Aircraft Warning Light for Hot Area

Why would you want to do this? -200c?

I think that means give or take, not plus and minus. I don't know the rules for aircraft anti-collision lights, but before I go and google it...It sounds like this would be for a refinery or such. I assume there is already a product for this.

I really don't think people take the time to read all of the posts on a forum. Twice after my initial post, someone comes up with the genius notion that the OP meant give or take, essentially. One gets two votes for GA. Genius, pure genius. If I were to put that much thought into an answer I would read the previous answers first. But really, what do you want for free?

I went back and gave you a GA. I gave a GA answer to somebody else out of frustration (or maybe relief) after I read all the comments about -200 degrees C--I can't believe people bothered to make an issue of that--it's pretty clear from the context of the original question that he really meant 200 +/- <something> degrees as opposed to +/- 200 degrees.

I get that, but since the OP said "flare" and "melt" I assumed "give or take" for their +/-. It seems that a lot of people who do not have English as a primary language post here, so I have to go into that mode.

Also, I didn't know of a tower which needed aircraft anti-collision lights which spewed -200 C effluent which would melt the light.

Exactly.. I've been saying this for some time now.. We that can speak english as our mother tongue, MUST make allowances for those that don't.

We have (hopefully) the intelligence & command of our native language to be able to understand what they are asking.. so let's not condemn, as our use of their language is probable zero.. so who's the clever one??

If you would refer back to my first response post and a subsequent one which was a ponderence as to why people don't read all of the posts before responding, you would see I am in the group assuming a hot area, not a cold area.

If you meant to reply to someone else, try the reply button on their post, not the reply button for a previous thread.

I assumed the OP's first language was NOT English, as I previously stated.

And as far as "+/-" before or after, as a modifier, I think that question has been thoroughly vetted out on this post alone. Apparently, none of us have a great command of the "English" language.

;-)

Re: If you meant to reply to someone else, try the reply button on their post, not the reply button for a previous thread.

If you are replying to me, and my post #25, note that my post #25 was in reply to post #21, which was not written by you.

damn, this board always screws me up...the order they appear on the screen is not the order of reply...I apologize.

No problem--no need for an apology.

CR4 did the best they could. Both your post (#22) and my post (#25) were in response to post #21, so they are indented the same, with yours coming first because it is an earlier number and an earlier time--not sure which takes precedence if it can ever be different.

Thanks...

I forget the requirements for aircraft warning lights--how close to the top of the stack must they be?

I suspect you'll have to use some heat shielding, and then use several light to get 360 degree coverage (as the heat shielding for each light will block part of the coverage).

This is the way it is done at the top of tall smoke stacks.

Good Luck, Old Salt

The best source is the manufacturer

Again, getting back on subject, that link is a good example. Thanks, GA for that.

Yes, you're right. GA

You do want the lights to fit ONTO a near by tower?

You say that the light fittings you have sourced are not in your opinion suitable.. however have you measured the temp at those towers and can say with confidence that the temp at the near by towers exceed the temp rating of the light fittings or is it too hot to get close to the towers to collect an exact temp reading?

Lets assume that the towers are steel construction and the temp is in the range you mention.... someone correct me here.. would the steel not be affected by the high temp?

Further more.. ALL the gas flares I've seen all over the world.. I have NEVER, NEVER seen another construction within 200meters of a flare. Even offshore in the North Sea, the flares are designed to be out on a boom and elevated well above the highest point of the platform.

Also.. if its a gas flare.. when the hell do you switch it off? Are you on a flight path? How high is the tower? What are the local FAA/CAA regulations? and what pilot in his right mind would fly near a gas flare?

Many years ago, sitting in my first offshore induction training just prior to going offshore for the first time in the North Sea with Shell, the instructor asked the class what as the purpose of the flare?

I immediately said. "So the helicopter can find the rig in the dark!"

I think a gas flare is a big enough warning light.. yes?

petrochemical project is going on now, the constructor installing air craft warning light very near to flare. and the idea is the warning light has to be available All the time wether fire is there or not(flare off)

Re: I think a gas flare is a big enough warning light.. yes?

Not if is is not burning. (And many flares do not burn all the time, and there is still a stack that can be hit.)

True.. but if they are not burning gas, they are not producing gas, so why have a flare?

ALL oil fields producing oil, produce gas, unless they have a LGN plant then that the last thing they will do is burn it.

But you missed my statement that in all the oil fields I've worked it because of the heat NO-ONE build that close to the flare.

What if H2S is also produced, plus other dangerous vapours that are there will not only affect the area but also be a danger to staff working on this tower and if there is maintenance required. Yes I know that you can have PTW's and the like, but why?

