Not Many Questions

Perhaps the world is running out of questions.

GA. shall we start asking silly questions each other?

Who knows, maybe the CR4 search engine really does work...

You are right. In case of sily questions we advise OP to 'Google' or search in CR4. Also home work questions are discouraged.

As long as I'm at it, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the current moderation team for allowing some of us to devolve into complete idiots.

This is how we learn.

The fact that some of us are engaged in silly backbiting, doesn't seem to detract from the fact that the serious questions still get answered.

All is well.

It could be the loss of jobs/projects to "other" countries that may just not have open internet access. Or maybe most of the questions/answers have been Googled.

Though it could be the slow worlds economy. Not as much work, projects, etc.

Amy other ideas?

Maybe I should set up a CR4 account for my 6 year old son. He certainly hasn't run out of questions. Sometimes out of the blue he will start "Daddy, how come ....." then look around the room for a long time and spot something he can ask about "....tooth brushes have the white thing-a-ma-jiggers on the end that move when you put them on your teeth?"

Kids. Wait for those questions your not ready for ....there coming...

yes, i know. My 10 year old daughter has already come up with a few. Fortunately, I can defer most of those to my wife.

He, He... One of our neighbors has three boy's two in the "why" stages. A few weeks back, Another neighbor an 18yr boy who has long hair "Think skateboarder". The two boy's Hounded him for a couple of day "are u a boy or a girl", "u look like a girl", "u don't sound like a girl" They wore him out. To everyone else around we bugged him for a week!

Good luck with your kids and have fun!

Thanks....my kids are a blast, even when they are a pain in my a$$.

I am curious about the exchange from 2007, which was before my time. Who were the "Gang of Four (±)" back in the good old days? The archive of your posts seems to go back to about 10/2010.

I note that someone OT'd this excellent answer, evidently to prevent it from being tagged as a GA. Maybe that person would care to offer a reply and identify themselves. Let's see how long this will take ...

I only joined last year so I missed most of the fun. However, I have some experience of getting ragged by the regulars. My alleged offense was spamming, because in the course of discussing a problem I referred to one of my patents. I got the sense that the merits of my case didn't matter because I was in for a hazing.

The Daily Digest usually leads to a thread where I can learn something interesting. Not just technical advice from an expert, but also life lessons from interesting people in interesting places doing interesting things. Like most Americans, I don't get a chance to hear from the rest of the world, particularly India. So for me the signal-to-noise ratio on CR4 is acceptable.

I guess it will take about 1.5 days, and yes, I would now care to identify myself: Eugene R. Walker, aka Tornado.

At first, I was playing a bit of a hunch, anticipating that I might later come in contrary to OoBE's plaint in post 13. By now several unanswered posts have confirmed my hunch, so I stand by that vote.

I don't know why (or even if) the number of daily questions has declined, but OoBE seems to think his explanation is obvious, or perhaps even the only one. Unfortunately, he still hasn't given any details or references to his 2007 experience (before I was around). Thus I classified his post as innuendo at best, and hence OT. (But by now, maybe I'm just part of the "gang.")

In my post 22, I proposed another explanation for the (possibly) declining number of questions.

While there may be some sort of "gang," the worst I have seen is some abruptness and/or sarcasm, but not generally accusations of lying, as in OoBE's post 69. In 76, I said that went a bit too far, but have received no reply.

As for "gangs," we might discuss a "safety nanny gang" that also seems to be on board....

I did a bit of searching

the only posts from OBE in 07 were under his threads & blogs

I didn't find anything out of the ordinary

I for one do follow links

Hi OBE,

I understand where you're coming from. Although I don't know if it's so much cruelty, as much as just impatience with some threads that just make no sense. I try to avoid the mob sessions.....................they really are a waste of time.

I've also noticed that very few of us are completely guilt free. There are many instances here, where a person feels so passionately about a certain side of an issue, that any disagreement or opposing view is taken to be a personal attack. This feeling is often times what starts the real arguments.

For example, I was recently on a thread in which there was much disagreement. The OP took the disagreement personally, and actually ended up being the one that made things personal, by saying that Anonymous Hero was no longer worthy of his respect. He carried his anger further, by saying than anyone that disagreed with him had no business being an engineer and should get out of the field.

A passionate feeling on a topic is good. When the passion runs so deep, that any opposing opinion is assumed to be an attack, it doesn't take long for things to get out of hand.

