Natural Gas a Vehicle Fuel

Yes, this is done, and sometimes in bags on top of buses rather than compressed.

Some very good numbers here- range comparisons and cost comparisons. Although I suspect CNG will track gasoline prices closer as more utilities switch off coal...

Where the hell is it $2.50 for gasoline today? Closer to $3.50! I don't think it will be down to $3 per gallon again.

I don't think he said gas was $2.50 anywhere. He merely used that number as a point above which the CNG was more economical!!!!!

Here in Panama, gasoline is still somewhat less than $3.00 a gallon...

Thanks, Ducon, for the details. Google does no good when one is looking for this level of detail, and real world reviews of the technology. All one gets on Google are shysters, marketing garbage, and fanatics that add nothing to the discussion (actually, I have found Dogpile to be a more productive search engine, and I have about 25 different search engines I use regularly - Google is about 2/3 of the way toward the bottom of the list).

A couple of years ago, here in Panama, the government tried unsuccessfully to introduce CNG for buses and taxis by offering free conversions. The project was poorly managed and some unscrupulous operators were allowed to "scam" the system (the government offered to repair any damages caused by the switchover, and found themselves repairing air conditioners, replacing engines that should have been retired not converted, etc.), creating a lot of negative publicity.

What I am looking for is information exactly like what you have provided, to build a database to use for trying to re-awaken interest in the technology here in Panama, more for a concern over air pollution than a concern over fuel savings.

Can you provide any documentation supporting the 95% conversion rate in Pakistan?

Thank you for the detailed information you have provided.

I have designed and built control systems for CNG in Pakistan for hundreds of refueling stations, Taxis, private motor vehicles, busses and Tuk Tuks can all run on compressed natural gas. We even use the low pressure natural gas to run converted petrol and diesel engines to run the gas compressors, that compress the natural gas. The gas is stored in high pressure tanks in what we call cascade storage.

We Store the gas in 3 separate cascades, so that filling vehicles is more efficient and faster. The way we do this is: We dispense gas to the vehicles in 3 stages, Stage 1 initial fill (this uses the largest cascade for the initial fill into the vehicle. Fill value at this stage could be anywhere from 0 - 3000 psi but usually between 1000 and 2000 psi) Stage 2 medium fill (this is the second stage of the fill, boosting the tank between 2000 and 2500 psi) Stage 3 Final Fill (2500 - 3000 psi) this final fill can come from the cascade storage or the compressor, to do this we use a priority panel on the CNG compressor unit to decide where the gas will go, ie if the cascade is low it will fill the vehicle first before filling the cascades. This is how priority filling works, it is simple but efficient.

If no vehicles are required to be filled, the cascade storage unit will first fill the final stage cascade, then fill the Stage 2 cascade, then the Stage 1 Cascade all to 3600 PSI, to ensure a quick fill for the next customer.

The reason that this is done this way is because; we want to fill a vehicle in the minimum time, stage 1 is the bulk of the gas required for the vehicle, stage 2 gives it that bit more of gas and stage 3 will fill it up to the max capacity.

You don't have to have petrol to start the engines, if they are tuned for gas they start fine on gas.

The cascade storage is usually pumped up to about 3600 PSI and filling the vehicles is done usually in 3 stages.

It is very important that this gas is stored in an approved gas cylinder, because of the the expansion contraction that happens when a cylinder is filled and emptied.

Never attempt to install CNG without professional advise in your vehicle.

Cheers

Joe

Joe-

Thanks a lot- valuable information. Do you have access to any market penetration studies for Pakistan- what percentage of vehicles are actually running on natural gas?

With increased reserves coming from new shale gas extraction techniques, North American natural gas prices are 1/3 the price of oil per unit energy (see plot - red/blue is natural gas, black dotted line is crude oil). This helps keep natural gas prices low. Depending where you buy it, the pump price for vehicular natural gas (with distribution / mark-up) averages $1.90 per gasoline gallon equivalent to as low at perhaps $1.00 for some people with special access/contracts.

Shale gas reserves will only increase that ability of many regions / countries to access clean natural gas locally.

Yes, natural gas is a bit of a pain to store on a vehicle but with better vehicle design, 200+ mile range is very achievable with an OEM vehicle in the near future. GM, Ford and Chrysler / Fiat all have offerings coming via approved partners.

