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VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/06/2011 9:52 AM

I have a battery bank that consists of a bank of 6 trojan batteries in series paraleled to another 6 series connected bank.

I have a diesel engine that I have been running on veg oil that gives me apprx 60 hp. I use the hot coolant from the engine for a source of heat and I want to be able to charge this bank with my diesel running an alternator or alternators. I have looked into using the engine to run a hydraulic pump and then using a hydraulic motor to turn a generator head but there are speed control problems associated with that set up. I want to use my engine bank set up to heat water for in floor heating and to run led lights for growing vegetables..I went to school for electrical engineering back in 85 and stumbled into business and have not worked in the trade but I do have an understanding of electricity although it has been 20 years..lol....My question is if as an engineer you had a free running diesel motor what would be the most efficient way to charge this bank of batteries...Thank you in advance for your time..

Sheldon

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#1

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 10:05 AM

vw diesel engine running on free fuel

First off, putting Semitics aside. Lets get one thing straight, nothing is free

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 10:28 AM

Pardon, do you mean semantics?

Anyway, GA. Nothimg is free friend.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 11:04 AM

Yes, semantics,

that was spell checker gave me for choices. And if I have to second check cr4 spell checker, then there seems to be a problem with the spell checker then.

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#14
In reply to #4

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/07/2011 1:14 AM

Nothing can be free surely , but if you are able to use renewable energy in some form to combine with others, then you can get almost free energy. I will advise , do vegetation, generate biomass, use gas to run engine, generate DC power, charge battery bank and invert to AC for use. Vegetation growth can be increased by use of violet light for sunless period, night. If it is in green house , then carbon dioxide of engine can used up by the vegetation. There are endless possibilities and one has to suit it as per site conditions. But ultimate energy input has to be sun for almost free energy. Places where wind energy or sunlight is not there sufficiently , low ambient temperature, vegetation/biomass/Veg oil route are to be used. Hot water of engine coolant can certainly warm up the green house soil. Higher growth in vegetation be under controlled condition of light/temperature/humidity. We can get free energy , well almost free.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/07/2011 8:44 AM

I like to look at it not as free, but a profitable business adventure.

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#21
In reply to #14

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/07/2011 11:06 AM

Test of exhaust to check levels of CO which is poisonous.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/co2.html

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#17
In reply to #1

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/07/2011 8:58 AM

Does that mean I am really paying for sex with women, even though I thought its been free all of these years? hehe

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/07/2011 10:03 AM

Does that mean I am really paying for sex with women, even though I thought its been free all of these years?

no, that's called charity

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#3

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 10:32 AM

Why sod about wih hydraulics? Use the alternator on the engine and use that to charge the batteries, just like in the vehicle the engine is suited for.

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#5

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 1:00 PM

Excellent idea. Given some water jacketing around the exhaust (in addition to the normal coolant passages) you could get 85% overall system efficiency or so, with what would otherwise be waste heat made useful for heating your house.

You didn't say weather your Trojans are 6,8, or 12 volt. Assuming 12, then your system is 72 volt. That is within the range that an automotive alternator can produce, if you use an external regulator. However a 200 amp alternator producing 72 volts would be 14.4 kW, which would not be much load for your engine -- but it would work, and some of the engine efficiency loss (from running at low load) would be compensated by relatively more waste heat -- which can be valuable only if you can use it. However, most 200 amp alternators are not rated for 200 A continuously --I doubt that most would produce more than 50 amps continuously. They are also inefficient, as electrical machines go.

Efficiency of the alternator or generator is somewhat important, because you probably won't water jacket it, and it probably wouldn't run hot enough to be useful for heating purposes. The most efficient generators are permanent magnet brushless dc machines, but large ones are expensive. Regulation would be by automated control of rpm, and you would probably have to build you own controller with servos to accomplish that.

Simpler and not too much less efficient would be to buy a generator head of the appropriate size for the engine. The easiest to find are for household/small business generation, and they produce AC at voltages and frequencies appropriate for the countries where sold. An AC (input) charger is then used to keep the batteries charged. Such a charger should be programmable, and will automatically change its charging regime (from constant current to constant voltage, etc) as required. The head would be driven directly or by belt drive. (Here's a small generator head.)