Yeah, you know what? Nobody is going to follow those links. Except maybe your boys. No body cares. You don't need to present evidence in your case and try to lead us down a twisty road. Everyone knows who you people are. Most aren't up to exerting the energy required to stand up for the people that are abused on this forum. The humanitarian streak in me happens to be a little more obvious, so I do stand up for them and I do stand up against the bullies. That doesn't make me better than them. Maybe I just have more time.

Go file an appeal or something, if that's easier for you to do than simply being respectful to innocent but perhaps niave people that don't know as much engineeing facts as you do.

You're correct. I apologize. I'm done. Although back and forth bickering like this is a different issue, it's equally unattractive to the rest of the members. I was wrong in carrying it on.

I think this is an important thread, and I don't want to turn people away from it.

GA

"Although back and forth bickering like this is a different issue"

Isn't this exactly what your post #13 introduced into the topic as a reason for "Not Many Questions"?

Since when, you have generated more posts than any other contributor (9 to nearest 5), resisting any who fail to embrace your theory - which in itself is a thinly veiled attack on the ethics of other members.

In that light, All of your posts seek 'uproar', and half have been outright insults.

So what other outcome did you seek to create?

Not this one obviously; "I think this is an important thread, and I don't want to turn people away from it"

Now I would not normally comment on this 'outcome', were it a random aberration (bad day) of some member, but you are habitual and this is just another thread you have taken over, imposed your theory, for no tangible reason, and driven into 'mud slinging'.

As for your 'bully/gang/old boys club/conspiracy' theory: I think all credibility that wasn't self extinguished by Moose and I are a gang, is certainly gone to dust with Kramarat, AH and Nelson Hozman (3 posts, join 07/14/11) as 'old buddies'.

And I would like to add;

I applaud Kramarat for his self restraint in the face of your provocations.

I'm not trying to argue, nor do I want to.

Unless admin starts eliminating all but basic textbook engineering questions and answers, ideological differences will crop up................there are no winners and losers.............bullies and victims. At least not in my mind.................just differences of opinion. It can get heated at times. (I meant to say enraged in my last post)

I've said this before. I have friends in the real world that are all over the ideological map. We get in arguments...............sometimes loud ones.............we are never not friends.

Maybe it's time to eliminate all posts that could possibly hurt anyone's feelings. That would be interesting.

I'll make an attempt to only post to threads that I agree with. If we all do the same, the arguing should stop. We'll just agree on everything and give each other GAs.

Personally, I've enjoyed the diversity of threads and blogs on here. Some that don't strictly fit into engineering, but interesting topics nonetheless.

The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®

Perhaps it's the meaning of, "discussion", that is misunderstood.

Amen.

Speaking of the big lie oft repeated

Why don't you enlighten us?

who are you people?

you have accused me of being part of some gang on more than one thread

Who is in this gang you speak of?

GA. I share your reasons for participating. When things get messy I tend to leave the mudslingers to sling mud, and will unsubscribe when it gets silly. I have to admit to getting annoyed with those who prefer to sling mud and get personal, rather than addressing the technical points in question and engaging in serious dialogue (and answering difficult or awkward questions that contradict ones point of view), but I am no longer as naive as to believe that ignoring these people will encourage them to go away. Like our beautiful UK weather (!?!?!?), it's just something we have to live with, and we do not necessarily have to allow it to spoil the community.

"That's the whole trouble. You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful, because there isn't any. You may think there is, but once you get there, when you're not looking, somebody'll sneak up and write "Fuqk you" right under your nose" J. D. Salinger

_{(spelling of one of the greatest American writers adjusted per FAQ)}

I share your reasons for being here

One of the things I'm interested in is the way groups interact

CR4 mirrors the group dynamics you find in the technical sections of many enterprises [there is usually not quite this much diversity]

these kinds of people tend to be smart, somewhat independent, some can even border on stubborn & there are always plenty of big egos to go around

the failure analysis on threads, can feel personal to some, it isn't on my part

I don't think there are gangs

there are certainly ad hoc groups of like minded members that can form

after some time you will find certain members on certain types of threads

some members will express similar views on some subjects

I wouldn't consider this to be gang activity

when your argument is weak, it's easy to try to change the subject, by crying persecution

another classic sign of a weak argument is to accuse your opponent of the tactics you are employing

I think we can all decide the reality for ourselves

"I think we can all decide the reality for ourselves"

This verses the 'puppet' connotation, is the basic reason I find the "gang" allegation so offensive.