I have worked in oil field in 15 different countries and where there is a flare it is burning.. granted not always at full bore (but most of the time).. but it is burning... AND no other structure anywhere near it.

I just find it different/out of the ordinary that someone would design a flare, and then decide to place in proximity to that flare, a tower (steel?) and then state here that they need low level aircraft warning lights to withstand ±200C for that construction!

Again how close is this tower to the flare? Besides the lights.. what is the tower for.. what type of equipment will it be used for and will that equipment be able to stand the temperature the OP mentioned? If not, then why have the tower in the first place?

Re: But you missed my statement that in all the oil fields I've worked it because of the heat NO-ONE build that close to the flare.

You should work somewhere other than an oil field. Flares are uses in lots of other processes, including in various processes near a steel mill--for example, flares near coke ovens or their chemical processing facilities.

There, the flares are at the top of stacks, and the stacks are part of the main facility, with possibly other stacks nearby, at higher or lower elevation (or not).

Ahh but I have.... I have worked in a steel works that at one time was the largest in europe, on the coke oven and in the steel plant, and a steel mill in Saudi..and ALL the flares were WAY over there, on their little lonesome!

God in His wisdom gave us two eyes.. but he only gave a few the instructions!

Re: and ALL the flares were WAY over there, on their little lonesome!

Interesting. Different than my experience. And these flares were all near grade as opposed to at the top of a stack?

Yes, in this forum, we come from different backgrounds, different countries with different stories... its good to find out how its done somewhere else....

"And these flares were all near grade as opposed to at the top of a stack?"

not sure what you're asking here...

Where I've seen gases flared off is typically high in the air--at the exhaust of a stack (or just a sturdy pipe) standing up in the air.

That stack is sometimes tall enough to be an aircraft hazard, thus needing aircraft warning lights (unless it is very close to a taller stack).

To be a hazard to aircraft it has to be over 200ft as in the case of the UK CAA, the minimum allowed height for security aircraft (military and/or police) is 500ft. Civil aircraft cannot, should not drop below 1000ft during normal flight, only when on finals.

Typically flares are at a height of over 10ft, I've seen then at 30 plus feet and taller... and I've also seen them in a pit.. so it really depends on who designed them.

There are also rules in the CAA for where you can place tall constructions.. there is exclusions zones in flight paths and around aircraft landing areas. I say, aircraft landing areas as that will include any area that any type of aircraft will attempt to land.. airports, graded strips in the desert etc.

so really its all down to the designer

But here is the question.. why don't HV transmission pylons have lights on each one?

Experimental, light , and instrumentless aircraft have a ceiling limit of 1,000 feet flying under visual flight rules.

Here's one more link, http://www.gba-flares.com/ancilliaries3.htm. Now it's done for me. It's time for the OP to do the research. OP, try Googling- "aircraft obstruction lighting for flare stacks", you should find a supplier that can offer solutions for your problem.

DJ

thank's a lot MR DJ this is very useful information

Brich, in petrochem facilities the flare stack is there to burn off any in-process chemicals that may need to be released due to a process upset/accident/shutdown. They don't burn all the time, only when something happens that they need to vent the in-process products. So there is a lot of time in which the flares are idling. Just the other day the Baytown/Texas City petrochem/refinery complex lost power due to a substation transformer that blew and every flare stack in the area was burning like mad. Flare stacks aren't just for onshore/offshore production facilities. and besides, these days most producers try to re-inject that gas to maintain formation pressure so they don't even flare it all the time anymore.

here is a picture of the emergency shutdown flares from that upset.

http://www.texas-fire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Texas-City-Flares.jpg

thanks for the heads up.. however as you said.. "Baytown/Texas City petrochem/refinery complex".. which is in the USA, and (and I'm not trying to be funny) as we all know, there is a different set of local and state regulations at work there compared to the rest of the world.

Now with that said.. I also stated in my comment.. "oil fields".. not refineries and the like. Yes, flares as you mention are used for emergency procedures (no argument there).. if not, then you have another refinery going up in flames. But are these flares not somewhat smaller than the other structure around them, with warning lights on?

At the sharp end of the oil producing process, that is, getting it out of the ground... the separators remove a large portion of the gas, water & solids. The water is injected back.. sometimes, if its cleaned to within an inch of its elements holding together, not gas. So the gas must go somewhere.. do you not agree?

With the absence of the OP to enlighten us all, as to what he is using the tower for, is the flare in a refinery etc, etc, we are discussing his post mainly based on conjecture.. we don't know all the facts.