A brushless DC PM machine can be about 95% efficient, and there is virtually no loss between the machine and the batteries (just some heavy diodes). A typical generator head will be less than 90% efficient. (Auto alternators are only about 65-70% efficient -- their main attribute is light weight and small size). The AC input charger will be 85%-90% efficient.

The AC generator head solution would be quick and easy, and the efficiency is probably good enough for your needs. The brushless PM DC solution would be more efficient but much more expensive, and would require a lot of design, fabrication, and debug time.

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#15
In reply to #5

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/07/2011 5:15 AM

I am very interested in this response as I had an idea in a simalar vein for heating a driveway by water jacketing an IC engine and putting the power into a generator which could then be used to power some underdriveway heating elements.

Thank you for your excellent answer and confirming my thoughts that by water jacketing the engine and useing this heat you can expect to get 70%+ output from the engine.

Oliver Dunthorne

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#6

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 1:25 PM

Excellent use of waste oil Sheldon, MB's suggestion regarding the generator is the best use of the power available.
You may consider exporting power to your utility company.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 3:19 PM

The only flaw I can see (other than the use of a hydraulic pump as PWSlack said), is the supply of "free" fuel. Biodeisel has become very popular around here (San Francisco Bay Area) with the hippie crowd, now there is actually a shortage of usable waste fats, oils and grease (collectively now referred to as FOG) used to make it! I worked on a project last year for a local wastewater treatment plant that is making electricity from their digester gasses. They need a small amount of FOG to activate it periodically, but what once came in "free" for disposal is now a commodity. So they now actually have to PAY the companies that empty restaurant grease traps to divert a tanker full to them once a month.

If you own a McDonald's franchise and are looking for a way to recoup energy from something you used to dispose of, fantastic. But it takes a steady supply to make it worth doing, and the hippie crowd is hot on the heals of FOG sources now.

By the way, what else is the engine doing? If it's just there to generate heat and power, just go out and buy an alternator, like those used on regular portable diesel generators, and figure a way to couple it up to the VW engine. then generate as much power as you can so that your engine is more loaded, selling the excess back to you utility as TonyS suggested.

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#8
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Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 4:55 PM

And with shortages created by demand, this free energy source now has value

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#9
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Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/06/2011 5:36 PM

Either get an engine/alternator from craigs list that has a dead engine or go to Harbor freight. Get an alternator unit to power up your 115 electrical service and power an appropriate battery charger that is designed for you battery string - load. Woody

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#22
In reply to #7

Re: vw diesel engine running on free fuel

01/07/2011 11:10 AM

A big alternator like those found on Semi Trucks with all the lights!

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#10

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/06/2011 11:13 PM

There are a few factors you will need to work around/ experiment with. If you can bracket pulleys off the out put crank you may be able to add multiple altenaters to run a 12vdc circuit and charge 12 VDC batteries on that circuit. The charge - run cycles will have to be worked out to see how efficient it is.

Many auto yards or sympathetic mechanics may be able to provide the alt.s to you free or really cheap. The diesel torque should be able to turn the biggest 12-14vdc alts available.

what you use the batteries for will determine the charge run cycle. You would have to have a ton of LED run hours to run down a Battery. Start with the LED bank hourly usage rate to determine run charge cycles.

A scout is T L H F C K O C T B C R

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#11

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/06/2011 11:46 PM

Why not simply buy a smaller diesel gen set so you can run your house and not use so much fuel.

excess charges batteries or feeds to grid.

But I think you will find your free fuel may not be free much longer.

I gave up the idea of bio diesel because the Fish and chip shop got greedy and sold oil that was mostly batter waste, it ruined expensive filters and took for ever to get ready to make bio diesel.

Costs became higher than just buying fuel.

But playing around with a motor that is so big is really false economy.

smaller gensets have every thing built in, running a motor for a litre an hour is cheaper than feeding 60 hp. doing nothing.