Aside from it being 'vaporous' when it comes naming the membership.

And aside from it being such a corrosive seed in the minds of ... well everybody, including Admin, looking at 'independent agreement' on a topic.

When you realise it took only one member to sow this 'seed' and the recent uptake has exponentially uncreased 'uproar', it 'maturing' a bit of a worry in CR4 future terms.

On the bright side, we now know "beavis and butthead" and some AP are apparently a "gang".

I'm just not having much success finding their profile pages.

And, as, everyone knows from "Gang of Four", there must be a "Mindermast" lurking somewhere 'pulling their strings'.

Or, that is what we are being conned into doing - suspecting/accusing each other of being 'puppets' by 'puppets'?

Interesting that you should mention these threads being around after we're dead.

I hope CR4 continues on. As a sort of old dude with a four year old daughter, I'd like to think that this is a place that she can come to get to know me when I'm gone.

It ain't always pretty, but I want her to know me as the person that I am when she gets older, not just the person that is forced into being a responsible parent. ( Not forced into it, but you know what I mean).

If I'm not here when she reaches adulthood, she can come get to know me better right here. I hope that if she is interested enough to read my posts, in the end she will like me.

For me, CR4 is much more than the founders imagined.....................it's a repository for my thoughts.

Kramarat -- Do what I do. When you put together a post her that you think is worth saving take it off line into a Word doc and do your editing and spell check there. Save it into a "Kramarats CR-4" folder and then paste the edited version back into the CR-4 message block to submit it. Periodically download the folder into a USB drive and store it in an envelope with your daughter's name on it and the words "read this, DAD". ......Ed Weldon

Thanks Ed.

I haven't really contributed anything that's groundbreaking or particularly important.

If CR4 is still around, I'd like for her to see my posts in context. At the very least, she'll see that a lot of times, adults are just a bunch of kids that try to act like they know what they're doing.......................her Dad included.

Speaking of kids, I see someone is still busy at work chipping away at my GA count. Don't stop until you feel that your work is done.

"....someone is still busy at work chipping away..."

Hmmmmmm...... The referenced organism would make an interesting study under my microscope, suitably stretched out and pinned down in order to properly fill the view field. I do think, though, I'd have to hunt around for those old dusty 20x eyepieces in order to identify its brain.... EW

If someone feels they need to do that to obtain gratification, I figure they need the good feeling they get, far more than I need the GAs.

I followed the links - to a thread I unsubscribed from some time ago because it all got too personal.

I'm definitely NOT one of the "boys" - and it's interesting to see who you regard as being "The Gang"...a bunch of individuals with string opinions I've seen on the site for years, and all of whom I've seen apologise when proved wrong...

I think you really struck a nerve that needed attention (and not just any one or group). I recently expressed a similar response on a post, not in defense of a poor response, but the demeaning vitriol that followed it. When we don't have something good or useful to say, it is always best to just say nothing at all.

If we all have given pause to our community image as a result of your response, you have done your job well.

Simplest reason for not too many questions is,that many of us (that include me) Are not tolerant enough to the question's like this.

I wonder about another problem: grotesquely silly posts that are not deleted, and that make the CR4 site look very unprofessional. A recent offender is zen, and in the past we have had AGuest and portugal philip, as well as any number of over-unity enthusiasts and such like.

I try to be relatively tolerant of student questions, even homework. After all, everyone starts out naive. But there is naive, and then there is NAIVE. "Give me the document on boiler design" is a bad request; there is no such document, and a full reply would require furnishing a textbook.

Why don't we appear to have a Time sensor in Us? (or do we?)

Chris, we do have a time sensor in us. Google "circadian rhythm". There are three cycles that affect us, and the effect is strongest, both positively and negatively, when the cycles synch periodically. You can also teach your body to synch your resting pulse rate with the clock, allowing your subconscious to signal you after a preselected number of heartbeats. I do not have much success when I am active due to variabiliy in my pulse rate.

