatever they are worth, I would suggest that ripping it all out and redoing it right, while more expensive in the short term, will have long term benefits that the shorter term fix won't. I would urge you to seriously consider the longer term option. Ultimately you'll have to do it anyway, there is no point in putting a band-aid on the problem.

__________________
Who is John Galt?
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#37
In reply to #34

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 10:33 AM

I'm in agreement with Rorchach in that it makes more sense to rip it all out and start afresh rather than apply a band-aid here and there. Although it will cost more you won't be cursing under your breath every time it rains and the driveway area (and adjoining lawn? areas) become temporary swimming pools for the wildlife.

If you want to save money, have the contractor rip-out the drive way and provide the shoulder ditches for the underdrains. Have him come back in a few days after you and your buddies install the filter fabric, 4" or 6" coiled Perforated HDPE underdrain pipe and the clean crushed stone. It won't take that long to do it with friends.....invite them over for a steak dinner and 1/2 beer keg party after the work is done. Also, you could lay down and roll-out the geogrid on the mucked-out subgrade before the Contractor gets back. 2 people can do this in a few hours, depending on how long your driveway is. Just make sure you overlap the runs of geogrid at least a foot, but preferably more like 18-inches. It doesn't take much rocket science to DIY and in the end you'll feel good about the work you've completed + even more good about how much $$$ you've saved not having to fork it over to the Contractor. Talk to the Contractor and see if he's willing to go the self-help route....in this day and crappy economic climate if he's hungry enough and needs the work then he'll agree to what I suggested here or face losing the project. There's a lot of hungry excavators out there now....like a whole school of hungry fish in the pond!!!!

Good luck!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 14960
Good Answers: 162
#38

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 1:00 PM

Firstly, I am writing using my memory of what has already been written, I apologise if I am seriously inaccurate in any way. I remember that the drive is long, but not if its on a hill, in a dale or what, sorry.

The drive is long and water is the problem, so why not hire (and learn to drive it yourself!) one of those little JCB type excavators. I have driven them, in 5 minutes you are a professional!

Then excavate a drain on either side and lay concrete/plastic pipe, with drains into the pipe at suitable intervals, to carry the water away from the drive.

Run a pipe from one side (with a cut through the drive) to the other if needed at specific points.

Just stop water getting into the fundament of the drive......

Back fill so that other than the drain gratings, nothing is visible. Grade the earth so that water is directed to the drains and not the drive.

Or lay 1/2 pipe open on both sides of the drive......well under the drive level......

This I personally feel is a job that a few amateurs, with some careful planning, could handle, then maybe the drive will be ok once it has drained out....

A great job for the summer!!! I would love to be able to do something like that, but I do not have the land!!! or the need!!

__________________
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: The only place where hell can really freeze over.....Michigan
Posts: 63
Good Answers: 3
#39

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 1:18 PM

the drive is about 150 foot long with a place to back the vehicles into to turn around. the problem is the drive has about a 2-3 foot elevation change from the road to the middle and then to the parking area. in otherwords a shallow "U" shape, and the turn around area is a down hill slope into the lowest part of the drive. it is at that place where all the elevation changes stop that it gets the sloppiest.

I am probably going to take several diffrent routes this summer. First rent a trencher, and pray that i dont cut thru the power line , and put in some drainage along the sides of the drive, expecially where everything drains. Once this is done, i will probably have someone come out and dig about 6" deep and see if we can get to some sort of reasonable base, then lay some driveway fabric, and then some crushed ashpalt to cap it off......unless the finances dont show up then i will scrape the drive somewhat level and lay some fabric with the crushed ashpalt.

either way, its gonna be a nice long project....and its really gonna drive the misses nuts but she should be happy with it for a while.....i hope

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 14960
Good Answers: 162
#40
In reply to #39

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 1:51 PM

Best of luck.

Do please update with pictures of before and after.....