What do you need to run the house, 5 kw or more, this should be what you base the genset on.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 12:16 AM
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#13
In reply to #11

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 12:54 AM

Lots of good advice on this thread, and this guest has some good points too.

Over all, I like what Bumble had to say. If the OP is an Electric Engineer he should understand even more than I did.

My advice, go with what you have already. Get a generator to fit to your engine and either run it at peak efficiency (to send excess to the grid or batteries) or set up a servo control system to adjust your output to your demand as Bumble said.

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#26
In reply to #11

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 2:42 PM

Good points.

However, it is worth considering that when diesel engines have been available for both car and commercial use (e.g. Daihatsu as Briggs and Stratton) the commercial rating is about half the automotive rating... so this engine might not be as underloaded as it would seem.

It's also worth noting that a large diesel loafing along will have very long life, low vibration and noise as compared to the single cylinder air-cooled diesels in a small (5 kW) generator. Further, in diesels, specific fuel consumption does not increase as dramatically under moderately low load as it does in a gasoline engine, so running this diesel at around 20 hp could still be pretty fuel efficient. And in this case the waste heat is not really wasted (provided that he can actually use it).

In use, he would be wise to pulse the load, rather than running continuously under a low load (and charge the batteries at a high rate during bulk charge, and/or sell the electricity to the power company).

One really needs to know the amount of heat required, and the amount of electrical energy required.

But in any case, the OP could put $299 into a generator head, and $250 into an AC input battery charger, and be in business. At the 8,000 W output (13hp input) continuous rating of the generator, the diesel would last forever. Small diesel gensets cannot be bought for $299. (The charger would be required either way.)

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#18

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 10:03 AM

You may wish to search "Pancake Generators".

There are also wind turbine generators that are also mounted under the hoods of vehicles, belt driven, about 8kW. Just switch in the load as the fuel is available.

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#20

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 10:58 AM

It would certainly be sun energy or wind energy.

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#23

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 12:49 PM

The alternator idea is by far the simplest and most feasible. Who's worried about efficiecy when the BTUs are free? A standard 60-100 AMP automotive alternator with a functioning 14.4 volt regulator (also a nice junk-yard find) will charge a parallel bank of batteries very efficiently and at low cost to boot. All it takes is a bracket and belt and that little diesel should sing a happy tune.

I really am enthused about your water jacket usage. Fantastic idea. It sure beats cutting would and running a boiler.

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#24
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Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 1:47 PM

A standard 60-100 AMP automotive alternator with a functioning 14.4 volt regulator (also a nice junk-yard find) will charge a parallel bank of batteries very efficiently and at low cost to boot.

However, it will not charge his battery bank, in which each sub-bank has 6 batteries in series. The regulator from a junk yard alternator would need to be replaced with an external regulator that can be set to his battery bank voltage. Given the size of his battery bank, you could assume he has significant electrical loads, and it would then make sense to have an alternator designed for higher loads rather than one that is just barely adequate to charge a small automotive battery.

Your "very efficiently" is probably a bit of a stretch. Automotive alternators are some of the least efficient electrical machines.

These things are not magic, and there is a reason that a small car alternator weighs five pounds and a generator better suited to stationary use (like the one garth referenced) weighs 93 -- almost 20 times as much.

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#25

Re: VW Diesel Engine Running on Free Fuel

01/07/2011 1:57 PM

all engine can have a generator run by a belt. a voltage regulator feeds power when the batteries need power. then stop when they are full. check for RPM,s and how much power you get to recharge your battiers. the less moving parts the less loss you get. most of the fuel you use is wasted in heat. by using the heat, you get more energy from the fuel you use. you might need a storage tank so the floor does not ever heat when it is hot or the sun is out. it is called a dump tank. most engines piut out water to hot for pex pipe. and 200 degrees F might be to hot. miximg vallve that takes some of the heat from the engtine and mix's it with the colder water returning will fix that problem. the dump tank is just a cold water tank to hold the extra heat. run all the heat from the engine true a coil in the dump tank. a second coil to your heating system. a mixing valve still might be needed. size, temp outside needs to be looked at.

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