This is my opinion... but I'd suggest that it's okay to repost very old questions. Of course you run the risk of attracting the wrath of old-timers that will point out the error of your ways, in no uncertain terms. But, I would think that if you rephrase the question, you mention that it was already discussed before, and that you make mention of certain facts that were already established and also mention exactly what aspects were not covered to your satisfaction... you would be perfectly alright in recycling certain old questions. Not from last week, mind you... but from years gone by, I guess.

The other option would be to just post to the old question. But I understand that it may not get the attention that you'd hope for, and be missed by many people.

Of course old topics can be discussed again. I think what many are referring to when they say "search first" is the fact that some people come on looking for basic definitions, standards, comparisons, and the like.

Sometimes questions are posed as "define x" in the context of a homework-type question. That answer can be found elsewhere without a the added benefit of opinion. If the question is posed as "define x as it pertains to y in my machine shop and why I should be applying it" - that's where opinion and past experience is relevant and helpful.

It's absolutely a good idea to create a new question thread if a question wasn't answered before.

GA

A fact focused, emotionally neutral, Socratic response, even to not activating the links.

I'll just try again, nothing much has changed. It's the first page and I wonder how long this is going to go on for.

Anyway for me CR4 is a microcosm of the world we live in. Every one has his/her place and most of the time when problems are solved it is done very fast and in a friendly atmosphere. If that is something to go buy CR4 is a total success, at least for me.

Now to the CR4 mirror image being a reflection of the planet as a whole. It's just that way. All types, shades of color, religious, political background, location and on and on. I think it is an over the top expectation to try and get all into one mold. Not here nor in a suburb of Karachi or (_{^{Fill in here}}), not anywhere, not even in the small family unit.

Although there is a huge choice of other forums to take part in, this place is still my favorite. I mean I could spend hours on artists websites but having the ^{heads in the clouds} syndrome is not one of my favorites. Chatter for chatters sake? I don't think so.

Pragmatic views and reflections upon them can be entertaining and trains ones skill in shutting up or making a point when one sees that there is even a small chance of bringing an idea or suggestion, solution to the forum.

There is only one member who I will not correspond with and that, in my eyes, is a good outcome. There are a few who will not correspond with me but then again I am a bit controversial at times and even some of my best friends would love to smack me around the head sometimes, not to mention the missus.

We all have our limits and to be made aware of them, in a friendly, constructive way is the name of the game. The more humor introduced the better. A funny remark, even if not OT, is a great tool to stay on track and not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

All in all I believe that many friendships have been formed here and possibly a few success stories in cooperation, collaboration and assistance could be counted. I am still planing to build a black bamboo/ leather self loading crossbow and guess who I am going to ask for help once I find the time?

You got it, that's what we should do, help and teach each other, never mind how mundane a question might be. Just help out the ones that know Eff all about what they are planing. Be friendly (I had my moments, I know) and remember how hard it was to avoid the bully, way back then.

I have heaps of questions but like Chris said, it is a mater of time and how to be and stay in a frame of mind to scratch some surface and satisfy ones curiosity. I watch the scratching bit here most days and thought Not Many Questions was interesting enough to warrant a reply.

Love this place, Ky.

I have to agree with you that it seems that there is a marked decrease in traffic here since I joined 2 years ago. Most likely due to a bunch of factors, all of which have been discussed above, and are very valid.

Probably the worse reason is the gang mentality and their constant sniping. It's happened to me a lot in several threads, with the worse ones happening in the Haiti Shipping Containers blog and the UFO blog. I won't name names (they know who they are, and so do the remaining forum members who witnessed the crappola mudslinging back then), but I think their attacks chased a lot of members away. Oh course, I'm no angel and fought back with tooth and nail, and got reprimanded repeatedly for it. I just couldn't stand peeps constantly questioning my credentials and calling me out onto the carpet. The line was drawn in the sand metaphorically, and when they stepped over the line I declared war as they went to far and didn't offer any public apologies that I insisted on. Probably I was a BIG target for some of them because I'm ex-military and they can't stand the military in any shape or form. Remember, this was happening during the spooling down of Iraq military ops and the spooling up of ops in Crapastan (LOL), and there was a huge (and building) political and public outcry across the nation about our ongoing longterm wars in the SW Asia. As for my attacks back at the perps, my personal defense I believe most likely stems from my Ranger training and background, coupled with a take no prisoners attitude. I just don't take chit....I'll dish it back in Spades if need be. Bad on me, but that's the way the ball bounces.