__________________
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#41
In reply to #39

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 1:53 PM

Before you dig, call your local electric power company, the natural gas co., the telephone co., the water dept. and the cable TV to come out and locate their services, otherwise if you hit one or several and break them then you'll be paying the respective company for the repairs and/or replacement!

Better safe then sorry.......also you'll void possibly frying yourself if you hit an underground electrical line.....and possibly avoid blowing yourself up if you hit the natural gas service (if you have one)! Ever seen a natural gas geyser before?!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#42
In reply to #41

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 1:55 PM

sorry, I forgot to add the local sewer dept to the list if you have a sanitary sewer lateral servicing your home...

Good luck....

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7552
Good Answers: 98
#45
In reply to #39

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 9:18 PM

First rent a trencher, and pray that i dont cut thru the power line

You will be interested in this... before you dig

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#43

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 2:03 PM

In New York state we have a one-shop utility locating service that's responsible for contacting all underground facility operations call "DIG SAFELY NEW YORK", which is provided for contractors and residents to call before they dig...that's a requirement and law passed by the state legislature.

You may have a similar service in the state you're located in. Check the phone book or your local town or city building inspector's office to see if they have the info telephone number...

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Location: The only place where hell can really freeze over.....Michigan
Posts: 63
Good Answers: 3
#44

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/25/2010 3:53 PM

yes, here in michigan its called missdig.....already contacted them

and yes i will try and get some before and after pics up here.....maybe even a few during pics....we will see.

Thanks again for all the support, suggestions and ideas.

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 14960
Good Answers: 162
#46

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/26/2010 5:03 AM

It just struck me, what you need is a pond ( as a buffer) at the lowest part of your garden, near to where the lowest part of the drive is located, it should be as wide as possible to allow water to evaporate easily, also it needs to be emptied in some way into a drain or a nearby stream. The connection does not have to be huge in diameter, even a two inch pipe will working 24 hours a day get rid of a lot of water. make sure that rubbish cannot block it, a large mesh sieve is recommended - easily made.

The pond is just there to allow water to be buffered till the pipe can empty it....

Even running a pump every few days in the rainy season may be financially viable in some cases.........

__________________
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 3885
Good Answers: 144
#47

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/26/2010 8:51 AM

If you have backing up stormwater runoff problems, probably the best way to drain the area is to install a 12-inch Sch 80 PVC pipe section crossing underneath your driveway to a lower area that is acceptable to receive the water------making sure you don't damage anything downstream, including your neighbor's lands.

Make sure to install it deep enough, say 2.0 - 2.5 feet of soil cover backfill (gravel) above the crown (top) of the culvert pipe so as not to crush it later with wheel loads from any vehicle in the future. Make sure to bevel cut the ends at 45 degrees to conform to the sideslope (embankment) of your driveway. A 12-inch diameter pipe can convey a lot of water in a short amount of time...the Critical Discharge (Qcr) = 2.58 CFS, ie, that's without a water head above the inlet....w/ head above the pipe it's much more.

Good luck!

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long.92E,Lat.26N
Posts: 1339
Good Answers: 14
#48

Re: Wet Sloppy Muddy Driveway

03/28/2010 10:00 PM

Do the repair on a summer weekend--and not use driveway for 3 days.Maybe on 2 weekends half length&half length. Dig nothing. Firstly Wirebrush clean. Then put 3" thick plain concrete with SuperPlasticizer for self-compacting and water imperviousness.Make sure there is at least 1" Crown for rainwater drain out .Cure with water spray every day twice-- for 4 weeks .

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 48 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (5); Anonymous Poster (3); argh1984 (5); bakerjohn (2); BiomedWV (1); bwire (6); CaptMoosie (8); digger104 (2); Doogleass (1); Duckinthepond (2); dvmdsc (1); Frank Designs (3); Janissaries (1); kyfilly (1); Michael Rock (1); MUKULMAHANT (1); PWSlack (1); Ric Bennett (1); Rorschach (2); TVP45 (1)

Previous in Forum: Dark Matter   Next in Forum: Comparing Nuclear Reactors - IFR vs. LFTR

Advertisement