However, with our collective knowledge we can as we are doing here.. discuss it until we get our pensions.

I've just tried "googling" "refinery photos"... great night time pics, all of which show the refinery lit up like a huge Christmas tree..... having a private pilots licence, the glare from an installation like that even in a cloudy night would out do any red aircraft warning lights... that's not to say that are not a legal requirement of the FAA/CAA and they should be installed to comply. The law is the law!!

No actually in all the refineries around here the flare stacks are quite high, probably one of the higher structures in the plant. BP had an explosion and fire at it's Texas City facility that killed quite a number of people and they were using a low level vent stack instead of a tall flare stack and that was the cause of the explosion. They don't use them any more, nobody else in the industry did, they were the last holdouts. BP is one of the least safe companies around if you ask me. Actually the OP I thought made it clear this was a refinery/petrochem facility.

The OP wrote:

dear all, could anybody help me to find aircraft warning light for hot area nearby tower for flare (+/- 200 celcius)

I'm guessing he knows enough about his plant to know that the flare is on a tower ("tower for flare"). He might also have checked with the right authorities to know that, for the height of his tower, he needs aircraft warning lights.

If you want to redesign and rebuild his plant to have a much lower flare (e.g., at grade), well, propose that...

Hi,

I am working on an Oil platform and we have a flare stack, But as most of the time we are injecting our waste gas back to the same formation, our flare is not always burning,(We are the first in the State of Qatar to have Zero Flaring. So we need Aviation light fitting suitable to withstand 200 c. Present light fitting we have is only 50 C and last for about two years by then the inside fitting gets damaged, some times due to our injection compressor failing we have to flare the gas or at black out time. So if any one knows about Aviation light fitting suitable to withstand 200C do let me know.

Hi armstrong, welcome to CR4, take a look at my posts 8 and 38, I'm sure one of the links might have what you looking for. One vendor supplies lighting rated for 200C.

Good Luck, Dan

Re: Lets assume that the towers are steel construction and the temp is in the range you mention.... someone correct me here.. would the steel not be affected by the high temp?

Not significantly at 200 degrees C, and if it were, or if the temperature were up high enough to be a significant factor, they'd (obviously?) have to use a better material.

And the temperature in the nozzle (i.e., the stack) will be less than in the flaming flare above it, although I'm guessing that has already been considered in mentioning the temperature as 200 degrees C and not something much higher.

Thank you for that.. however as steel melts at 1370 degrees C (2500°F), at what temp does it start to suffer from prolonged exposure to high heat, and exposure to nasty chemicals like H2S, (yes I knows its heaver than air and will eventually fall to the ground).. and we are only assuming that it is a tower and it is made of steel!!

I'm still not convinced that placing any structure near a flare is a good idea. I've been looking at photos of refineries in the US and Saudi.. they have the flares standing all on their own... surrounded by sand...

But I love a healthy debate.. and reading other point of views.. I'm sure that the OP will get his high temp light fittings and all will be well with the world!!

depends on the alloy, and most flares have a high enough gas velocity that the flare actually "detaches" somewhat from the burner which helps protect the burner.

+/-200 deg C it must be for moon.. I think OP means only +200 deg. C as it is near flare tower.When flare is on then no need for light, but when flare is off then it should be switched automatically on and then the temp. would be suffiently low.

switch on autmatically? it is not a matter off or on..but the problem is wheter any light can survive with those hot environment..even though you just put it there without switching ON.

http://www.airport-suppliers.com/supplier/Delta_Obstruction_Lighting/

Consider that the warning light does NOT have to be right at the top of the stack, you could place three of them 120 degrees apart a few feet below the top of the flare stack in order to get them down below the superheated air.

another link

http://www.gba-flares.com/ancilliaries3.htm

Only relative elevation matters.

You can offset the light a considerable lateral distance to be in a lesser temperature zone.

How about instead of mounting a bulb on the stack where it is subject to the high temperatures, you mount lasers a fair distance away and aim them at the tower so the reflected light serves as the warning beacon? You could conceivably even apply highly reflective material to the tower so that it reflects the laser light well.

You'd probably need to have three or four lasers, coming from different directions.

Hi!!

I work for an italian company that supplies LED Aircraft Warning Lights with Exd bodies.

Our beacons are certified and heat resistant, I'm sure that our products can meet your need.

For further information visit our website www.luxsolar.com or contact me, I'll give you detailed information.

Bye!! :)

Martina

CR4 Admin - email address removed

From the CR4 Rules: Do not post phone numbers or email addresses. The CR4 Admin will delete all phone numbers and email addresses posted in threads or comments. You can share this information via the CR4 internal messaging system.