Magnetic Gas Mileage Solutions?

I think your efforts are futile. They must know their product is a scam if it is as you described it.

Your efforts would be more worthwhile if you helped friends who are looking into this or other scams like it.

Well, oops

"but problems can arise if you air things out to third parties"

As a professional in the water field, I was often asked for advice on products of dubious nature and very readily gave them my best shot. The water industry was plagued by such magnetic devices to control water softening. One claim was that the Gauss applied to the water changed the angle of the water bond. I turned the problem over to a physicist who read the literature supporting the device from a professional engineer (mostly anecdotal) and laughed before dismissing the device as bunk. The devices were banned on government projects as a result. They are still on the market to an unsuspecting public and rear their ugly heads every year or so in different areas.

A second device Aztec brand was claiming ionizing water. If you asked for supporting literature you were provided with a bunch of jibberish about nucleating water molecules. They were more a placebo and never worked. A class law suite was launched by customers and they were removed from the market in Ontario, Canada. The Aztec company was out of US and I am not sure what happened to them. These were not cheap devices. I did take one apart to see what was in the black box provided. It consisted of two brass rods with knobs to the outside. By turning the knobs you adjusted the water quality...yeah sure. Other similar devices are out there. Don't let me expound on the water witching business.

The point is that we should not be afraid to offer advice on bunkum devices. As a project manager at the time, I refused the introduction of any device with unsupported scientific literature. Snake oil is still snake oil and the magnetic devices to reduce gas consumption seem unsupported. I would support OPs email and his ability to voice his opinion; especially, if the device does not have credible support. Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. Opinions remain opinions but it is not up to the person giving that opinion to provide support if it is not available. Give them hell. No fear.

I think you may have already put your neck in the noose. Your personal email to the company is "personal". Now you've brought it to a public forum I'm not sure where you stand.

It looks to me like they have their butts covered............they make no claims and won't even tell you how to put it on.

It kind of looks to me, that, since they're in the magnet business, all they're saying is that, we've got one to put around your fuel line if you happen to believe in this stuff.

Just my opinion, but I think you were a little harsh on them, since they practically discredit the device in their own write up.

The 1/2 to 4 mile a gallon difference, probably came from wishful thinking, with the primary reason being a slight change in driving habits, because they wanted it to work.

It kind of looks to me, that, since they're in the magnet business, all they're saying is that, we've got one to put around your fuel line if you happen to believe in this stuff.

Just my opinion, but I think you were a little harsh on them, since they practically discredit the device in their own write up.

I think you are being too easy on them. I think, that as a magnet vendor they should be held to a higher standard, because the rest of their site gives the impression that they know at least something about magnets. If they report test results (of 1/2 to 4mpg) and say that many people believe they work, they should, if honest, report that the EPA has tested such devices with very sophisticated and reliable equipment and found there to be no effect whatsoever, exactly as the science would predict. That is the very least they should do, if they have any interest in appearing to have integrity. Far better, however, to avoid selling this crap, just as most ethical magnet vendors avoid such stuff.

Even Northern equipment, which also sells such stuff (along with more outrageous claims) should know better. But at least they have the excuse of being non-specialized, non-scientific vendors selling to an unsophisticated audience, and can reasonably say "We are just a retailer, and cannot possibly verify every claim made by every vendor." The magnet company is the manufacturer and promoter of this product, so has the ethical obligation to do real testing to verify claims. They have legal "truth in advertising" responsibilities. They are simply cashing in on public stupidity, providing a "better deal" than other vendors by providing $.0.00 of value for $15, whereas others provide $0.00 of value for $19.95.

If they want to appear to be a magnet vendor with integrity, they should not be selling these things. Period. That the buyers are fools is no excuse. It is not OK for a medical doctor to sell you magnets to cure cancer, with the excuse that "some people believe they work". The Nigerian prince email scams cannot be excused because they invoke the Darwin principle. There are loads of very good, worthwhile citizens who may be unsophisticated but should still have protection from fraud. I trust that once this is brought to their attention, they will stop selling these devices.

