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Meltdown

03/19/2011 12:48 AM

Does anyone know what an actual meltdown is? When the term meltdown is used, does that mean down such as maybe down into the earth? Also, does anyone know how long it takes for the jet stream to reach the west coast of the USA from Japan? Would cold fusion be an approach to controlling this situation?

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#1

Re: Meltdown

03/19/2011 10:21 AM

Your questions leave me cold. How's the HHO search going?

Nuclear meltdown - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are allowed to do independent searches, aren't you?

Jet stream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or, do you just want personal attention?

Cold fusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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#2

Re: Meltdown

03/19/2011 11:30 PM

Not a nuclear scientist? Don't worry.

melt-up and meltdown as same. Meltdown is specially used for nuclear reactors where fuel loses its shape on overheating and control over it to stop chain reaction no longer feasible. Meltdown fuel really need not be molten stuff in a pan like fuel liquid. It is often the cladding that may melt or deform. Fuel need not melt.

uncontrolled nuclear chain reaction leads to explosion by various means. One of them is often seen is Hydrogen production and explosion.As meltdown gives no more control, it can lead to explosion if core is not cooled and separated apart to stop chain reaction.

Not entire core if affected need be affected in meltdown and it is not liquid all out there. Hence, repair is still possible by removing the defective fuel rods or part of the core that is affected. It all depends on the design of the nuclear reactor.

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 2:11 PM

You are on the money. I appreciate that you are helping to inform the confused. The only thing that should be added is that although all melt downs are serious the severity varies greatly from incident to incident. Chernoble meltdown was armageddon causing damage a thousand miles away, in contrast, the one near me at 3 mile island was very limited and caused very little to no damage outside the plant.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 3:01 PM

Nuclear business is a serious business with lots of dirty risks even though it looks very clean most of the time.

Radio isotopes are very valuable for medical diagnostics and cancer treatment and also for various kind of Radiography.

Millions of these radioactive sources are produced as by product even in very small reactor. Fuel reprocessing thus has such multiple range out come.

Not everywhere such disasters are expected. However if they happen as there is a chance for it to happen then obviously such accidents look very dirty and cause serious problem for years to come.

Nuclear power is a show of strength. Many countries like to have it and even risk war with big nations.

It is not simple to understand why some nation is bent on having nuclear power while they have abundant of other natural resources. Perhaps both Government and people are crazy in such countries and wastage of power is just enormous.

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#3

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 9:05 AM

Meltdown is a word used to describe the accidental melting of the core of a nuclear reactor, it refers to either the complete or partial collapse of the reactor core. The correct technical terms are usually 'core melt accident' or 'partial core melt'. A 'meltdown' almost always occurs due to loss of cooling - as in Japan, causing the core to overheat, this in turn damages the structure of the core. In extreme cases - Chernobyl for example the core melted through the core housing and into the spaces below giving rise to the popular misconception that a 'meltdown' refers to the core becoming fluidised and draining away.

I'm more of a gas man than nuclear but hope this helps ;^)

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#4

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 9:13 AM

The term "meltdown" was originally coined to describe a hypothetical event in which a reactor core melted, and melted its way through its reactor vessel and through the surrounding concrete containment structure. The movie The China Syndrome posits this kind of event.

Any core damage short of that used to be called something like "core collapse." For instance, the damage to the core of the damaged reactor at Three Mile Island was described as "core collapse," because the reactor core did not melt its way out of containment or even through the reactor vessel. Now, however, whoever makes these decisions is calling that same incident a "partial meltdown." This is a really stupid move, because it's the old "China syndrome" definition that the public still has in mind when it hears "meltdown." Thus the damaged reactors in Fukushima are said to have undergone "partial meltdowns," even though their containment structures and reactor vessels are not breached. Result: the public are so frightened that people in the USA - over six thousand miles away from the reactors - are paying extortionate prices for monitoring gear and iodine tablets - much of it fake or substandard. Profiteers are now making millions from this semantic abuse.

It seems to be part of a broader trend. When the H1N1 influenza was being hyped, the UN changed the definition of a "pandemic" so that the 'flu, which didn't come anywhere near being a pandemic under the old definition, could be called that. It scared some people. More importantly, it made lots of money for the drug companies when governments began stockpiling millions of doses of the vaccine to fight the "pandemic."

Semantic drift = enhanced profits, so I expect we'll see more of it.