Natural gas has been used in cars of Europe since seventies, when gasoline pricing went high. It was interesting to watch a luxurious Mercedes with ugly rusty tank of natural gas fixed on the roof over driver and passenger sits. What is special about natural gas? Nothing! It is just another fuel only cheaper. Indeed the leniency of natural gas need to be properly adjusted to prevent detonations, but that is nothing special and nothing to think about. It is easy to convert any engine to work with natural gas, unless you want to complicate things to impress the World, which is so common today in the narcissistic society we created.

TMF is going on record again with the following statement. There have been a lot of scam artists promoting the use of hydrogen as a substitute for typical fuels. There have been even more anxious, desperate, and uninformed people who have been conned by these scam artists. There has also been thousands of folks scammed out of many millions of dollars because they were uninformed about the realities of Ponzi schemes. Half truths can be very believable. It is quite easy for me to tell you what you want to hear and actually be saying exactly the opposite of what you "think I am saying".

I have performed the experiments for my self and I am satisfied that if enough money is thrown at the development of the hho as a replacement for diesel and gasoline fuels, the presumed problems will be overcome. Clearly, I am not alone with my opinion, however the naysayers out number us, much like the fools that fall for Ponzi Schemes out number those who walk away from the con. I don't live in a glass house, why don't you come out of your cave. The flesh eating dragons all live on an Island. And believe it or not "hydrogen" is also a "natural gas"!

TMF

That is total nonsense. What a hoot!

Garthh-

You have correctly interpreted my initial intent in this thread- I am looking for specific first-hand knowledge regarding the use of Natural Gas (typically a mixture of methane and butane, although this may vary depending on where you are) in Southeast Asia, based on unsubstantiated reports I have received that this fuel has achieved some pretty significant market penetration. I am NOT looking for anything about other alternative fuels, whether they are based on proven technologies or pipe dreams. I have tried to be very specific about the information I am looking for. I got a very good response from a couple of people here addressing the question asked, but it seems a lot of posters have not read very carefully the original post...

Again sorry Charlie, just couldn't help my self.

Maybe this

http://www.parnell.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=41

is of some help. I had a quick brows and found a few facts and figures. Not sure if it helps but one never knows.

, Ky.

That link is for LPG. Are LPG and CNG 100% interchangeable in these conversions?

Is that "quick brows" referring to your eyebrows?

Excellent link! Thanks. I don't suppose you have access to number of cars currently running on LNG in Australia/New Zealand, would you?

Was there not a link to Government were they showed some data. Not sure now. I'll go back but for now I am

Couldn't fit another thing in.

Way down the track I will have to delve into this myself. I'll just get on to you then and suck brains.

Have one on me, Ky.

Toomuchfun-

I remember your contributions to the earlier discussion, and actually that previous thread is a part of my permanent data base. What I am after is specific "boots on the ground" information about the adoption of the technology in Southeast Asia. I am pretty much sold CNG as an appropriate automotive fuel personally (although my focus us more on air pollution issues rather than economic transportation), but have to overcome some pretty negative attitudes here in Panama.

Thank you for your contributions.

tcmtech- valuable information about service life and your perception of the source of extended service life. You are actually working with propane? My understanding has been that most natural gas mixtures are methane/butane, because of higher energy density- I would think propane would require a bit more modification than "normal" natural gas...

I have been playing/experimenting with and driving on it as a primary fuel for some time now, 110,000+ miles. I have ran it on four daily driver pickups I have owned, three dual fuel and one dedicated, over the last ten years.

From my personal experience I can tell you that unfortunately the public perception of both propane and CNG/LNG is loaded with myths and misinformation as shown earlier about the comment of lack of proper cylinder lubrication being just one example.

Here is my writeup on my last conversion of a Mazda B2600 to full propane operation. http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/59332

I will never claim myself to be an expert but I will say I have considerably more knowledge and first hand experience than the average person off the street has!

Somehow I missed that thread- good stuff. I think, though, here in Panama, LNG is most likely the easiest alternative fuel to come up with. Which is one of the primary reasons I focus on it.

LNG is a practical fuel and does provide the power to volume ratio that does make it a good alternative fuel. If I could get it here cheaply I would certainly be experimenting with it and likely using it if the cost per mile worked out favorably.

