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Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 7:01 AM

I just read this below on the internet:

" Electricity is supplied to your home in the form of alternating current and voltage. This means that the voltage and current rise and fall continuously, many times each second. Electricity is used most efficiently when the voltage and current rise and fall together, with their peaks occurring at the same moments in time.

In a household environment some appliances will cause a difference between the times at which the voltage and current peaks occur. If this difference is significant it will reduce the efficiency of energy usage for those appliances. You can improve this situation by using an Energy Wizard. The device works by helping to reduce these time differences, which in turn reduces inefficiency and losses, making your appliances work more efficiently. "

I understand: V and I need to have the peak at same time for optimal W.

Can the electric experts let me know is this is true, or maybe does not apply to the UK because of good energy management on the grid (so the peaks are synched), or we all should have a filter to put them right on our homes ?

what sort of filter do we need to synch V and I ? would the filter not use W to try to synch the V and I ?

Therefore would this filter be an economical item to have after all ?

Thank you and all the best for all those that contribute for the CR4 website.

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#1

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 7:30 AM

This device is every bit as effective as the fuel line magnets discussed in another thread at separating a fool from his money.

The beauty of this device for the seller is that the average home owner has no way to test the effectiveness of the device.

Don't waste your money.

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 9:32 AM

What about the placebo effect?

I install one of these devices.........with my new found electrical awareness, I run around for a month turning off lights and every other device that I'm not using........badda bing badda boom......I just dropped my power bill by 15%. Magic!

Same with the fuel line magnets.......get one, and the next thing you know, you're driving the speed limit, rolling up to lights instead of slamming on brakes......next thing you know, you're getting 4-5 miles more out of a gallon......Bingo!!!!!

So.........if these things change behavior to produce the desired effect, are they still a rip off?

Crawls back into alien spacecraft and leaves quickly.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 9:39 AM

"What about the placebo effect"

How the hell are you going to swallow it?

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 9:59 AM

With a cup of HHO, of course.

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#27
In reply to #10

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 4:38 PM

LSQEET

LETS GO EAT.......

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 10:04 AM

Belief is powerful medicine, even if the treatment itself is a sham.

From Scientific American. I think it could carry over to these things..........but we should probably quit while we're ahead.

So far this new year, I've only had one post deleted by admin.

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#21
In reply to #8

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 5:36 AM

How the hell are you going to swallow it?

Cut the legs off the inductor very close to the body: it's probably only just big enough for the manufacturers to be able to measure a positive effect under ideal circumstances: i.e. a small capacitive load.

(OR, have I got this the wrong way round: are most domestic appliances predominantly inductive loads?)

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#2

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 8:17 AM

As far as I know about "Energy Wizard" or whatever an energy saver device is called, inside a box is just an LED and a capacitor for reactive power. the V and I peaks are offset when there is a difference between the reactive power produced and consumed.

Usually home users are not charged for the reactive power so it does not matter whether the power factor is 0.9 or 0.7. In this case the utility company deals with it.

Large industrial consumers on the other hand are charged for the reactive power consumed.

It is true that having low power factor the consumer draws a bit larger current but the active power consumed does not change significantly.

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#12
In reply to #2

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 10:10 AM

...so there is no return to be made on the investment. Exactly! GA

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#3

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 8:38 AM

Follow lynlynch's advice, don't waste your money. You can get a lot of high efficiency lamps for what it will cost, they will make a saving.

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#4

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 9:13 AM

Previous postings suggest "don't waste your money". I agree.

As used in one previous posting, the proper term for what you are asking about is "POWER FACTOR". If you are interested in learning more then that is a good term to do searches on. At a large commercial facility it can save a lot of money to keep the power factor under control. The average home owner would never need to worry about it.

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#15
In reply to #4

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 10:53 AM

Let's emphasize:

"The average home owner would NEVER need to worry about it."