The jet streams move at speeds of up to around 200 mph, so potentially an object entering the jet stream over Japan could reach the west coast in only 30 hours or so. However, the explosions in the reactor buildings were not strong enough to produce a thermal plume raising particles into the jet stream, so the plume from the reactors is traveling with surface winds. Theoretically, it has reached the West Coast by now, and there are claims of actual readings of excess radioactivity, but the only numbers published show a level barely over background, detectable only with the most sensitive instruments.

Cold fusion, if it exists, would still produce neutrons, which means that it would still produce radioactivity. Exactly how such a phenomenon would be harnessed to produce power is not clear to me. One scenario suggested for more conventional fusion power schemes (inertial or magnetic confinement fusion) calls for the fusion reactor to produce neutrons that breed fissile fuel from "fertile" isotopes like uranium 238 or thorium 232; the fissile fuel is then used in a conventional fission reactor. If that scenario holds, all the usual safety precautions will be needed with fusion-based nuclear power because the delivery end of it will be conventional fission reactors.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 9:37 AM

Thorium is a fast breeder reactor fuel. It is first a blanket material and then real fuel.

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#6

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 10:13 AM

Lets make certain we keep things in perspective. Some "expert" on the TV stated that if you ate the contaminated spinach every day for one year, it would be the equivalent to having 10 X-rays. So this contamination is on a continuous scale and they really do not know that there is a specific break point where it is dangerous to the body. They just do everything possible to keep it extremely low and so far that is true for everyone except those workers struggling within the plant. They are really, most likely, giving any longevity they might have had over to resolving the issue. Great people!

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#9

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 7:18 PM

"Meltdown" is a term that is poorly defined as the media uses it. The media reports almost seem designed to cause panic in the public, and the word "meltdown" got caught up in that.

Radiation detection on the west coast is in the same category--media hype. Their "radiation detected" seems to mean anything, even just barely above background. The radiation levels in Japan, outside the plant, are quite low. The limits are set so low that it is easy to exceed them! The USA does not have to worry at all.

How does "cold fusion" enter the picture; it seems to me to be totally unrelated.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 9:18 PM

Radiation outside may look low but Radioactivity may enter body through food chain or by inhaling and can deposit in bone and tissue and can become serious thing as only 1 micro gram inhaled activity of Plutonium is at best permissible for the body in entire life time. Closer the radiation source is greater damage it can do. Inside the body it is going to be the worst kind.

People were seen cooking food on the road and perhaps they may be getting contaminated food also. Canned food that was packed of on earlier date should be OK. picking agriculture or milk from live stock is bad. I think contamination is very limited as it has not caused any serious international alarm yet. Radiological people were seen scanning people for Radiation contamination so they are doing their job properly. They are not leaving things to chances as people are picking material from scrap all over.

I think more problem is that they have no place in which they can immediately move in all these affected people and give them shelter, food, and care for sanitation. They are all in the open now.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 11:33 PM

Please check out the site: www.hiroshimasymdrome.com/fukushima-accident-updates.html.

It reports (March 20 update) that contaminated crops are no problem at all. First, the contamination is extremely low level. Second, it is an extremely fine (invisible) dust externally deposited on the crops, and can simply be washed off.

Radioactive nuclides dissolved in water is also so low level that drinking it will cause no problem. However, the contaminated water can be put through filters to easily remove the contamination.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Meltdown

03/21/2011 12:10 AM

Fine radioactive dust?

If washed off then it goes into soil and water and again in food chain. As I said only micro grams level are critical and these water and soil contamination going to be problem. How serious is the problem will be known after we get some data. Short lived isotopes will nearly disappear in few weeks.

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#11

Re: Meltdown

03/20/2011 10:22 PM

"Meltdown" is that term whcih defines the critical point separating our insatiable quest for unlimited energy from our inherent fear of being held accountable for our desires.

Meltdown was quite deadly in the mid-20th century. Despite politically-motivated attempts to forestall future meltdowns, sadly, neither engineering nor science could find a way to do anything but enhance the potential for the destruction caused by future meltdowns.

Then, there was the nuke...

Just kidding? Fission was FatBoy; fusion is the H-bomb, triggered by fission, but only limited once initiated by what, cooling ponds, control rods, or CO2 injection? Experts aside, fission is nuclear child's play, and "meltdown" is essentially an attitude problem in the sandbox society therein.

Be forewarned.

BUT before losing sleep over the latest eMail/web/iPhone/WFTE report of a "plume" - before betting the farm on the latest eMailed ameliorations thereof - please see the "clarification" at http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/fallout.asp and either sleep-tight or wring your hands, your choice.

Would cold fusion be an approach to controlling this "situation?" What situation had you in mind, that of unlimited demand for energy consumption within the constraint of infallible safety of enery production? Do you mean that implausible situation?