Being pure natural gas, like that from an LNG source, favors similar engine set ups to what propane works best on like the 10:1 - 14:1 compression ratio range and more aggressive cam profiles plus works perfectly with the same vapor carburetors and control systems for me it would be a direct drop in fuel alterative. The only tweak I would need to switch between the two would be changing the base A/F ratio setting of the vapor mixer. As for the LNG tank I would only need one additional regulator to drop the higher pressure output of the LNG tank down to the level the propane vaporizer needs but its size and weight are still similar to that of a propane tank system.

However the problem with CNG is different. Being its "fluffed up" with air it cant be compressed into a liquid and the added air also reduces the effective energy per unit of volume while causing the mixers A/F ratio to need to be set much richer due to the natural gas being already diluted with air before reaches the mixer.

That added air impurity is what hinders common utility sourced natural gas from becoming a more dominant alternative fuel. The liquid form is very viable and easily meets the needs for the power and range capacity that gasoline and diesel fuel give but unfortunately the high pressure vapor form with the added air des not due to the difference in the tank size and pressure requirements needed to get the same effective power and range with it.

Thanks tcmtech- more valuable information.

Several of our local utilities tried this back in the 1980's. Worked fine except for reduced range and power. One of the other problems was pre-ignition.

However the technology to run an ICE on propane or natural gas though simple is inefficient and outdated and not because of the fuel, but because of the standard reciprocating piston engines used.

A blade-less turbine engine (Tesla style) is three times more efficient (over ninety per cent) will operate on any fuel (including hydrogen) and can be built in any machine shop.

Dragon

I agree- and have lamented elsewhere the fact that Chrysler just stopped work on their turbine car back in the mid 1960's. The issue is, how to you sell a population of limited financial resources to invest in a new engine technology?

Hi Charlie

I'm on the case but lack the time to respond here proper. I am working on a paper (on and off) and would not publish here because it would jeopardize any future relationships. Besides, being shredded in public, by amateurs is not a pastime of mine. This is not to say that the academy will look upon me with favoritism but at least they would be more in a position to evaluate.

All I'll say is that the HHO guys, the hands on tinkerers, will think "why didn't we think of this approach" and then tune in and say "we told you so". It is right before our eyes but could have only been thought of since the existence of certain materials and manufacturing processes,

Something will come out of splitting water or in my case has. New technologies can be very disruptive and letting them take over the old guard will cause friction. I would not mind being a guest of honor at the wedding though. That is what is stopping me (progress) not the technical challenges. Only with some very strong buddies would I go to war over this.

You know, I could have just shut up and not comment at all but I have been following this thread since it started. I commented now so to put a bit of pressure on myself to get my paper water tight. (pun intended).

I also think that I have not missed one thread regarding browns gas (that suit you better Russ?) and arguments, dissertations by Ken (blink) have helped me greatly. But the mess and the bad style that these posts create is not what I am after.

Other things are taking priority and the next day others and so on. Any one know of a second hand time machine on Ebay maybe? The other I will build, one day.

Time will tell, Ky.

I am no longer trying to sell anybody anything, nor defend this machine. I am simply going to build it, use it and to hell with those who want to stay in the 1800's.

No offense to any on this site.

Dragon

A Tesla turbine might be 90% efficient as a hydraulic turbine or a pump (but I doubt it), but never as a combustion engine, because it is further limited by Carnot cycle efficiencies.

I bet H14 has an opening :D

You must be using some very idiosyncratic definition(s) of efficiency. And weird vocabulary, too: what's a "turbine engine"?; it's either one or the other, not both.

Natural Gas is a fine fuel

there are a few things required for widespread implementation:

Refueling infrastructure being foremost on the list. a compressor for home use would be dandy [$5k ]

some fleets have converted their light duty delivery trucks to NG, heavy duty trucks are not always suitable for conversion, due to the lower power output. optimized engine designs need to be available [where is tcmtech?]

Affordable high pressure safe storage tanks, the tanks can be similar to composite scuba tanks

.

the dual fuel systems are fine, other than the weight & loss of storage space

I just did a google search for home natural gas compressors, most of the sites don't mention pricing, or say call for a quote. So what brand is the norm and is UL or "whatever" certified so one doesn't have to worry about voiding one's homeowners insurance policy?