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#5

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 9:15 AM

This device is called "Electro Viagrant". Improves the efficency and performance of your appliance. It is required mostly for very old system- say more than 60 years may be.

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#7

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 9:37 AM

If you really want to save money on your electric bills, invest in a power meter.

One such meter is the kill-a-watt meter. This is not an endorsement, it's just the name of the one I bought.

With it you can measure voltage, amperage, wattage, VA, frequency, power factor and KwH consumed by any 115 volt appliance.

I drove my wife crazy when I first got mine. She tired rapidly of my reports on how much power the bedroom lamp consumed.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 9:59 AM

Maybe she has a preference for the bedroom lamp being off?

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 10:11 AM

Interesting suggestion.

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#16
In reply to #7

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 10:49 PM

But remember to consult somebody if you experience purely resistive load lasting more than 4 hours.

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#22
In reply to #16

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 6:42 AM
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#28
In reply to #7

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 4:44 PM

GA, mine too.....I told her that is what the blinds are for when its light out!

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#14

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/05/2011 10:36 AM

Like many scams, there is a kernel of truth here that has been warped to make a sale. The effect of the time change between voltage and current peaks is called the power factor. (I won't go into the details how one calculates the power factor. If you want to, Wikipedia does have a good explanation that will walk you through the calculation.) Most of the electric loads in your home do not produce a current lag that makes this inefficient drawing of current. AC motors can produce a significant current lag but only under certain conditions.

The easiest to understand and test example of the power factor effect comes from seeing what happens with a drill press. Lets think about drilling into something very durable, like steel. When the motor is first turned ON the drill bit is spinning but not in contact with the steel. In this unloaded condition the power factor is very poor but the current is still close to the rated current of the motor. With the exception of the heat produced by the motor windings, the air being blown to keep the motor cool and the bearing frictions happening very little real work is happening. Once the drill bit starts to cut steel more real work happens, the power factor improves but the actual current magnitude does not significantly increase. As you lean harder into the steel, the drill bit tries to do more work and the power factor improves even more but only to the limit of work that the motor can provide. (You also have other problems in the quality of the cut but that's not the topic here.)

Now why is this device a scam for a homeowner? You will only have a poor power factor problem if the motors in your house are ON and not doing any work. Your refrigerator, air conditioner, washing machine, etc. all have motors that are attached to their loads so anytime these motors are used they do not have a poor power factor. Even if you have a workshop in your house the tools poor power factor condition will only happen while your tool is ON but not doing a job. Most people don't leave these tools ON unless they are moments away from doing some work.

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#17

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 12:35 AM

Only resistive loads have voltage and current waveforms overlapping. Generally inductive loads like motor, transformers do cause current flow peaking at different position and often power factor correction scheme is used to make use of Energy uniformly in time with least possible loss. Perhaps you need to look into these words "Power factor correction" in search engines for more information.

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#23
In reply to #17

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 6:45 AM

Why should the original poster install power factor correction if the supply cable is opeating well under its maximum capacity an the utility company doesn't charge for low power factor? Where is the payback on the required investment?

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 12:04 PM

Power factor word is not for total power in use but relates to, how power is used in one cycle of 60Hz or 50Hz or 400Hz frequency of the power source and irrespective of the amount of load in question. It is about load and power wastage.

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#18

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 12:58 AM

I'll summarize...