Or could you mean the "situation" of millions of humans in what had just weeks ago been an advanced civilization, now displaced, hungry, cold, fearful, disconnected for probably the first time in their lives from any other lives than those they could only see and thus become, what - frightened and somehow "meltdown" disconnected - all because of an earthquake and a tsunami which also incidentally affected some nuclear power plants?

To which do you refer? Which meltdown elicits your immediate concern?

1. Are you warm, fed, sheltered, electrified - yeah, well, maybe electrified is obvious but my point might not be only because of my own inability to beseech you to LISTEN UP?

2. Or is it the meltdown disproving "modern" society's presumption of unlimited consumption with minimal consequence that concerns you?

Cold fusion, my posterior orifice. Once perfected, there will be an extra-galactical glitch that dooms that "solution" to, well, whatever...

Be an OPTIMIST.

Think "glass half full."

Shop only the best sales; drink bottled water; turn on the lights when you get home; put out the trash but make sure to call in the cat; click on the tube but NEVER, no not EVER, CONSIDER WHAT YOU MIGHT HAVE TO DO IF you had to consider what was meant by the sorry little phrase "melt-down."

Think nothing of it. THINK NOTHING OF meteors, ELE's, my God, what if...

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#17
In reply to #11

Re: Meltdown

03/21/2011 4:09 PM

Hey euhodos, thanks for the answer. Didn't want you to think that I was to far out there. This is related to cold fusion, I'm not educated in the field. I like to think more in terms of separating the h and o in water to supply supplemental power and heat to my house. Similar to the generation systems that produce some power in your basement. Something like using to heat to heat a hot heat system, or for helping my diesel in my vehicle burn a little more efficiently, or to make coal burn a little more efficiently. And of course with this type of thinking, we probably would never have made it to the moon.

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#14

Re: Meltdown

03/21/2011 9:25 AM

In the early 80s I worked at a nuclear plant construction project. One of the last ones built. The reactor was housed in a concrete containment building 3 ft thick, 180 ft in diameter and 220 ft high. This building was surrounded by another building of same thickness with an air space between them. The building was poured with a movable form, one continious pour with no joints. The reactor was small compared to the contaiment building, probably a cylinder 10 ft in diameter and 30 ft high. It sat on a concrete slab 35 feet thick and below the slab was 35 feet of special sand. The reactor was 80 feet below ground level.

The theory is that in a complete meltdown the reactor would melt through the slab and into the sand. The slab and sand is a large heat sink and the reactor would be encapusled in a block of glass over 100 feet below grould level.

Of course a lot can happen before this stage is reached, but even the worst case would not be as catastorphic as the media hype we see.

As a side note 1 ton of Uranium is equal to 3 million tons of coal

A ton of UR is about a 15" cube

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Meltdown

03/21/2011 10:44 AM

I hope that you are referring to Seabrook power plant in NH. I toured it the day before fueling started. In general I was very impressed by the redundant safety features and the integrity of construction. The piping supports were all designed for extreme earth quake conditionds (I lived in NH for a decade and never heard of an earthquake past or present). The wall penetrations were also as safe as humanly possible. Since I am an engineer and have specified these types of things for industrial and commercial buildings I was impressed by how far these were beyond anything that I have ever seen before. I believe that I was informed that the building could withstand the impact of the largest existing commercial jet as well as the fastest military fighter plane. I was saddened that the PSNH had to go banckrupt to build it, purly because of the Boston lawyers to make a killing opposing its construction. I still believe that no new reactors were built after this not because of 3 Mile Island, but beacuse of what lawyers did here.

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#16

Re: Meltdown

03/21/2011 12:57 PM

The unit I worked at was Waterford 3. It doesn't have the usual cooling towers you see at most plants becuase they use water from the Mississipi river for cooling.

I worked for the engineering management company and had the opportunity to see all units. I was also impressed by all the safety features and this was over 25 years ago. I can't help but think that since then, as techonology has advanced, that some of the original systems have been upgraded to current standards.

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#18

Re: Meltdown

03/26/2011 10:20 PM

If you ever wanted to kill an industry, just whisper a small hint to the News Media that, just maybe, something might be wrong. And sure as hell, CNN will run with it, quoting their experts, who can only speculate as to what is actually happening. But, it sure did boost their ratings even if it was irresponsible reporting.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Meltdown

03/26/2011 11:09 PM

The media reports seem to be designed to cause panic! They use words like "if" and "could." And then some people interpret them as absolutes!

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