Taking a jaundiced view of this: It is well known in the fraud biz in general that it is better to make claims that seem reasonable and not outrageous. (Outrageous claims scare too many people away, although they can rope in more of the really stupid ones.) Sophisticated fraudsters make more reasonable claims, and give the appearance of being a little skeptical, so that the target says "Sure I'll try one... heck these folks sound honest... and what's 15 bucks?" I hope this company is not intentionally defrauding people, but instead, has simply failed to perform due dilligence.

There has been so much said about fuel line magnets in the popular press that it is very hard to believe that this company thinks they are offering any value at all for 15 bucks.

I think that Mikerho is going easy in them.

they practically discredit the device in their own write up.

Insufficiently. And why are they selling it? Can they possibly think their test routine is better than the EPA's? Other magnet vendors dismiss this crap, and they should too.

My hope is that this company is will respond to Mike's letter, and refrain from selling garbage. I hope it's just a slip-up.

Did you get to this part? http://www.kjmagnetics.com/fuelmagnet.asp. My personal assumption, after reading that, is that they don't work.

One question that we get all the time is how to use magnets on an automobile fuel line to improve gas mileage. There are many manufacturers out there selling "specialized" devices with "monopole" (yeah, right) magnets, magnets that are specially "tuned" (again, yeah, right) or other glorified claims that make their product special. Well, we're here to tell you that these glorified claims are untrue.

I wouldn't buy one after reading their write up. To me, all they're saying, is that we get requests, and if you want to invest in this crap, buy it from us.........at least they're real magnets.

Hell, you can only go so far in keeping a fool and his money together.........I think they've satisfied the criteria.

I think they got requests and questions regarding fuel line magnets and how to construct them.........and said, what the hell, lets just make some like what's already out there, and make no claims whatsoever as to their effectiveness.

and make no claims whatsoever as to their effectiveness.

Except they do make claims. (See my response to Lynn.)

A sheet metal fabricator who starts to sell turbinators because others do is just as unethical as any other turbinator manufacturer, no matter how many wobbly words are inserted in the marketing materials: "We don't think it works, but our guys are getting improvements..." "We think it 'makes sense' to install it under the carburetor."

They say: Well, we're here to tell you that these glorified claims are untrue. (... strongly implying that their unglorified claims of 1/2-2 mpg are true.) What they are here to do is sell you a fuel line magnet device in a way that is a little more subtle than the real whackos employ. Otherwise, why does it take up a couple pages of their website?

I am no doubt making a mountain of a mole hill. But when you search for technical info on "hydrogen, engines" and most of the hits are about HHO, something is wrong. Pseudoscience is crushing science.

I hope that you put as much energy into things that are important as you have put into this meaningless thread.

I think it has meaning to Mikerho. But your point is well-taken: this can be a time sink.

The bigger issues for me: the squelching of science by pseudo science; the evaporation of ethics in business.

The stuff immediately important to me (making a living, for example) is not so important on a global scale... and there are 24 hours in a day.

Some have implied that certain colors in the spectrum can enhance/elevate mood, help harness spiritual energy, etc. I have spoken to several people that have indeed felt, "better" after repainting rooms in certain colors.

If you decide to repaint..........call me! Free color consultation with every job.

I think you have described their stance mostly...

Here is the reply to my email to them:

Dear xxxx,

If you click the link "Our View on Saving Fuel with Magnets", you'll see that we make no claims about the effectiveness of the fuel magnets. We are just giving people a less expensive alternative to the ridiculously priced alternatives out there that make outrageous claims about how great their devices work.

I'm of a mind to stay with the views of Tornado and MoronicBumble on this and every last (1) Outright scammer and (2) Wishy-washy company that will still take advantage of uninformed individuals, will hear from me!

Still, I appreciate your input.

They could have been better, but they also could have been a lot worse.

Like I said, I wouldn't buy one based on their writeup, but I could see where someone else might.........I'd still buy magnets from them though.

I think you went completely overboard. But, I don't see any slander.

I'd buy magnets from them before anyone else (if I were going to buy them, which I'm not) because they are at least honest.