  1. The effect they drone on about (without mentioning by name for some reason) is called "power factor" (pf). Well known, nothing new, part of the phenomenon we call "electrical distribution and use". No big deal, it's not the world-changing energy-wasting condition they make it out to be.
  2. Poor pf does cause a small amount of energy to be wasted. But not at YOUR end of the wire. It causes the power utility to have to deliver MORE power to you than they can bill you for. The losses are in the power transmission and distribution system such as wires, transformers etc. that need to be bigger in order to deliver the extra current that is represented by that time lag, the "reactive current". So for large industrial customers, they install expensive metering systems that measure the effects of poor pf, called kVARs (kilo Volt-Amperes Reactive), and bill them a surcharge based on the extra demands their poor pf put onto the grid. But there is little measurable effect of the poor pf on the net efficiency of the offending loads themselves.
  3. Residential consumers represent a small percentage of the actual load on a distribution grid system. The cost of installing and reading the kVAR demand metering systems necessary to recoup some of the transmission losses far exceeds the return on investment. In other words, it's cheaper for the power utility to ignore the effects of poor pf in residential applications than it is to try to bill for it.
  4. Doing ANYTHING to improve the pf of a residential service, such as magic boxes like this, is not going to affect your energy bill in any significant way. Technically, you will be helping out the power company in some infinitesimally small way and they will see some benefit if they have a powerful enough economic microscope to find it, but they will not even bother to thank you, let alone reduce your bill.
  5. Another thing they fail to mention is that the only way to truly affect the power factor of a device (motor) that is causing it to be poor, is to add VARs at the load itself. But the devices they sell are added to the service entrance. In order to avoid some very damaging effects of OVER CORRECTING, i.e. adding too many VARS, they are forced to use very small capacitors. In other words they provide only just enough capacitance to legally say it is there, but the amount is insignificant even if it were to be helpful to the utility.
  6. So in conclusion, as mentioned above, the only REAL purpose of these devices is to separate the ignorant from their hard earned money. Mind you, I'm not meaning "ignorant" in a demeaning way. It just means that most people are untrained and therefore innocently unaware of the way it all works and these charlatans are taking advantage of that fact.
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#19

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 1:10 AM

Voltage and current could be in phase, but if you have pure resistive load, which never happens, so if it is capacity type of load the current rises earlier than voltage and if inductive load than voltage rises earlier than current. Indeed that indicates that we need to balance our receiver of electricity or we pay more than we should for the electricity. Balancing is simple because you just to add a capacitor or induction coil and got perfect matching of the load to supply line.

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#20

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 1:53 AM

Got a phone call few weeks ago- caller said "you have been chosen to receive 30% saving on your power bill for the rest of your life, Mr Neil Kwyrer"- & so on- after a few minutes I woke up & realised it was 1 of those boxes with a couple caps inside which do nothing to save power or increase efficiency, but hurt wallet- my next words were" I've just realised what this is about- it's a scam- goodbye!".

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#24

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 7:11 AM

It is worth while to power factor correct fluorescent ballasts and refrigeration in a 'typical household'. Particularly so if you are 'off grid'.

You will however have to buy a Lyn type device, (not the bed lamp, or wife), or a dynamometer watt meter and a box of capacitors to do it though.

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#26

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/06/2011 3:57 PM

it is a myth, like all the idiots buying pure sine wave inverters, the fluctuation in voltage is a much as 30 volts tested at different times of the day. as no household appliances fail with this fluctuation logic and common sense tells you first that the minimal voltage variance in inverters covered by pure over modified sine wave is moot. so too energy regulators of such a kind suffer the same moot variance.

if surge is the issue then there are only two types of surge protection, one that shuts of the power, and a UPS, as such a battery backup system is required so you always feed from the battery and the power simply operates a battery charger. A UPS or true power controller is simply a charger - battery and inverter all neatly packaged in a single unit, Filters or wave correctors for want of a better term are just rubbish in a domestic household as only non earthed items are affected buy power drain. EG your lights "may" dim but your TV still functions, where a tv goes off for a second that is not a fluctuation, it is an iterruption, something completely different.

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#29

Re: Voltage Vs Current Peaks

01/08/2011 10:24 PM

The amount of power factor correction needed is a function of the reactance of the load.

If your loads are close to 1.0 power factor and you add a bunch of capacitance, you are actually making the situation worse.

As the rest of the troops say, it is a way to seperate a fool from his money, unless you are in a HEAVY industrial situation where you are drawing thousands of amps.

Bill

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