It, the defamation, got so bad at one point I consulted with my long-time personal attorney and as a result came very very close to filing several lawsuits against the perpetrators as well as GlobalSpec owners and upper management. My attorney was in the advanced process of filing papers in NYS Supreme Court and subpoenaing all necessary GlobalSpec's records, including the names and addresses of the perpetrators. I spent a small fortune for this legal work. anyhow I stopped the legal process after my plans had been revealed here in the Forum and the attacks dwindled quickly. I let it be known to all that I was extremely serious regarding taking legal action. I even took off approximately a month in here and went elsewhere (other online engineering forums) just to cool off the unfortunate situations and further conflagrations.

I eventually came back after the backbiting mostly subsided. the attacks still happen from time to time between members.....mainly due to political differences IMO.....I try to stay out of the limelight and bickering if I can help it. It just isn't worth competing in a spitting contest if you know what I mean. It can wear you down quickly and as a sideline affect your family life.

I think that the powers to be in the Forum need to leverage more authority in regard to "yanking" offenders, either temporarily or permanently. They've been very lax about doing anything to rock the boat with members. I honestly think doing nothing to stop attacks and bickering really scares off newbies in here.....and they elect to avoid the place. That usually happens when un-professionalism conduct prevails, n'est pas?

Just my opinion, based on my unfortunate experiences.

I think that the powers to be in the Forum need to leverage more authority in regard to "yanking" offenders, either temporarily or permanently. They've been very lax about doing anything to rock the boat with members. I honestly think doing nothing to stop attacks and bickering really scares off newbies in here.....and they elect to avoid the place. That usually happens when un-professionalism conduct prevails, n'est pas?

That would be you!

one of the gang who will denigrate any poster who dares to try to educate themselves and insist certain information can only be understood by professionals

You, who would act the wounded party, when are in fact the instigator of the threats & verbal abuse

Please, let's not turn this particular discussion into an attack. It's ok to comment and say "I feel like x" in a general way (especially when it helps explain why you think there are fewer questions posted on CR4). So far everyone's done a good job of not pointing any fingers specifically. Let's try to keep it that way.

Every poster is an "actual member"

Are your or CM's general attacks against the nefarious "gang" any different or better?

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/752615/Re-Not-Many-Questions

The generalized sniveling about student questions are part of misguided efforts to impose more controls, which will further stifle the open exchange of ideas

The removal of guest posting privileges along with the changes in moderation scheme are probably prime factors in the loss of vitality of the forum. It is much easier to break something special, than create or improve it

A good thought. By providing this forum for candid discussion, CR4 is making possible the assembly of the networked investigative tool that will accomplish future technology development. Here you can participate not just in the conception stage, but also the vetting and refining and learning necessary for "reduction to practice." A clear understanding of what has been tried and an honest appraisal of what is known is necessary to tee up a problem so a solution can come to mind.

I also like how you tolerate newcomers, even if they don't at first seem like they have much to contribute. I think we all enjoy, as you do, the excursions beyond what is known or even probable. And if we get interested, we need to know where to learn and what's important for beginners to know.

I hope CR4 can help the US government's new Energy.data.gov site in accomplishing President Obama's objectives for developing manufacturing. See the report of the President's Council of Advisers on Science and Technology (PCAST) dated June 2011. It is also consistent with the President's policy of involving the citizens with finding solutions to technical problems. Crowdsourcing that technical knowledge is what CR4 is, to my knowledge, the world leader in. NineSigma is the other leading resource, that I know of.

The key is that on CR4 the truth has a chance to be heard, most of the time, except when a couple of the trolls OT it. Ad hominem remarks, etc. do not advance the cause of truth, and are not only tedious, but also take time clicking to read them. So count me in the faction that would place a higher value on civility than on indulgence of fragile egos.

I GA'd you, to cancel the OT someone gave you. Like it or not, your post is certainly not Off Topic. Another mis-use of the OT

Well! This question certainly generated lots of answers - mostly unexpected, but probably valid.

After thinking it through, I suspect that the prompt response to "go Google" is probably the big turnoff for people with questions and problems to solve - who probably found CR4 on google in the first place. If they go to ask a question and it tells them to google first, they will go and find another forum.

Good point about civility, no one wants to engage a site where you are immediately flamed. Even if you have thick skin, why waste it, when there are better places to spend your time. I actually thought CR4 had a fairly decent level of civility as a rule, so I guess I missed the worst threads of late.