Also, why are these things so expensive? $5000 isn't something many people are going to rush to buy, and infrastructure isn't in place in the meanwhile. . . so is there an opportunity here that can be exploited or is it just that expensive to produce these compressors?

ps- this hydrogen discussion that is going on is not relevant to this discussion so save it for the right place and time please. Enough said.

You could probably use a few different fairly common compressors, but you need the certifications or it will void your home owners insurance. Tanks are another area where the certification greatly increases the price of a conversion. These issues are also exacerbated by natural gas as delivered to your house is diluted, for safety.

I probably wrong for engaging the HHO guys, but we deal in reality [for the most part] on this site, we certainly don't want to be a haven for these guys to spout their unsupported wishful thinking unchallenged. If there is real data bring it on, but there is never more than vague impressions & unfounded assumptions...

Yes....

In Delhi, the Delhi Transport Corporation operates the worlds largest fleet of CNG (compressed Natural Gas) buses. The buses are low floor and a mix of A/C as ell as non-A/C. The use of CNG is mandated for the public transport system in Delhi as well as for the city of Ahmedabad in the state of Gujarat.

In India CNG costs are at Rs. Rs 31.47 per kg (US$0.68 ) per kg compared with Rs. 55.00 (US$ 1.621) per liter of petrol (prices as of Aug. 2010 in Mumbai, India). The cost saving is immense along with reduced emissions and environmentally friendlier cars.

aniltiwari-

Wow! Another response that actually addresses the question asked! Thank you very, very much. This is valuable information. What about taxis, and private vehicles? Any data on market penetration within the private sector?

Charlie

Hi cwarner...

All public transport in Delhi runs on CNG vis taxis, school buses, Staff busses carrying office goers, the 3-wheeled auto rickshaws, mini trucks etc. This way the the black haze (diesel smog) over the city vanished 5-years ago including my black cough. CNG is piped into all large hotels & hospitals as well.

THAT is what I would like to see happen in Panama, although we could probably fit the population of our entire country in about 10% of your city...

Hi cwarner.....yes, India is a large country and the capital city of Delhi has about 60million registered private cars out of which approx 20% run on CNG and some on LPG.

Many indian auto makers do sell models with dual fuel arrange ments i.e. both pertrol & CNG, LPG etc. However, inspite of huge natural gas reserves the Govt of India is not keen to encourage use of CNG as they prefer converting CNG to fertilizer....and in my younger days i've built Heavy Water Plants alongside fertiliser plants as the Natural Gas available here contains about 130 ppm of Heavy Hydrogen.

Excellent, Bob! This is exactly the sort of information I am looking for! Who owns the presentation? I would like to use parts of it (with proper citation, of course), but I don't want to violate any copyright issues...

Charlie

Here in the Dom. Rep. most cars run on LPG. Conversion is easy as there are no regulations. It consists mainly of a converter which runs to your cooling system to warm the gas up. The simplest set up consists of a converter, home type stove tank and hoses that pass through the air filter and into carb. Surprisingly there are very few problems/accidents involving gas here. I have used it for years with no problem and the savings are great. They are now starting to convert to LNG.

I don't think this will ever be big in the states due to safety issues which will lead to high costs. Also you need filling stations just as you have gas stations, Trust me, neighborhoods don't really want them close!

Thanks, DGCYS- the Domincan Republic is actually closer to my market of interest than the US- I am in Panama. Do you have any sort of reference documentation that could substantiate that "most cars in the Dominican Republic run on LPG"?

Woops sorry, have just replaced computer and forgot to log on, my reply was #44.

LNG is a great fuel. So is LPG and Hydrogen, but I hate to burst your bubble. We can all sing the praises of these fuels and how it will make our lives so much better, but we will never see these wonders ourselves as long as the oil companies have anything to say about it. They have billions of dollars invested in oil production and are not about to scrap it in favor of cheaper alternate fuel systems. So quit dreaming and accept reality. Countries like India have not invested heavily in oil, so it is easy for them to switch to LNG.

The only issue not mentioned is that LPG is a hydrocarbon which CNG is not as it is CH4 and air. So LPG will pollute more than the CNG, though both will produce CO2.

CH4 is not a hydrocarbon?

Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

I have never heard of 'fluffing up' CNG with air. As it is a general classification CNG could include biogas or come from another impure source possibly that is what is meant.

As it has not been through the LNG cycle it would not necessarily be as pure as LNG is.

Russ