"We do not make any claims or guarantees to the effectiveness of the magnets increasing your fuel mileage"

It looks like they are selling these because they sell magnets of all types and see a small market populated with fools who have money.

"We do not make any claims or guarantees to the effectiveness of the magnets increasing your fuel mileage"

But they write:

We are offering ours at the bargain price of $15.00. If they improve your fuel mileage by even a little bit, it won't take long for the magnets to pay for themselves.

Bargain? For something that does nothing, as shown by the EPA and others many, many times?

Others instruct you to install the magnets as close to the engine as possible. This seems to make sense, so we recommend it as well.

Seems to make sense? What makes sense is to avoid installation completely, because there is no reason to believe that magnets have any effect whatsoever on fuel efficiency.

On 4 of the 6 vehicles tested, the regular driver noted improved fuel mileage by 1/2 to 2 miles per gallon.

Drivers are famous for attributing fuel mileage improvements to all manner of things that have no effect. HHO, turbinators, magnets, etc. Testimonials abound.

Two of these say that it took about 2 months to notice improvement, which is a claim made by other manufacturers.

The reason manufacturers of fuel-saving widgets make this claim is to prevent dyno tests from being made. They say, (in response to a dyno test that shows no gain) "Well, you need to wait 2 months -- that's why the improvement did not show up." A/B dyno tests must be done on the same or subsequent days to avoid all the things that can change with time: tire wear (which produces mileage increases) changes in tuning (which can change fuel efficiency either way) reduction of friction from engine break-in, etc, etc.

That magnets would have any effect on an organic molecule is a big, big, stretch. But to imagine a system in which the effect can require two months (while the fuel is exposed to the magnet effect for only a second or two) takes a really unique form of imagination. Are the magnets somehow affecting the fuel that is being refined today and will show up in your vehicle in two months??? The magnet "knows" which bit of fuel will be yours, no doubt.

These are utterly absurd claims.

Conclusive? Hardly. But it does make us believe that there is a possibility that strong magnetic fields may improve fuel mileage.

Why not mention that the EPA and others have said that these devices have no effect whatsoever, and that theory says they should have no effect whatsoever. Fact is, strong magnets do not effect fuel mileage. Claiming otherwise would require extraordinary proof... but even one legitimate EPA-supervised test would be enough to say "Let's look into it." There has been no such test. When there is both abundant test proof against and no imaginable theoretical basis for gains, then saying that their device "may improve fuel mileage" is unreasonable.

There are legitimate magnet vendors who tell it like it is, and there are many who do not sell fuel line magnets. I hope Mike's letter helps this vendor see the light.

"Two of these say that it took about 2 months to notice improvement, which is a claim made by other manufacturers."

That makes sense to me. They're probably stainless steel fuel lines. Everybody knows that stainless steel is not "magnetable", so it would take time for the magnetic energy to "soak" through the line and get to the gas.

^{_{And that is why I'll never do two shows a night.}}

It's all codswallop.

And it would be a surprise of the vendor took any notice of incoming e-mails whatsoever. After all, it is not in the vendor's interest to do anything that might reduce sales!

This seems to be a fairly benign advertisement from a magnet supplier. I don't think they are a magnet manufacturer who would be more likely to describe their parts with strictly scientific specifications.

This supplier is careful to only suggest that some "people believe" they cause increased fuel economy or have water softening properties. Both are junk science scams of course. One can argue that even though there are fuel filters, the magnets could "trap" magnetic metal particles travelling in the fuel line. While magnets are know to be very effective traps when used in the bottom of oil and transmission pans, the fuel line benefits seem trivial at best.

A warning to them that it hurts their credibility to even suggest junk science applications is perfectly appropriate IMO. Since you are completely free to choose where you spend your money, telling them they lost your business because of their statements is also appropriate. Whether or not they choose to change their position will indicate if they care about their credibility.

Good for you.

Northern Equipment sells such trash, and I have not yet written them (and doing so may not work its way up my todo list)... but I should.

Thanks everyone, esp for the CYA advice

No, you are right on! The world is full of these devices with only subective evaluation instead instead of rigiorous data thar can be examined and duplicated. I did not see any claims or data on their website. They need to be called out on this.