Seeing as it's summer, there are even fewer questions posted. Good point, time to go back outdoors!

A good answer if ever there was one

I'd settle for quality, not quantity, and that naturally doesn't include OP's only. S.M.

Sorry I have not counted, but the following entry may be illuminative, - one member, obviously of long standing, asked a question,"Is Low-Cost Chinese Labor Affecting Your U.S. Exports? and as you can see below some presumably drunken member answered with abuse. That terminated the discussion as you would expect, so I conclude that the moderator could take a more active role in removing "What a Yacka**ss Dumba**ss" type entries so as to both discourage such fools and hopefully to promote further discussion on that particular subject as others would then feel they would not get abused as well. Geoff Thomas. - 07/15/2011 6:46 AM Steve Melito Guru Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemelito Posts: 3491 Good Answers: 32 Is Low-Cost Chinese Labor Affecting Your U.S. Exports? 07/15/2011 6:46 AM New, small companies or developing countries have typically been accused of competing unfairly against older, larger companies or developed countries. Hey, what did the British think about the low-priced textiles from the American colonies who paid no attention to OSHA or environmental damage, paid little or no (local) tax, had no pensions, had no holidays off and even used slave labor? How could the Manchester spinning mills compete? The answer is history. So is the past prologue? Read the Entry and Join the Discussion Reply Report! Pathfinder Tags: China hvac industry hvac manufacturing HVAC market united states Add your own Tags! leveles Power-User Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 426 Good Answers: 20 #1 Re: Is Low-Cost Chinese Labor Affecting Your U.S. Exports? 07/15/2011 1:27 PM What a Yacka**ss Dumba**ss generally and fundamentally antisocial this guy is, I have nothing to do with. I deny racial connections, I refuse genetic connections. I even refuse mammalian connections. Damn his hide.

It's a bit more complicated than it appears

Moose having been a founding moderator & GS blogger, who has reverted to his given name recently

hi Garthh, I noticed yours as a second reply without content, I don't know what goes on there, but I can't imagine that "Moose" if he has been important in developing CR4, would approve of his drunken self's comment. However, if he does, he will certainly know how to reply to your and my posts, - an apology would go a long way, a justification might inspire some good further discussion.. Cheers, Geoff Thomas.

I don't see that Moose/Steve has a case to answer

Nor do I see you having the right to demand an apology, for anything, from anyone.

Though you might consider apologizing for libelous utterances like "his drunken self's comment"

Good grief, this is meant to be an adult site, not 2 year old tantrum playground feud.

Hi 34 point, it was the leveles person made the comment, not Steve, I really think you should read my first post all the way through, particularly leveles attack on "Steve" (Moose? I thought Garthh was implying levele was Moose, I guess it could be read any way, but Steve was never attacking levele, so if you had read the post, you would have seen that levele was calling your mate Moose bad things, - ie and I quote, "What a Yacka**ss Dumba**ss generally and fundamentally antisocial this guy is, I have nothing to do with. I deny racial connections, I refuse genetic connections. I even refuse mammalian connections. Damn his hide." end of quote. Fine, you support your mate Steve/Moose, he has been attacked by the possibly drunken levele, whom I suggested should apologise but the moderator could have excluded, you now accuse me of accusing Steve of drunken stuff? Measure it twice, do it once my old boss said when I was young, read it twice, answer it once, might be a good rule of thumb for this discussion group! Cheers, Geoff Thomas.

I appreciate that - I just don't see why you would try to make an issue of what you incorrectly thought, or what you incorrectly thought Gathh thought, he having pointed out your incorrectness of thought. Perhaps too subtlety.

For the record; Moose is about as far from my "mate" as any member could be.

That He has no case to answer is just a fact.

I fail to see where you lot get these juvenile fantasies.

"Measure it twice, do it once"

Did you mean "Measure twice, cut once"?

One is clumsy, the other elegant.

And knowing how to make paragraph and punctuate for recitation, would not hurt, given you claim to be an author of some standing.

Hi, 35 point5, I am not making any issue about anything except leveles' words, "What a Yacka**ss Dumba**ss" etc. Measure once do it twice? yes, there is more than just cutting with most jobs, whether you think it elegant or no, but that is possibly a topic for another discussion if it concerns you. Cheers, Geoff.